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Getting started with DCC

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Posted by gregc on Monday, September 26, 2022 5:23 AM

i don't believe your length post properly describes some aspects of DCC.   I provide answers to some of your questions

 

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
I don't know that I agree that locomotive control and other aspects of layout control are automaticly or always separate. That is very much a DCC concept.

sounds like you're saying control is partially built in with DC but not DCC, despite me pointing out that the PSX product, as an example provides support for control though it is used to support locomotive control

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
I have 15 blocks that need detection? How would you do that with DCC? At what cost?

as i just said, could be built into a circuit breaker.  but i'm familiar with the Basic Block Detector where a 4 detector board can had for ~$30 and i've built pulse transformer detectors for far less

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
And they are solid state and are not in the propulsion circuit at all.

what do you mean by "propulsion circuit"?  the throttle?

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
EVERYTHING about my turnout control approach is way less expensive than that. $8 per turnout averaged out over the whole system - one relay and two pushbuttons on average.

i designed and built an interlock controller for 44 turnouts for ~$40

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
I have operated DCC layouts where one choice was to use the Digitrax throttle to throw switches - that was terrible. Why push 5 buttons I can hardly see when I can push one button on a control panel where I am already standing anyway?

you can use the same approach to set routes, so in 5 buttons you can align multiple turnouts, you can align all the mainline turnouts for mainline operations

but this approach also avoids building and wiring a panel and support CTC

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
I don't care about wiring complexity, wiring is easy.

I do care about the cost of expensive black box equipment and the learning curve of programing protocols I have not kept up with for many years.

I don't have any interest in learning or relearning any programing. That is not fun for me.

lot of "I"s in those statements.   

but just as you don't want to learn to program, others may not want to learn about wiring or designing and building relay circuits and are willing to spend $$ to a avoid that

you've frequently mention designing and building inexpensive control systems using relays which you are familiar with, 

     but from my perspective, a processor based approach is less expensive (maybe ~10/processor) that can support a handful of signals and other things and can easily be changed by reprogramming not correcting a wiring bug.

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
And, I don't want any help or want to be dependent on others down the road to maintain the layout.

i understand this and i think it's important

i've had to help the owner of that interlock reprogram some of the i/o ports and add additional routes.   so far i've been successful over the phone and he can simply reprogram the processor

i hope you understand how difficult this would be to explain to someone how to rewire a relay circuit under the layout

but i think many layout owners get help configuring JMRI

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
Again, there is nothing wrong with any of what you are suggesting, it is just not the only way.

of course it's not the only way.

but you seem to compare all other approaches to your relays approach and defend it whenever a different approach is suggested

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
And again, half the layout infrastructure products you are talking about did not exist five years ago, let alone 20 years ago when I developed my system.

i believe many of the DCC component being discussed have been around 20 years ago.   the club layout installed the PSX and DS64s 17 years ago

and while the easily programable USB processor boards weren't, the processors themselve were.   And the benefit of that approach is that the same code that runs in one node runs in them all if using CTC.   the logic is not in the layout, but in the PC controlling it and that tech has been around for much longer than 20 years

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
FACT remains, if you are going to have manual turnouts and no signaling, DCC wiring is pretty easy and provides good operational flexibility - no question.

that's the topic of the thread, that DCC layouts are easier to wire than cab controlled DC layouts

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
I was not trying to get into this big discussion again, but we seem to agree, other aspects of layout control are expensive and involved no matter what.

i don't think we do

there are several options for electrical hardware at each node (cluster of turnouts, signals, ...)

  • custom built/wired hardware
  • common but custom designed printed circuit boards with custom but common firmware
  • commercial processor boards (e.g. esp32) with custom but common firmware
  • commercial (e.g. DS64/74) products

i believe that instead of a custom electronics approach that may be expensive to buy components for today, to design, build and trouble shoot ... DCC provides a more uniform approach, a common set of components, that many layouts can use to support more advanced layout control and get help from others with.

and while i believe there is an exceedingly frustrating learning curve with JMRI, it can be used for CTC

2527

greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Sunday, September 25, 2022 8:24 PM

fwright
The difference is, as is often said, DCC controls the locomotive, DC controls the track.

I have always found that to be a hugely misleading comment.

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Posted by fwright on Sunday, September 25, 2022 7:04 PM

The difference is, as is often said, DCC controls the locomotive, DC controls the track.  Which means the basic infrastructure for blocks (layout control) is already established in DC.

DCC very much resembles what aviation calls "see and avoid".  There is no inherent infrastructure to avoid collisions - it's up to each engineer to avoid being on the same track at the same time as someone else.  The block infrastructure is available and can be added, but is not inherent to DCC.

For a one person layout it matters not.  DCC provides sound, DC doesn't.  Otherwise, both are equally simple and suitable for a one person layout.

When you add the 2nd (and more) trains running on the layout, complexity goes up exponentially no matter which system you use.

With DC, you need block wiring infrastructure, and depending on how automated you want to be, means to connect the correct block(s) to the correct locomotive(s).

With DCC, multiple trains operate on "see and avoid" which requires alert engineers.  The more track tightly shared between multiple trains, the more alert the engineers must be - and the more critical planning for short circuits must be.  Or you can install block control to assist or automate the "see and avoid" (I think you called this layout control).  The prototype uses a combination of rules, train orders, schedules (time tables), and a dispatcher to prevent collisions using a track block infrastructure.

Modular layouts that vary from setup to setup have to use DCC and alert engineers because the modifications to infrastructure from layout configuration changes are just too time consuming for 2 days of operation.  Even then, the planning and implementation required for short circuit handling on what is essentially a display layout drives DCC complexity very quickly.

Fred W

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, September 25, 2022 7:02 PM

gregc

 

 
ATLANTIC CENTRAL
Once you introduce larger layout size, detection, signaling, CTC or advanced turnout controls, suddenly wiring a layout using DCC as the locomotive control is not so simple

 

sounds like your saying DCC makes "layout control" harder

in general, locomotive control and layout control are separate systems and layout control requires a lot of infrastructure

but DCC makes block occupancy easier, if not more reliable and i just explained that some DCC circuit breakers and auto-reversers also support block detection which is a step towards more advanced layout control (e.g signaling)

the club uses stationary decoders (DS64s) for turnout control which minimizes turnout wiring and is also a step toward advanced layout control because all the DS64s are remotely accessible

in this club's case, DCC provides some of the infrastructure needed for advanced layout control

esp32/12 processor boards can make CMRI-like nodes for communicating block occupancy, turnout feedback and signal control supporting CTC -- the final infrastructure component -- wireless

 

 

 

 

Greg, no, I'm not saying that at all.

I'm saying there are lots of variables bassed on your choices. And that DCC does not automaticly make other aspects of layout control easier.

But, as a DC operator with 55 years of experiance on a number of advanced DC layouts, I don't know that I agree that locomotive control and other aspects of layout control are automaticly or always separate. That is very much a DCC concept.

I have 15 blocks that need detection? How would you do that with DCC? At what cost? Actually I have more than that, but I am leaving the staging yard systems out of the discussion.

My detection system is very reliable, and it detects the trains when they are sitting still or moving. And they are solid state and are not in the propulsion circuit at all.

I have seven interlockings ranging from simple to complex representing 60 or 70 turnouts - stationary decoders? EVERYTHING about my turnout control approach is way less expensive than that. $8 per turnout averaged out over the whole system - one relay and two pushbuttons on average.

I know stationary decoders have a lot of input methods and versitility, but just for the record, I have operated DCC layouts where one choice was to use the Digitrax throttle to throw switches - that was terrible. Why push 5 buttons I can hardly see when I can push one button on a control panel where I am already standing anyway?

You automaticly assume that a digital solid state solution is better, and sometimes it is. 

I don't care about wiring complexity, wiring is easy.

I do care about the cost of expensive black box equipment and the learning curve of programing protocols I have not kept up with for many years.

I don't have any interest in learning or relearning any programing. That is not fun for me.

And, I don't want any help or want to be dependent on others down the road to maintain the layout.

Again, there is nothing wrong with any of what you are suggesting, it is just not the only way.

And again, half the layout infrastructure products you are talking about did not exist five years ago, let alone 20 years ago when I developed my system. It's paid for, I have it, it works.

FACT remains, if you are going to have manual turnouts and no signaling, DCC wiring is pretty easy and provides good operational flexibility - no question.

As soon as the layout control aspects become more advanced, no matter the methods, signaling, detection, advanced turnout control all take money, time, gagets and wire - be it DC or DCC moving the trains.

I was not trying to get into this big discussion again, but we seem to agree, other aspects of layout control are expensive and involved no matter what.

It seems to me, that for many people, hooking up 15 wires blindly to some diagram and then programing something is preceived as "easier" than hooking up 15 wires that you have to actually understand what they do.

After 45 years of wiring stuff and designing electrical circuits, for me 15 wires is 15 wires. I will skip the programing part and let the wires be the programing.

Sheldon 

 

 

    

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Posted by gregc on Sunday, September 25, 2022 6:07 PM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
Once you introduce larger layout size, detection, signaling, CTC or advanced turnout controls, suddenly wiring a layout using DCC as the locomotive control is not so simple

sounds like your saying DCC makes "layout control" harder

in general, locomotive control and layout control are separate systems and layout control requires a lot of infrastructure

but DCC makes block occupancy easier, if not more reliable and i just explained that some DCC circuit breakers and auto-reversers also support block detection which is a step towards more advanced layout control (e.g signaling)

the club uses stationary decoders (DS64s) for turnout control which minimizes turnout wiring and is also a step toward advanced layout control because all the DS64s are remotely accessible

in this club's case, DCC provides some of the infrastructure needed for advanced layout control

esp32/12 processor boards can make CMRI-like nodes for communicating block occupancy, turnout feedback and signal control supporting CTC -- the final infrastructure component -- wireless

 

 

 

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Posted by jjdamnit on Sunday, September 25, 2022 3:51 PM

Hello All,

York1
Any over/under bets on how many pages this will go?

I should have taken that at even-money!!!

Hope this helps.

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, September 25, 2022 3:44 PM

Greg,

You have just made again the point I am always trying to make about this. Once you introduce larger layout size, detection, signaling, CTC or advanced turnout controls, suddenly wiring a layout using DCC as the locomotive control is not so simple, and often not much different from advanced DC layouts. 

My new layout will have 15 primary signal blocks, and 14 interlocking "sub blocks" on the double track mainline.

Dispatcher, tower operators, train operators, will be able to glance at multiple layout maps and know where every train is.

The big point of my control system in intergration. 

For those who understand CTC, here is the simple example. When the dispatcher sets a route, and then gives a given train authortiy on that route, the cab for that train is automaticly connected to the trackage where authority has been granted.

There is no redundant motion of operating cab selectors and CTC separately.

Without a dispatcher, train operators can become their own tower operators and preform dispatcher functions at each interlocking. Much the way many DCC operators throw manual or electric turnouts as they walk around the layout. And they give themselves track authority at each tower with the push of a single button.

Three trains in each direction will be able to make their way around the mainline at the same time.

But back to DCC. It is a fine system if it suits your needs and wants, but to suggest it is automaticly or always "easier to wire" is a myth. Depends on your goals. 

Sheldon 

    

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Posted by gregc on Sunday, September 25, 2022 2:47 PM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
I love how we gloss over the feeders every 6' like that is not wiring?

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
I know guys who converted medium sized DC layouts do DCC without adding feaders, they just used their existing DC block feeders every 20, 30, 50 feet depending on the nature of their layouts. Worked fine.

as you've confirmed, feeders aren't required for DCC

DCC doesn't require wiring each block thru some switching mechanism to each throttle

but this thead made me realize that DCC often needs overload protection (circuit breakers) to prevent shorts from killing the entire layout

so maybe DCC solves one set of problems (cab control wiring) but introduces another set of problems (overload protection)

the club layout i'm fortunate to work on, has two dual track mainlines: B&O and Western Maryland with several blocks in each direction, each protected with a circuit breaker.    (never seen this mentioned anywhere else).   

but each PSX circuit breaker also support block detection, making it easier to supprt signals

yea they're too bright (easily fixed with an adjustable regulator)

2302

greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, September 25, 2022 12:03 PM

gregc

 

 
ATLANTIC CENTRAL
Solder

 

is there any reason you couldn't do that with DCC?

 

Well, I don't know for sure. But I know guys who converted medium sized DC layouts do DCC without adding feaders, they just used their existing DC block feeders every 20, 30, 50 feet depending on the nature of their layouts. Worked fine.

And yes they were all old school like me with soldered rail joints.

I can't imagine not soldering rail joints?

Sheldon

    

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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, September 25, 2022 11:59 AM

I think that soldering every rail joint, especially with DCC, is a good practice. I get around this but only because I drop a pair of feeders from the outside of the rails on every section of track. I got tired of stalls on my last layout due to loss of connectivity.

Rich

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, September 25, 2022 11:57 AM

wrench567

   Sheldon.

  Why can't you have turnout motors and signaling systems on DCC? As a matter of fact there is a vast assortment of products. Some with wireless control. Automatic reversing units have made return loops and wyes seamless and simple. Some signaling systems are even plug and play. Optical detection can be troublesome but there are things that can be done. I'm not a big proponent of resistor wheel sets but there are other systems.

  As far as soldering every rail. I've done it to my portable modules with just a pair of feeders. But my track lengths are short. The module joiner tracks rely on good joiners but they are short enough that most locomotives span both sides and the power buss is connected with automotive grade connectors.

  Don't want to argue about it. Just trying to dispell some myths.

     Pete.

 

Are you asking me about my personal choice?

I could, but I don't need or want the expense of 145 decoders, 10 wireless throttles, boosters and circuit breakers for a 1500 sq ft layout with 120 turnouts and 1,000 ft of track.

I know a fair amount about DCC and all the options for turnout control, siginaling, etc.

I have used DCC for many hours on other layouts.

Even if I had the money that I have invested in my 10 Aristo Throttles and the relays and wiring for my system, it would not pay for a DCC equivalent, not by a long shot.

Pete, I don't want to clutter up this thread with the details of my control system, but it is not like any DC system you have ever seen.

Short feature list:

  • Signals, detection and CTC
  • Tower control
  • Wireless walk around throttles
  • ATC - Autoimatic train control - run a red signal on the main, your train stops.
  • Constant brightness lighting in most situations, even stopped locos when desired.
  • NO toggle flipping, simple progressive push button control - OR - full dispatcher control so the operator experiance is just like DCC.

Actually, if I ever wanted to, I could overlay DCC right into my existing system wiring - but I would loose the ATC feature....

As for myths, no myths here. What I do is complex and requires lot s wire and lots of planning.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by wrench567 on Sunday, September 25, 2022 11:37 AM

   Sheldon.

  Why can't you have turnout motors and signaling systems on DCC? As a matter of fact there is a vast assortment of products. Some with wireless control. Automatic reversing units have made return loops and wyes seamless and simple. Some signaling systems are even plug and play. Optical detection can be troublesome but there are things that can be done. I'm not a big proponent of resistor wheel sets but there are other systems.

  As far as soldering every rail. I've done it to my portable modules with just a pair of feeders. But my track lengths are short. The module joiner tracks rely on good joiners but they are short enough that most locomotives span both sides and the power buss is connected with automotive grade connectors.

  Don't want to argue about it. Just trying to dispell some myths.

     Pete.

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Posted by gregc on Sunday, September 25, 2022 10:33 AM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
Solder

is there any reason you couldn't do that with DCC?

greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, September 25, 2022 10:15 AM

gregc

 

 
ATLANTIC CENTRAL
Typical control block 30' to 60' feet with only one feeder run thru an inductive detector for signaling.

 

how do you deal with less than reliable rail joiners?

 

Solder - I have been soldering all my rail joints within each control block since before I was in this hobby. Meaning, my father was a "holiday" modeler, setting up a very elaborate 90 sq ft HO layout every year for the Christmas season.

It was built with Tru-Scale ready track. He soldered and unsoldered every rail joint every year.

At age 10, we had finally had a house with a basement where we intended to stay a while. He built the layout in the basement, and in two years it was mine. 

I changed it, expanded it, years later built several new layouts at home, became a member of the Severna Park Model Railroad Club where I learned more track skills than what my father had taught me with the Tru-Scale products and hand laid the track on the next few layouts.

So, for 50 plus years, no electrical issues with rail joints.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Sunday, September 25, 2022 10:02 AM

When I was building the N scale Dream House layout, construction began in 1990, if I have my dates right.

I bought a massive (ridiculous) fleet of Kato N scale locomotives. If you remember the shortage of Kato undecorated models from those days... I caused it.

Everything was DC. I do not remember the timing of DCC becoming available, but I think it was either very new, or just over the horizon at that time.

As I built the layout, I knew there had to be a better way. The wiring was getting unbearable and way too complicated. 

For a large multi-operator layout, I would never suggest DC to a novice. The advantages of DCC just far out-weigh any downsides.

For a layout that is small, DCC really adds a lot of fun, you know, pretending to be an engineer and just "playing trains" for a while.

-Kevin

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Posted by gregc on Sunday, September 25, 2022 10:00 AM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
Typical control block 30' to 60' feet with only one feeder run thru an inductive detector for signaling.

how do you deal with less than reliable rail joiners?

greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, September 25, 2022 9:38 AM

betamax

Not only is the wiring simplified, the amount of it is greatly reduced.

You don't need to run wire between the throttle, switches and blocks if you want something beyond a simple layout.

Just two wires, with a lot of feeders. 

 

I love how we gloss over the feeders every 6' like that is not wiring? Somehow it is not "wiring" because it is rock simple?

I don't have feeders every 6' on my DC layout? Typical control block 30' to 60' feet with only one feeder run thru an inductive detector for signaling.

And power district and circuit breaker wiring can get pretty involved as DCC layout get larger.

I'm not being anti DCC here, let's just tell the truth.

DCC wiring can be very simple, or complex, depending on layout size and operational goals.

The exact same thing can be said about DC. 

Dr Wayne powers his DC layout with two wires - mine will have thousands for my adavanced cab control that includes signaling, one button route control of turnouts, local tower control panels, walk around radio throtttles (yes in DC), CTC and more.

Things that keep DCC wiring simple:

  • Manual turnouts
  • No signaling
  • Medium sized layout with minimal separate power districts.
  • Minimum number of wireless throttles, or minimum number of lineside jacks for wired throttles.

Signaling, advanced turnout control, very large layout, throttles for lots of operators will all increase DCC wring requirements.

Operational Philosophy


This is the real question.

DCC lets you be more like the engineer and less like the dispatcher. That's why it was originally invented.

And long before sound there were lots on Command Control systems that are not DCC, all of which worked, but they were proprietary, your controllers and receivers (decoders) all came from one company - if they went out of business, you were sunk.

If I was to switch to DCC, the driving feature would be the type of controller.

I don't want 50 buttons, I don't want a smart phone, and now that I have been using Aristo Train Engineer throttles for over a decade, I don't even want a knob. 

I like push buttons - FASTER - SLOWER - EAST (forward) - WEST (reverse) - EMERGENCY STOP

Back to the idea of being the engineer.

DCC lets you:

  • Turn lights on/off
  • Blow horns/whistles
  • Control other sounds
  • Operate your loco, or group of locos without regard for other factors - you are free to make mistakes like real life engineers...

 I actually encourage most new people to go DCC despite being a deticated DC operator myself.

My reasons for staying with DC relate to my very specific tastes, goals, talents, and interests in the hobby.

I want signaling and CTC, I am building a large layout with a large loco fleet, I have extensive electrical and electronics konwledge.

I don't want sound, the remaining features DCC would add to my Advance Cab Control are not justified by my operating style considering the extra costs.

I would recommend that the OP select a DCC system based mainly on the ergonomics of the human interface (throttle).

Sheldon 

    

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Posted by rrebell on Sunday, September 25, 2022 9:27 AM

As someone who more recently switched, I had a few reasons. For one I like sound but I also like the juciers for turnouts, a real game changer for someone who likes small engines. Also most new stuff out there is DCC for motive power.

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Posted by betamax on Sunday, September 25, 2022 8:02 AM

Not only is the wiring simplified, the amount of it is greatly reduced.

You don't need to run wire between the throttle, switches and blocks if you want something beyond a simple layout.

Just two wires, with a lot of feeders. 

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Posted by gregc on Sunday, September 25, 2022 5:31 AM

richhotrain
 
York1

I've read quite a few comments in various threads that the main reason for having DCC is sound, and if you're not interested in sound, then go with DC.

Maybe, but I would think that the main reason for having DCC is independent locomotive control, not sound.

i believe it's simpler wiring

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Posted by wrench567 on Saturday, September 24, 2022 11:00 PM

   Sound came out a lot later than DCC. There were early sound units. Crude, horrible and little to no customization. The early Soundtraxx (I had one) decoder was HUGE! And it was only sound. It also operated on DC. Actually it sounded better on DC. On DCC it hummed and sometimes when powering up had a high pitch squeel. It was also very pricey. A few years later, this little German company started selling motor, light, and sound decoders. They required a 100 ohm speaker. Priced comparable to a very good motor/lighting decoder. With a special separate programming unit and computer you can customize and even change sound sets. The decoder even had BEMF at a time when even TCS was using Dither. The worst thing about it was the volume of the horn/whistle and the speaker.

  Sound is optional. Just about all my steam has sound. It was just recently I started putting sound in my diesel fleet. I still have nine locomotives with just motor/lighting decoders.

    Pete.

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Posted by jjdamnit on Saturday, September 24, 2022 9:01 PM

Hello All,

York1
Any over/under bets on how many pages this will go?

Well, you've expanded the discussion to the second page...Wink

As far as sound goes- -there are several DC systems that can enable sound-equipped DCC locomotives.

I don't run sound, but I do run several consists.

DCC, DCC, DCC, that's for me!!! (I apologize to Gene Wilder and Mel Brooks.)

Hope this helps.

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Posted by York1 on Saturday, September 24, 2022 8:52 PM

richhotrain

 

 
York1

I've read quite a few comments in various threads that the main reason for having DCC is sound, and if you're not interested in sound, then go with DC.

 

 

Maybe, but I would think that the main reason for having DCC is independent locomotive control, not sound.

 

Rich

 

I agree.  My point was how often I've read comments that claim the main reason for DCC is sound.

York1 John       

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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, September 24, 2022 8:33 PM

York1

I've read quite a few comments in various threads that the main reason for having DCC is sound, and if you're not interested in sound, then go with DC.

Maybe, but I would think that the main reason for having DCC is independent locomotive control, not sound.

Rich

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Posted by jjdamnit on Saturday, September 24, 2022 8:30 PM

Hello All,

MJ4562
Does DCC allow for better MU (i.e. more than one diesel operating as a team) operation?

A resounding- -YES!

When I first got back into this great hobby I had only known DC control from my previous experiences in the early 1970s.

My presumption was that DC would be cheaper than the more technical, and "expensive" DCC.

Having been a theatrical lighting technician (electrician) I had firsthand experience of the evolution from analog to digital lighting control systems.

I knew the simplicity of digital- -yes you read that correctly- -and the complexity of analog control systems with its banks of switches, relays, and literally, tons of copper wire.

wrench567
When my former club switched from DC to a three booster DCC system. We stripped out more than 43 pounds of copper wire...

At the current price of copper ($3.34/lb. as of 9/23/2022) its $143.62- -that's just the salvage price!

Now factor in the other components and you are probably looking at around $200.00, at current prices, for a "moderate" DC system.

MJ4562
I prefer to operate alone and sound doesn't interest me. But multiple diesels does interest me, so that might be the only reason for me to consider if it is a factor.

As has been posted, this is where DCC really shines!

fwright
But really there is no reason for DCC on a small single operator layout. I only operate one locomotive at a time. The only real selling point for DCC for me is adding sound to the locomotives and layout.

A sentiment I respectfully disagree with, especially if you want to run several locomotives or utilize Advance Consisting.

maxman
My downfall is that I happen to like locos, far in excess to what I need. What to do with them if I don't want to take them off the tracks? With DCC I can park them wherever I want. No need to have toggle switches, relays, and so forth.

In my opinion, another for the "plus" column of DCC.

After converting my DC pike- -which I also ran turnout control via DC- -to DCC with wireless capabilities, I discovered that I didn't need a control panel. 

fwright
I have an NCE Power Cab because my HOn3 modular club chose NCE over 10 years ago.

As a "Lone Wolf" modeler this was not a factor in which DCC system I chose.

richhotrain
The OP's best bet is to decide on a DCC system such as Digitrax or NCE and read the manual that comes with the system. The Getting Started section of the manual will get you going pretty quickly.

The first DCC system I chose was a "Dead End" system with few features, limited expansion possibilities, and poor ergonimics.

For pure "fit and feel" I chose NCE over equally capable- -if not more feature-packed systems.

At some point, it just comes down to what you like, barring other decision-making forces; as noted above.

MJ4562
Otherwise I thing (SIC) y'all talked me out of DCC.

That's a choice you will ultimately have to make on your own.

As someone who's presumption that DC was MY answer and later converted to DCC I can only offer up my thoughts.

Hope this helps.

"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"

  • Member since
    February 2018
  • From: Flyover Country
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Posted by York1 on Saturday, September 24, 2022 8:06 PM

Maxman and Pete,  ditto for me.

I've read quite a few comments in various threads that the main reason for having DCC is sound, and if you're not interested in sound, then go with DC.

I'm not interested in sound, although I have one locomotive with it.  I don't use the sound much.

I like my DCC system for the same reasons listed above, not because of sound.

York1 John       

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    May 2020
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Posted by wrench567 on Saturday, September 24, 2022 5:55 PM

MJ4562

Does DCC allow for better MU (i.e. more than one diesel operating as a team) operation?  

I prefer to operate alone and sound doesn't interest me.  But multiple diesels does interest me, so that might be the only reason for me to consider if it is a factor.  Otherwise I thing y'all talked me out of DCC.

 

 

   Yes it can. I can mirror what Maxman had said. Without DCC I could never run my five 2-10-0 steam locomotives. They are from five different manufacturers and have five different motors and gearboxes.

  The downside of DCC is complexity and costs. Some people just can't get programming down right away. But eventually it becomes second nature. Standardization of the basic CVs is fantastic. But after that each maker does their own thing making lighting and sound programming confusing. Computer programs are a godsend sometimes.

   While costs can be a downfall. That is debatable. I have seen and operated on some very sofisticated DC cab control layouts. They had miles of wiring and switches, power supplies, cabs, knobs and complex wiring. The cost of all that would rival the cost of a great 5 amp system with simple buss wiring. When my former club switched from DC to a three booster DCC system. We stripped out more than 43 pounds of copper wire, sixty rotary switches, hundreds of toggle switches and 4 varyarc transformers. And that was just in a three level 6x30 layout.

   Sound is optional. So I will not comment on it.

    Hope this helps.

        Pete.

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    February 2008
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Posted by maxman on Saturday, September 24, 2022 4:47 PM

MJ4562

Does DCC allow for better MU (i.e. more than one diesel operating as a team) operation?  

I prefer to operate alone and sound doesn't interest me.  But multiple diesels does interest me, so that might be the only reason for me to consider if it is a factor.  Otherwise I thing y'all talked me out of DCC.

You will get differing opinions on this,

In my opinion, if you have similar locos with similar motors, gearing, and speed ranges, you probably don't need DCC.

On the other hand, if you have one loco with a top speed of 80 smph and another with a top speed of 100 smph, with DCC you can adjust the speeds to more closely match each other.

In addition, if you want the top speed of all your locos to be limited to a specific value, say 60 smph, you can do that with DCC.

Now some will say that when multiple locos are consisted (DC) and pulling a train the load will balance out.  Maybe.  On the other hand I have seen (DCC) three unit sets of six axle units pulling a 32-35 car train with the wheels on one of the engines happily spinning (grinding?) away because it was not speed matched with the others.  Obviously I just imagined that.

One thing that the anti-DCC users are not willing to climb out of their high cupolas to recognize is that DCC may be a blessing to some of us, even if we don't want sound.  For example, my "railroad" will never be more than a glorified loop with some industries to switch.  I also have some staging tracks.

My downfall is that I happen to like locos, far in excess to what I need.  What to do with them if I don't want to take them off the tracks?  With DCC I can park them wherever I want.  No need to have toggle switches, relays, and so forth.

As a matter of fact, if I were willing to dispense with power operated turnout motors, then I would have no need any control panels.

But it's just different strokes for different folks.

  • Member since
    October 2005
  • From: Central Texas
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Posted by MJ4562 on Saturday, September 24, 2022 3:15 PM

Does DCC allow for better MU (i.e. more than one diesel operating as a team) operation?  

I prefer to operate alone and sound doesn't interest me.  But multiple diesels does interest me, so that might be the only reason for me to consider if it is a factor.  Otherwise I thing y'all talked me out of DCC.

 

  • Member since
    November 2002
  • From: Colorado
  • 4,075 posts
Posted by fwright on Sunday, September 18, 2022 11:52 AM

I have an NCE Power Cab because my HOn3 modular club chose NCE over 10 years ago.

With Blackstone being out of my price range when they finally came out with the C-19, none of my HOn3 locos have decoders.  All have needed/need tinkering to make them run well enough on DC to consider installing decoders.

Same is true for the 1900-era steam fleet made up of NOS and used Mantua/Roundhouse and similar kits.

But really there is no reason for DCC on a small single operator layout.  I only operate one locomotive at a time.  The only real selling point for DCC for me is adding sound to the locomotives and layout.

Fred W

....modeling foggy coastal Oregon, where it's always 1900....

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