I'm looking for advice on where to learn about DCC and how to get started. I'm fairly tech savvy but confused by the different control systems and decoders out there and how they relate to each other. I'm coming from the DC world but not being invested in anything yet it seems to make sense to go with DCC as that seems to be the future.
One specific question I have is are loco decoders specific to a control system or are they generic? Can I confidently purchase a decoder equipped loco and worry about my specific control system later or should I wait and buy everything at once?
A good overview would be nice. I know Kalmbach has a DCC book but I'm skeptical about books like that since they are usually obsolete by the time they're printed.
Thank you in advance for you help.
MJ4562it seems to make sense to go with DCC as that seems to be the future.
-Matt
Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.
Any over/under bets on how many pages this will go?
York1 John
MJ4562One specific question I have is are loco decoders specific to a control system or are they generic? Can I confidently purchase a decoder equipped loco and worry about my specific control system later or should I wait and buy everything at once?
I was retired and old when I started with DCC. It's easy, simple to wire, and does not cost that much more.
To answer your main question:
Today's DCC systems and decoders in new locomotives will run without issues, regardless of manufacturer.
I have an NCE system, I have locomotives from four different makers, and I have not had any issues with any of it.
Since I'm not an expert, there are others on here who will help you troubleshoot any issues you run across.
I say, go for it and have fun!
MJ4562I'm fairly tech savvy but confused by the different control systems and decoders out there and how they relate to each other.
DCC systems have several components
some systems, NCE PowerCab, combine the controller, command station and booster into one unit
DCC is a standard for communication over the rails between the booster and decoders. since DCC is standard, any decoder should work with any DCC system
there may be multiple boosters providing power to the layout. each booster receives the DCC signal from the (single) command station. multiple controllers communicate with the command station. the command station translates button presses or commands from controllers into DCC commands to particular decoders.
DCC speed commands are repeated periodically so that if a loco loses power (e.g. dirty track) it will resume speed once power is restored
controllers communicate with commands stations using proprietary (i.e. non-standard) protocols. Digitrax uses LocoNet and NCE use cabbus. therefore, command station and controllers must be compatible with one another.
JMRI engine driver software for smartphones allows smartphones to control locomotives by communicating with a JMRI application running on a PC or other device (Raspberry PI) which has an interface board to the command bus.
multiple boosters may be used to provide sufficient power on larger layouts. booster outputs must be wired compatible to the rails so that the rails have the same polarity (A or B) across gaps at the boundaries between boosters.
a booster will usually shut-down if there is a short or the current drawn exceeds its limit. the power district supplied by a booster may be further divided using DCC circuit breakers to isolate a short (shutting down power) to just the tracks in the power district protected by that circuit breaker, as well as limiting the size of the short (e.g 2A vs 10A from the booster)
auto-reversers can detect a short when metal wheels bridge the gaps at either end of a reversing section and swap the polarity of the DCC power to the rails of the reversing section allowing the loco to continue operation without manual control.
DCC power is always available on the track support constant lighting
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Hello All,
The National Model Railroad Association (NMRA) maintains the standards and recommended practices for model railroading, including DCC.
Interoperability is key to the success of DCC.
Basically, this means that manufacturers following the NMRA DCC standards produce controllers, decoders, and other components that will work together.
On the NMRA website, there is a Getting Started section.
This is available to non-members as well as more technical documents under the Standards pull-down menu.
My first DCC system was the Bachmann Dynamis. This worked with Digitrax, Train Control Systems (TCS), and Bachmann decoders.
I switched to NCE, for expansion purposes. All the locomotives and mobile decoder equipped rolling stock are compatible.
MJ4562A good overview would be nice. I know Kalmbach has a DCC book but I'm skeptical about books like that since they are usually obsolete by the time they're printed.
Books are only as obsolete as the technology they cover.
I added to my library The Digitrax Big Book Of DCC. Even though it was published in 1999 the information is still valid- -because the "backbone" of DCC has stayed pretty much the same.
Another resource is Allen Gartners Wiring for DCC web page.
Because of Interoperability, with a few exceptions, the information you get from one manufacturer will apply to all DCC components.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
I am not a particuary tech savvy person. I had a small (4x6) DC layout, blocked so if I had two operators they could run two trains, albeit carefully. I saw a DCC layout with sound and loved it.
Had been planning for a larger layout later so had been buying all aspect of a layout for a number of years. started collecting DCC with and without sound. Lost my large (13x22) space and am now downsizing to a 7x14 and am selling off my collection of scenery, buildings, rolling stock and DC locos as well as a few DCC ones. I found that on a small layout DCC without sound weren t worth the extra cost. On a large layout where you run several multi unit trains, there is a savings, if you only want sound in the lead unit.
I asked around for which was the "best" starter system and got multiple posotive siuggetions. What I felt was the best advice was find out what other modelers in your area have clubs, round robin groups and individuals just willing to give you a hand. This way you can get help for problems and if you choose to join a club or small group, even just one other person, you can take your controller along to run your train on their layout.
As far as I know, all DCC decoders work with all DCC systems. NMRA set standards early on, as I understand it.
I purchased an NCE Power Cab and only used the manual that came with the set-up to get it up and going quickly, about 15 minutes, once I had a place to moiunt it.
Did leave it so I coud switch back to my DC locos if I wanted, but be careul not to have a DC loco on a track that is DCC powered. I hear it can ruin them.
Hope this helps a little.
Good luck,
Richard
Hi there. A few points I would like to add:
- DCC is great. I know very few folks who have returned to DC after trying out DCC.
- Some systems are more sophisticated than others. For example, the Bachmann Dynamis system and MRC tech 6, while simple, have limitations with respect to programming. In fact, MRC tech 6 is only "compatible" with DCC.
-You don't need a computer (or JMRI) to operate from a cell. Digitrax (and others I believe) sell components that provide a Wifi interface that allows you to run multiple trains from your cell. It is a great value-add in my opinion.
-While DCC standards are extensive, programming commands for decoders are not standardized. Configuration variables (CVs) differ from one make to another. Some folks like to stick to one decoder manufacturer for that reason. I don't, but I keep the instructions and write down the CVs for each loco on the instructions sheet of the decoder in the loco.
-Buying old locos that are not DCC ready (i.e., with a plug inside them to receive a decoder) and installing decoders into them is usually not economical. But it's a good learning experience.
Simon
York1 Any over/under bets on how many pages this will go?
I look at this topic in very simplistic terms. If you want independent control over locomotives and you want sound, that is essentially what DCC provides.
Wiring in either DC or DCC is quite simple if you restrict your layout to an oval. It gets complicated in DC when you install blocks, and it gets complicated in DCC when you install reversing sections, occupancy detection, and prototypical signal systems.
Where DCC can really get complicated is in the use of Configuration Variables (CVs). Decoders have the ability to control not only locomotive addresses, lights and sound, forward and reverse movement, and consisting, but also to fine tune such functions as lights and sound with a myriad number of sophisticated adjustments. It is probably best when starting out in DCC to limit the use of CVs to basic light and sound functions. The learning curve can come later.
The OP's best bet is to decide on a DCC system such as Digitrax or NCE and read the manual that comes with the system. The Getting Started section of the manual will get you going pretty quickly.
Rich
Alton Junction
Unlike some, I find DCC the best control system for smaller layouts. As is still often said, "With DC, you run the track. With DCC, you run the trains."
That is the advantage in a nutshell. DC layouts really do require a lot of wiring and block control, while in DCC there is a closer relationship between the throttle and the actual train. You don't need to isolate one engine to run another. Without regards to blocks and isolation, you can run two trains separately on the same track.
One thing to note is that while any engine can run on any DCC system, that is not true of other components. Your Digitrax throttle will not work with an NCE system, not will your Lenz throttle work with most others. That's why you should be comfortable with your throttle, because it's your interface to the system.
Be glad that you don't have to research MTH systems. They never became fully compatible with DCC. Even though they made some products that some modelers liked, they didn't even try to adhere to the DCC standards.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
The best advice I can give you. Start with a DCC system that is easily upgraded and expanded as you advance along in the hobby. While you only need one command station, you may later need a half dozen throttles and a couple boosters. Something like a Power Cab from NCE have a couple of directions for upgrade and expansion. Once you outgrow the basic Power Cab you can either go with a smart booster or go full Power Pro system. You still have the original Power Cab as an extra throttle or the workbench for programming and configuring decoders. Lenz and Digitrax also have good systems.
Decoders come in several different flavors. Motor and lighting, lighting only, sound motor and lighting, and stationary. Any DECODER will work on any DCC system regardless of manufacture. Someone new to DCC would probably be better starting with locomotives with decoders already installed.
Pete.
lots of good amateur videos on you tube. i particularly like a Brit who has a whole series on his Chadwick rr he is building. Pobably 4 or 5 videos on setting up and wiring dcc panels and systems
Actually this info is very helpful. I'm needing to learn vocabulary and basic concepts.
The clerk at my hobby shop claimed that N scale actually runs smoother and lower speed better with DCC. Any truth to that? I'm on the fence about scale but no one mentioned that.
Sound isn't important to me right now but the idea of not having to mess with a spaghetti bowl of wiring is very appealing. Wiring has always been the dealbreaker for me.
I've read that there are different numbers of PINS in various decoders. I guess that is older technology but probably still works just not so many options?
MJ4562 Actually this info is very helpful. I'm needing to learn vocabulary and basic concepts. The clerk at my hobby shop claimed that N scale actually runs smoother and lower speed better with DCC. Any truth to that? ...
The clerk at my hobby shop claimed that N scale actually runs smoother and lower speed better with DCC. Any truth to that? ...
None whatsoever. He must have a hockey sock full of N stuff he can't move.
MJ4562 Sound isn't important to me right now but the idea of not having to mess with a spaghetti bowl of wiring is very appealing. Wiring has always been the dealbreaker for me.
Once you have heard sound, you're as likely to want/like it as not. Some simply can't get used to it, especially if they have recent DC experience. Or, they can't be bothered to get into the manuals and figure out how to reduce the Master Volume...which pretty much all of us do, starting at 50%. Some things don't scale at all, sound being one of them. The others are water and smoke. Sound has to be so low that you only hear the closest two or three locomotives. If you can hear a steamer chuffing away 15 feet from you over your active switcher two feet away, something is wrong. Decoders come set at full volume, and honestly, it's just a racket.
MJ4562 I've read that there are different numbers of PINS in various decoders. I guess that is older technology but probably still works just not so many options?
The numbers of pins keeps rising for a reason I, a non-installer, not-so-tech savvy guy don't understand. Someone who knows will respond, but it only requires that you do one of two things if you have a favourite decoder: match or replace the decoder's tether, if it has a tether, or hardwire/solder it all together.
MJ4562The clerk at my hobby shop claimed that N scale actually runs smoother and lower speed better with DCC. Any truth to that? I'm on the fence about scale but no one mentioned that.
I have N scale, but I did it strictly for the amount of track I could get to fit in my layout room.
I have DCC Kato locomotives that run very well at the slowest speeds. But I doubt N runs any better than HO.
One more thing that someone else mentioned -- I bought only DCC locomotives. I was not ready to get into installing decoders into N scale locomotives.
Most in the forum will say "Digitrax" or "NCE", but I suggest that you investigate the Roco z21 system and also the Digikeijs DR5000 "universal" controller.
Either of the above can be set up to work via wifi using the free z21 app which will run on any smartphone or tablet (iOS or Android). They also work with handheld/wired devices, if that's your preference.
You can even download the z21 app and run it "in demo mode" to get an idea of how it works (can't actually run trains without the hardware box)...
I'll second OldEngine's comments. Don't restrict your evaluation to just Digitrax and NCE. They are fine systems and could serve you well. However, walkaround control is a must and wifi is the best approach for walkaround control. A DR5000 system has built-in wifi and walk-around control can be achieved by using the z21 app (free) on your cell phone. Start-up costs will be much lower with DR5000 + z21 app than with the big two DCC systems. Good luck whichever way you go!
Even though I lost the bet, I want to compliment everyone on their posts.
I was pretty sure that by now, this would have devolved into another six-page argument over whether DC or DCC was better.
Thanks to everyone for giving good input to the OP's question!
I'd like to suggest this site that can answer some questions for you:
https://dccwiki.com/
I recall being in the "should I or shouldn't I?" stage of "converting" my fairly large HO layout back in 2005. I had tallied the costs of a DCC system and decoders (back then they were 95% non-sound) and came up with something in the neighborhood of $2500.
No deal. Then a friend approached me and said he was leaving the hobby and would I like to buy his Digitrax DCC system and his stash of maybe two-dozen decoders, literally for pennies on the dollar.
That clinched it for me and I've been happy with my choice ever since. That original DCS200 command station is still in use (on the test track) and is still compatible with all the other present-day Digitrax devices.
I already had a few Broadway Limited locos that were DCC/sound equipped but I had been running them in DC compatible mode. Over the years I've installed decoders on nearly my entire roster, some even twice or three times as I upgraded to sound, or even "better" sound decoders and speakers. I'm also a fan of the various lighting effects that I can replicate using LEDs and most decoders.
So I really didn't give much thought into which brand to go with. Three local layouts/clubs were using Digitrax at the time and this is what the friend was offering so that's how I wound up in the Digitrax camp.
Today, of course, there are many more choices.
Good Luck, Ed
I don't think a book is a bad idea, because it will get you used to the vocabulary and concepts. Books seem to assume everyone has a megalayout and push multiple booster, where a small layout doesn't need that.
DCC in not intuitive and you have to read the manual. For instance, as a newbie you might think one CV controls one function. Not necessarily so, CV29 controls 5 (or is it 6) CV's 257 to 511 are Page Indexed, meaning CV's 31 and 32 need to be set to specific values, before changing these CV's
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I bought and read "Basic DCC wiring for your Model Railroad" (Kalmbach). It focusses on wiring the layout, not really about installing decoders. The "DCC guide" (also by Kalmbach) is in the same price range and is probably more comprehensive - I probably should have bought that one.
EDIT: My mistake, there are a few pages on decoder installs in the book about Basic DCC wiring. My apologies to the author.
Thank you for the continuing replies, much appreciated. I'm still reading and researching.
I've been in the hobby since 1954 as a teenager. I bought my first DCC system in 2016 the NCE Power Cab. It is the easiest to use for beginners. Decoders are universal and work with any NMRA standard system. However the technology is chnaging rapidly. Soundtraxx just announced a new decoder that will work with Blue tooth and your an app for your phone. Best way to learn is on the internet YOUTUBE channel or find a local hobbyost with DCC who may want to help you.
I have an NCE Power Cab because my HOn3 modular club chose NCE over 10 years ago.
With Blackstone being out of my price range when they finally came out with the C-19, none of my HOn3 locos have decoders. All have needed/need tinkering to make them run well enough on DC to consider installing decoders.
Same is true for the 1900-era steam fleet made up of NOS and used Mantua/Roundhouse and similar kits.
But really there is no reason for DCC on a small single operator layout. I only operate one locomotive at a time. The only real selling point for DCC for me is adding sound to the locomotives and layout.
Fred W
....modeling foggy coastal Oregon, where it's always 1900....
Does DCC allow for better MU (i.e. more than one diesel operating as a team) operation?
I prefer to operate alone and sound doesn't interest me. But multiple diesels does interest me, so that might be the only reason for me to consider if it is a factor. Otherwise I thing y'all talked me out of DCC.
MJ4562 Does DCC allow for better MU (i.e. more than one diesel operating as a team) operation? I prefer to operate alone and sound doesn't interest me. But multiple diesels does interest me, so that might be the only reason for me to consider if it is a factor. Otherwise I thing y'all talked me out of DCC.
You will get differing opinions on this,
In my opinion, if you have similar locos with similar motors, gearing, and speed ranges, you probably don't need DCC.
On the other hand, if you have one loco with a top speed of 80 smph and another with a top speed of 100 smph, with DCC you can adjust the speeds to more closely match each other.
In addition, if you want the top speed of all your locos to be limited to a specific value, say 60 smph, you can do that with DCC.
Now some will say that when multiple locos are consisted (DC) and pulling a train the load will balance out. Maybe. On the other hand I have seen (DCC) three unit sets of six axle units pulling a 32-35 car train with the wheels on one of the engines happily spinning (grinding?) away because it was not speed matched with the others. Obviously I just imagined that.
One thing that the anti-DCC users are not willing to climb out of their high cupolas to recognize is that DCC may be a blessing to some of us, even if we don't want sound. For example, my "railroad" will never be more than a glorified loop with some industries to switch. I also have some staging tracks.
My downfall is that I happen to like locos, far in excess to what I need. What to do with them if I don't want to take them off the tracks? With DCC I can park them wherever I want. No need to have toggle switches, relays, and so forth.
As a matter of fact, if I were willing to dispense with power operated turnout motors, then I would have no need any control panels.
But it's just different strokes for different folks.
Yes it can. I can mirror what Maxman had said. Without DCC I could never run my five 2-10-0 steam locomotives. They are from five different manufacturers and have five different motors and gearboxes.
The downside of DCC is complexity and costs. Some people just can't get programming down right away. But eventually it becomes second nature. Standardization of the basic CVs is fantastic. But after that each maker does their own thing making lighting and sound programming confusing. Computer programs are a godsend sometimes.
While costs can be a downfall. That is debatable. I have seen and operated on some very sofisticated DC cab control layouts. They had miles of wiring and switches, power supplies, cabs, knobs and complex wiring. The cost of all that would rival the cost of a great 5 amp system with simple buss wiring. When my former club switched from DC to a three booster DCC system. We stripped out more than 43 pounds of copper wire, sixty rotary switches, hundreds of toggle switches and 4 varyarc transformers. And that was just in a three level 6x30 layout.
Sound is optional. So I will not comment on it.
Maxman and Pete, ditto for me.
I've read quite a few comments in various threads that the main reason for having DCC is sound, and if you're not interested in sound, then go with DC.
I'm not interested in sound, although I have one locomotive with it. I don't use the sound much.
I like my DCC system for the same reasons listed above, not because of sound.
MJ4562Does DCC allow for better MU (i.e. more than one diesel operating as a team) operation?
A resounding- -YES!
When I first got back into this great hobby I had only known DC control from my previous experiences in the early 1970s.
My presumption was that DC would be cheaper than the more technical, and "expensive" DCC.
Having been a theatrical lighting technician (electrician) I had firsthand experience of the evolution from analog to digital lighting control systems.
I knew the simplicity of digital- -yes you read that correctly- -and the complexity of analog control systems with its banks of switches, relays, and literally, tons of copper wire.
wrench567When my former club switched from DC to a three booster DCC system. We stripped out more than 43 pounds of copper wire...
At the current price of copper ($3.34/lb. as of 9/23/2022) its $143.62- -that's just the salvage price!
Now factor in the other components and you are probably looking at around $200.00, at current prices, for a "moderate" DC system.
MJ4562I prefer to operate alone and sound doesn't interest me. But multiple diesels does interest me, so that might be the only reason for me to consider if it is a factor.
As has been posted, this is where DCC really shines!
fwrightBut really there is no reason for DCC on a small single operator layout. I only operate one locomotive at a time. The only real selling point for DCC for me is adding sound to the locomotives and layout.
A sentiment I respectfully disagree with, especially if you want to run several locomotives or utilize Advance Consisting.
maxmanMy downfall is that I happen to like locos, far in excess to what I need. What to do with them if I don't want to take them off the tracks? With DCC I can park them wherever I want. No need to have toggle switches, relays, and so forth.
In my opinion, another for the "plus" column of DCC.
After converting my DC pike- -which I also ran turnout control via DC- -to DCC with wireless capabilities, I discovered that I didn't need a control panel.
fwrightI have an NCE Power Cab because my HOn3 modular club chose NCE over 10 years ago.
As a "Lone Wolf" modeler this was not a factor in which DCC system I chose.
richhotrainThe OP's best bet is to decide on a DCC system such as Digitrax or NCE and read the manual that comes with the system. The Getting Started section of the manual will get you going pretty quickly.
The first DCC system I chose was a "Dead End" system with few features, limited expansion possibilities, and poor ergonimics.
For pure "fit and feel" I chose NCE over equally capable- -if not more feature-packed systems.
At some point, it just comes down to what you like, barring other decision-making forces; as noted above.
MJ4562Otherwise I thing (SIC) y'all talked me out of DCC.
That's a choice you will ultimately have to make on your own.
As someone who's presumption that DC was MY answer and later converted to DCC I can only offer up my thoughts.
York1 I've read quite a few comments in various threads that the main reason for having DCC is sound, and if you're not interested in sound, then go with DC.