Thanks, Robert. Those would definitely be important pluses on a sizable layout. For a small-to-medium layout? Probably not as much - at least, IMO.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
tstage Other than the dedicated programming track output and RS232 port, I don't see any other "increased capabilities" over the Power Cab/SB5 combo. My NCE USB module works really well with Decoder Pro on my laptop. I also like the flexibility of being able to use my Power Cab at my workbench to program decoders. Tom
Other than the dedicated programming track output and RS232 port, I don't see any other "increased capabilities" over the Power Cab/SB5 combo. My NCE USB module works really well with Decoder Pro on my laptop. I also like the flexibility of being able to use my Power Cab at my workbench to program decoders.
SB5 -
Maximum number of cabs: 6
Maximum number of simultaneous trains: 18
Maximum number of advanced consists: 16
CS02 -
Maximum number of cabs: 63
Maximum number of simultaneous trains: 250
Maximum number of advanced consists: 127
It could be useful if you are switching from another brand and already have boosters, or if you have a Power Cab + Smartbooster and want the increased capabilities of the CS02 over the Smartbooster.
One thing that I still wonder about is why NCE created the CS02. It does have a powered programming track, but no track power booster or power supply. What's the point?
Rich
Alton Junction
Yep. When hooked up to the SB5, your Power Cab essentially turns into a ProCab throttle because the command station/booster of the Power Cab is automatically overrided by the SB5. Now you can unplug and plug your Power Cab w/o the layout shutting down.
Anyhow, glad to hear it's working well for you. Did you end up calling NCE today?
Hooked up the SB5 today, everything is up and running again!
Less than 5 minutes to hook it up!
Works both with my NCE Power cabs and my NCE Pro cabs.
All functions work!
I don't need the CS02 at all, returning it.
Ed
richhotrain I have the NCE PH-Pro 5 amp starter system which is a command station/5 amp booster in one box. When I decided to add a second 5 amp booster to divide my large layout into a series of power districts and reversing sections, I purchased the DB5. That makes perfect sense since the integral booster on the PH-Pro is, in effect, a smart booster. So, there was no requirement to add an SB5, nor would an SB5 be appropriate instead of a DB5, since an SB5 would have to be configured as a slave only booster to my command station. Since the CS02 is a command station, a DB5 is an appropriate booster. The DB5 is a "dumb" booster, and it takes its commands from the CS02. That's why an SB5 is not used with the CS02 unless it is configure as a "slave". At least that is my understanding. As I understand it, NCE introduced the SB5, a 5 amp booster, as an upgrade to the Power Cab to provide more power. If you want to add a second booster to the upgraded Power Cab, then you would choose the DB5 since you already have a smart booster, the SB5. Rich
I have the NCE PH-Pro 5 amp starter system which is a command station/5 amp booster in one box. When I decided to add a second 5 amp booster to divide my large layout into a series of power districts and reversing sections, I purchased the DB5. That makes perfect sense since the integral booster on the PH-Pro is, in effect, a smart booster. So, there was no requirement to add an SB5, nor would an SB5 be appropriate instead of a DB5, since an SB5 would have to be configured as a slave only booster to my command station.
Since the CS02 is a command station, a DB5 is an appropriate booster. The DB5 is a "dumb" booster, and it takes its commands from the CS02. That's why an SB5 is not used with the CS02 unless it is configure as a "slave". At least that is my understanding.
As I understand it, NCE introduced the SB5, a 5 amp booster, as an upgrade to the Power Cab to provide more power. If you want to add a second booster to the upgraded Power Cab, then you would choose the DB5 since you already have a smart booster, the SB5.
All true, it's too bad NCE isn't clear about that in their documentation.
tstageSometimes it pays to browse through the manufacturer's manual for a given piece of equipment first before you purchase something. This can often help give you a better understanding what it will and will not do and whether it's going to meet your current and future needs. At least the CS02 is still a viable alternative for you should you opt to power it with the SB5 serving as a DB5.
The problem is NCE is very lacking in information for some of their products and in those cases the manuals are not of much help. The manual for the DB5 makes no mention of using the DB5 in any way other than with an SB5, so without a more thorough understanding of how all the pieces work together the DB5 manual makes it sound like it can only be used with an SB5. The DB3 and DB3a manuals both show using those devices without an SB, so I don't know why they dropped that information in the DB5 manual.
tstage TheK4Kid On the sellers site it states "DO NOT" buy this DB5 unless you have an SB5 It will not work unless you have an SB5 Re-read Eric's Points #3 & #4 again. Yes, a DB5 needs to be grounded to a SB5 in order to work properly. What Eric stated was that both a DB5 and a SB5 ("dumbed down" to a DB5) can be used as a booster for a CS02 - just like a dumbed down SB5 can be used with another SB5 as a DB5. I'm not sure what seller you are referring to but the folks at TTE have been selling NCE products for a lonnnng time so I would give them the benefit of the doubt of what will and will not work together.
TheK4Kid On the sellers site it states "DO NOT" buy this DB5 unless you have an SB5 It will not work unless you have an SB5
Re-read Eric's Points #3 & #4 again. Yes, a DB5 needs to be grounded to a SB5 in order to work properly. What Eric stated was that both a DB5 and a SB5 ("dumbed down" to a DB5) can be used as a booster for a CS02 - just like a dumbed down SB5 can be used with another SB5 as a DB5. I'm not sure what seller you are referring to but the folks at TTE have been selling NCE products for a lonnnng time so I would give them the benefit of the doubt of what will and will not work together.
TheK4KidI just did some reading on the NCE website... It also states that the SB5 will work with a NCE POwer Cab or an NCE Pro Cab The SB5 was designed to operate up to 10 DCC locomotives simultaneously. So it sounds like all I have to do is power up the SB5 , and and hook up a a line from the cab bus on the SB5 to the UTP cab plug ins and I'll be all set to go. If you doubt me go read the manuals at the NCE website.
It also states that the SB5 will work with a NCE POwer Cab or an NCE Pro Cab
The SB5 was designed to operate up to 10 DCC locomotives simultaneously.
So it sounds like all I have to do is power up the SB5 , and and hook up a a line from the cab bus on the SB5 to the UTP cab plug ins and I'll be all set to go.
If you doubt me go read the manuals at the NCE website.
Ed,
I own an SB3a/SB5 and a Power Cab so I already know they work together. The SB3 was actually the predecessor to the SB5 and came out in 2008. The SB3 was updated to the SB5 in 2013.
As mentioned, you can use the SB5 with any NCE throttle because it's a command station/booster. So, a Power Cab, ProCab, or CAB-06 throttle can all be used to operate your layout. The disadvantage of the CAB-06 is that it has less functionality than the Power Cab or ProCab throttle...but it can and does work.
The amount of locomotives any DCC system can operate simultaneously is contingent on the sum total current draw of the locomotives you have operating on your layout at a given time. 0.25A per motor-only decoder and 0.5A per sound decoder is a general accepted norm. However, some newer decoders with newer locomotives may draw less current than that - e.g. 0.25A and <. You could also have an older locomotive with a less efficient motor that draws upward of 1A. I installed a coreless motor in a 2-6-6-2 brass Mallet that is outfitted with a Loksound decoder and two speakers and it draws <0.1A. So, you might be able to operate more than 10 locomotives with the SB5 as your booster.
You can operate your throttles directly from the SB5 or via any UTP panels you have daisy-chained around your layout from your SB5. The advantage of the UTP panel is that you conveniently unplug & plug your throttles so that they become true walkarounds. With the Power Cab - if you unplugged it from the PCP panel - your layout would shut down. Connected to the SB5, however, you can unplug & plug your Power Cab and your trains continue to run.
TheK4KidOn the sellers site it states "DO NOT" buy this DB5 unless you have an SB5 It will not work unless you have an SB5
TheK4KidI think NCE should be mor specific about their equipment
Sometimes it pays to browse through the manufacturer's manual for a given piece of equipment first before you purchase something. This can often help give you a better understanding what it will and will not do and whether it's going to meet your current and future needs. At least the CS02 is still a viable alternative for you should you opt to power it with the SB5 serving as a DB5.
I just did some reading on the NCE website.
The CS02 was designed to be used with the PH-110 sytem which puts out 10 amps of power, far too much power for an HO scale system.
Thanks for all the replkies I have received on this subject!
tstage Rich, Am I correct in understanding that the CS02 has only 1A of output? That's less than the Power Cab. Since the CS02 is only the command station, Ed's booster options would therfore be the follow (using TTE's website and Erik's info as reference): DB5 - $187.16 (power supply included) PB5 - $202.76 (power supply included) SB5 - $218.76 (power supply included) PB105 - $163.76 + $62.36 for NCE #P515 power supply (NOT included) PB110 - $329.95 + cost of power supply (NOT included) So, the DB5 would be the least expensive option with the PB5 $15 more. Both include the power supply. The SB5 is $30 more than the DB5 and, too, includes the power supply. Ed already purchased the SB5 and received it today. The cost of returning it and swapping it for either the DB5 or PB5 would essentially cost him $15-30 in S&H(?) The PB105 (and separate P515 power supply) is only a little more than the SB5 and its power supply. If Ed hadn't already purchased the SB5, I would suggest the PB105, since that is what is essentially sold together with the CS02 to create the PH Pro 5A system. And he'd have the dedicated programming track bus with the CS02, as you pointed out. But...since Ed has already purchased and has the SB5 in-hand, perhaps that's the most cost-effect option for him at this point. He can use as is with his Power Cab thottles...or as a DB5 with his CS02. Tom
Rich,
Am I correct in understanding that the CS02 has only 1A of output? That's less than the Power Cab.
Since the CS02 is only the command station, Ed's booster options would therfore be the follow (using TTE's website and Erik's info as reference):
So, the DB5 would be the least expensive option with the PB5 $15 more. Both include the power supply. The SB5 is $30 more than the DB5 and, too, includes the power supply. Ed already purchased the SB5 and received it today. The cost of returning it and swapping it for either the DB5 or PB5 would essentially cost him $15-30 in S&H(?)
The PB105 (and separate P515 power supply) is only a little more than the SB5 and its power supply. If Ed hadn't already purchased the SB5, I would suggest the PB105, since that is what is essentially sold together with the CS02 to create the PH Pro 5A system. And he'd have the dedicated programming track bus with the CS02, as you pointed out.
But...since Ed has already purchased and has the SB5 in-hand, perhaps that's the most cost-effect option for him at this point. He can use as is with his Power Cab thottles...or as a DB5 with his CS02.
On the sellers site it states "DO NOT" buy this DB5 unless you have an SB5
It will not work unless you have an SB5
I sent NCE customer support an email, but most likely won't hear back until tomorrow 12/23
I think NCE should be mor specific about their equipment
Regards,
Iron Rail Hobbies
tstage Rich, Am I correct in understanding that the CS02 has only 1A of output?
Am I correct in understanding that the CS02 has only 1A of output?
tstage But...since Ed has already purchased and has the SB5 in-hand, perhaps that's the most cost-effect option for him at this point.
But...since Ed has already purchased and has the SB5 in-hand, perhaps that's the most cost-effect option for him at this point.
tstage Ed, The NCE Smart Booster (SB5) is a 5A command station/booster. When you plug a Power Cab into it, it overrides the command station/booster of the 1.7A Power Cab; essentially turning it into a ProCab throttle. You can plug any NCE throttle - i.e. Power Cab, ProCab, CAB-06 - into an SB5 and control your layout. What you don't get with an SB5 is a dedicated programming bus. But you don't need one, if you a Power Cab. You would need the Power Cab's PCP panel separately for programming. This you could use at your benchtop w/o needing to have it connected to your layout. As mentioned, the SB5 gives you 5A of total power. If, for example, each sound decoder uses 0.5A, that will allow you to operate 8-9 locomotives w/sound with a little buffer leftover. That should be quite sufficient for your needs, I'd presume. BTW, what are you using as a throttle? You keep talking about the CS01/CS02 command stations but I missed any mention of how you are controlling your locomotives. Tom
The NCE Smart Booster (SB5) is a 5A command station/booster. When you plug a Power Cab into it, it overrides the command station/booster of the 1.7A Power Cab; essentially turning it into a ProCab throttle.
You can plug any NCE throttle - i.e. Power Cab, ProCab, CAB-06 - into an SB5 and control your layout. What you don't get with an SB5 is a dedicated programming bus. But you don't need one, if you a Power Cab. You would need the Power Cab's PCP panel separately for programming. This you could use at your benchtop w/o needing to have it connected to your layout.
As mentioned, the SB5 gives you 5A of total power. If, for example, each sound decoder uses 0.5A, that will allow you to operate 8-9 locomotives w/sound with a little buffer leftover. That should be quite sufficient for your needs, I'd presume.
BTW, what are you using as a throttle? You keep talking about the CS01/CS02 command stations but I missed any mention of how you are controlling your locomotives.
Tom,
Thanks for the reply.
I have two Power Cab controllers and 3 Pro Cab controllerswith Two UTP plg ins on both sides of my layout and two spare UTP units still NIB .
I will plan on sending the CS02 unit back to the seller I got it bfrom.
Thankss for clearing things up for me.
When I went on NCE's website, from the information I saw there they indiscated the CS01 had been retired and I thought the CS02 unit was its replacement.
At the time I didn't understand the CS02 unit did not have a 5 amp booster built in like the CS01 had.
THanks again!
TheK4KidBut what I am reading about the SB5 unit is it is both a command station and booster in the same unit. So I won't even need a new CS02 unit?
As mentioned, the SB5 does not have a program track output. I believe all current decoders support ops mode programming, so could be programmed without the program track output, but I don't know that for sure (it is not a requirement to be NMRA compliant). Additionally, if you program a wrong address and don't know the new address of the decoder you may not be able to program it since you need to know the address of the decoder to program it in ops mode (you can actually do ops mode programming to the broadcast address, but I don't know if NCE supports that).
The CS02 has a dedicated programming track. As I understand it, a DB5 booster can be used with a CS02. The DB5 is normally purchased with a power supply. The OP would not need the SB5 which would be configured as a slave booster with the CS02. So, the SB5 seems like overkill since the OP already owns the CS02 command station.
fiskerbiscuit K4Kid and all, To clarify: The CS02 is a DCC command station only. It does require a separate power supply. Most users take power from their NCE Brutus or NCE P515 The NCE SB5 is a DCC command station and 5 amp track booster. NCE designed it as an upgrade path for the Power Cab [1.6amps nominal] The SB5 can be configured as a slave only booster to be used with a CS02 command station Any NCE booster including the PB5, DB5, PB105 and PB110 can be used with a CS02 The PB5 and DB5 5amp boosters are identical in terms of hardware and differ only in the external case. Both have integrated P514 power supplies The PB105 booster is identical to the PB5/DB5 and uses the same external housing as a PB5. The PB105 does NOT come with a power supply. The PB105 requires a 15vac, 5amp power supply such as the NCE P515 The PB110 booster requires at minimum a 18vac, 10 amp power supply such as the NCE Brutus or Digitrax PS2012e. The PB110 will not function correctly with a P515 power supply I hope this clears up any confusion. Erik Fiske, Tony's Train Exchange
K4Kid and all,
To clarify:
I hope this clears up any confusion.
Erik Fiske, Tony's Train Exchange
Erik Fiske
If I have an NCE SB5 power booster, then would I even need a CS02 command station?
My understanding is the CS02 was the updated replacement for the now retired CS01.
But what I am reading about the SB5 unit is it is both a command station and booster in the same unit.
So I won't even need a new CS02 unit?
MY layout is built on three tables, each 6 feet wide by 8 feet long with two side by side main lines and and one long figure eight with two side by side main lines and several sidings around the entire layout.
I am still working on my layout. I can run 4 DCC powered trains at once on the layout. So will the SB5 command station-booster be sufficient?
What I want to clarify, is a CS02 command station would be totally unneccessary to hook up with the SB5 unit?
I did order one, but I have not even unboxed it, so I could return it then.
The SB5 unit I ordered arrived today 12/22/2021.
So this is all I need is this correct?
THanks
My MRC 8 amp unit I have set back on a workshop shelf, and it has never been used.
I may sell it later on
We NCE users can frame the prior reply from Tony's Train Exchange and hang it on our layout wall. Thank you, Erik Fiske!
TheK4KidSince there is very little technical information available on the MRC Power Station 8
The MRC Power Statin 8 is expecting a DCC track output as it's input. The contorl bus output fro the CS02 is just a low power version of the track output, so it most likely would work as the input to the Power Station 8.
TheK4KidMy only other alternative was to completly change over to a Digitrax system, but I already have the NCE CS02 brand new
Actually, you could just get a Digitrax booster. Nce has instructions for wiring the CS02 to a Digitrax booster here:https://ncedcc.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/200590769-Digitrax-and-Lenz-Connections
Several years ago NCE completely redid their website and ever since some information has been hard to find on it.
TheK4KidThe SB5 unit is needed, and after you add an SB5 , you can add DB5 units to the SB5. The only output of the CS02 is is the track programming.
No, you do NOT need the SB5 with the CS02. The DB5 manual is not clear on this because it was written for the Power Cab (The SB5 and DB5, "Smart" Booster and "Dumb" booster, were designed primarily for the Power Cab, though they will work with the other systems). The "smart" part of the SB5 is a built in command station with a control bus output. The Power Cab does not have a separate control bus output so you need the SB5 to be able to add additioinal dumb boosters. The CS02 does have a control bus output for connecting to boosters so you do not need the "smart" part of the SB5. In fact, to use the SB5 with the CS02, you will have to disable the "smart" part.
Hello All,
When I was trying to "Franken-bash" (upgrade) my dead-end DCC system with NCE components, I contacted them:
Support@ncecorporation.com
Even though what I was attempting was not possible, the great folks at NCE provided me with the information and schematics I requested.
After reviewing the materials they sent I decided it would be easier to upgrade the entire DCC system to NCE and avoid the hassle of piecemealing.
Reach out to them before doing any more damage through trial and error.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
mikeGTW K4 or anyone I looked at documentaion for the CS02 and it only shows output for a program track nothing for the mains The diagram in the pdf from NCE shows a PB100 connected to the CS02 and the track power coming from the PB110 Just curious
K4 or anyone I looked at documentaion for the CS02 and it only shows output for a program track nothing for the mains The diagram in the pdf from NCE shows a PB100 connected to the CS02 and the track power coming from the PB110
Just curious
That's correct.
The SB5 unit is needed, and after you add an SB5 , you can add DB5 units to the SB5.
The only output of the CS02 is is the track programming.
There is not a "track" output on the CS02 unit. I myself did not relaize this until I received the CS02 units I purchased. This is why I was wondering about the use of an MRC Power Station 8 unit with the CS02 .
However lacking a schematic diagram of the MRC unit, I can not figure out how to wire it with the CS02.
I may have had to design and build some circuitry to mate the CS02 unit and the MRC unit and that would not only take some time, but I'd have to order parts, etc.
And there would have had been some cost to it also.
I saw the SB5 unit add on as the quickest and easiest way to solve my problem.As far as the MRC unit producing 8 amps of track power, I could hace designed a circuit to cut it down to 5 amps.
But yet again, it would require time and parts and some cost.
So I decided to spend the extra money on the SB5 unit, which is required to make the the CS02 unit work to run DCC trains.
The NCE PB110 unit is a 10 amp power unit designed to be used "only" with O gauge and bigger G gauge trains, not, I repeat not HO scale!
Yes, I meant SB5, I have went back and edited my post.
I can run 4 DCC locomotives with sound and a set of PRR heavy weight passenger cars with lights when I was using an NCE CS01 unit. I don't know if that was overloading it , but I can't see where it would have. I also have a "surge" protection power unit hooked up between the wall power outlet and the NCE power supply to the NCE CS01 unit, so I would think a surge would not get through. It's a very high quality surge protection unit.
I decided on the surge protection unit before I ever built my layout.
With my background in electronics egineering and also my background in military radar and missilke guidance systems development, I am wondering if any or perhaps many of the elctronic components used in the CS01 units were imported from China or elewhere and were not of the highest quality that they could have been. The tolerances we used in military systems were almost always of + or - 1 percent tolerances.
I also own some quite expensive Pioneer and other high end stereo equipment and have had components fail, usually capacitors or resistors in the audio circuitry and I have replaced them with higher quality capacitors and resistors they no longer fail.
Ed aka "TheK4Kid"