wrench567 I guess the real bonehead move was to start this thread. What a tangent we have been on. Maps, lawyers, and definitions aside. The locomotive is done and waiting for it's mission. Eleven more sound decoders and the fleet is done. The next question is. What do I do with all the mobile decoders I have been removing? That's it for now. Pete.
I guess the real bonehead move was to start this thread. What a tangent we have been on. Maps, lawyers, and definitions aside. The locomotive is done and waiting for it's mission.
Eleven more sound decoders and the fleet is done. The next question is. What do I do with all the mobile decoders I have been removing?
That's it for now.
Pete.
Depending on the models of the decoders I may be interested. I'll send you a PM as buying is prohibited on the threads.
JJF
Prototypically modeling the Great Northern in Minnesota with just a hint of freelancing.
Yesterday is History.
Tomorrow is a Mystery.
But today is a Gift, that is why it is called the Present.
who has NOT made a bonehead move? That is how we learn?
If your decoders are all good and working-sell them. Discount deep and move them out.
LastspikemikeFront and rear protection use crumple zones between the point of impact and the passenger cabin. That isn't feasible for locomotives. Forces decelerating the train have to be transferred around the cab somehow.
EMD at least made an attempt at "crumple zones" in addidtion the railroad designers attempted to provide crash posts or pillars very early on to reduce the impact of "telescope" type injuries.
PRR_5805_CUS by Edmund, on Flickr
https://railroads.dot.gov/program-areas/train-occupant-protection/locomotive-occupant-safety
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_comfort_cab
Good Luck, Ed
LastspikemikeIf crash forces can be transferred around the cab then occupants of the cab would be somewhat protected. The danger comes from the weight (mass x deceleration) of the train behind the cab. That kinetic energy has to go somewhere. In auto safety design force transfer structures are used for side collision protection because crush zones are not available along the sides of passenger automobiles. Front and rear protection use crumple zones between the point of impact and the passenger cabin. That isn't feasible for locomotives. Forces decelerating the train have to be transferred around the cab somehow.
I don't think safety cabs were really designed to protect the occupants from being crushed by the train behind them, but from whatever it is they are hitting. Most train wrecks are grade crossing accidents were the train is hitting something much smaller and barely even slowing down. In these cases the cab just has to maintain it's structural integrity as it obliterates whatever it just hit.
LastspikemikeThere's a crew safety aspect that may have subliminally been a factor. Certainly sitting right out front there might have been a tad intimidating at first.
Interestingly, EMD cab units were designed to fail aft of the cab to absorb some of the blow in a collision, so the cab may have been the safest place to be
https://www.jigidi.com/jigsaw-puzzle/m5ok9gb5/wrecked-rio-grande-f7-no-5661/
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Yeah, that was pretty bad.
I'm confused... is a lawyer half buried in sand or 10,000 lawyers at the ocean... it doesn't seem like you know.
For not coming here to argue...
-Kevin
Living the dream.
A fueling curve for a diesel engine is just a table of numbers.
Every engineer I ever worked with used the term "fuel mapping" for adjusting these tables. When they made large changes, "remapping" was the term.
maxmanSorry, but no, you are again incorrect.
This makes what, 10,000 times?
Lastspikemike maxman Q: What do you call a lawyer at the bottom of the Schuylkill River? A: A good start. That's incorrect. The joke goes what do you call a lawyer half buried in sand....
maxman Q: What do you call a lawyer at the bottom of the Schuylkill River? A: A good start.
Q: What do you call a lawyer at the bottom of the Schuylkill River?
A: A good start.
That's incorrect. The joke goes what do you call a lawyer half buried in sand....
Sorry, but no, you are again incorrect.
CNR378You may state opinion but rarely have I seen you state fact.
When he does state fact, it tends to be copy/paste lifted from someone elses reply.
Well, a lawyer lawyering about the accuracy and correct presentation of lawyer jokes... what next?
When will this insanity end?
Lastspikemike I also make no argument. I merely state the facts. Others are arguing, again as always.
I also make no argument. I merely state the facts. Others are arguing, again as always.
You may state opinion but rarely have I seen you state fact. And fact,every thread I see your name in you are arguing.
LastspikemikeA table is not a map.
Yes it is. In software development such tables were referred to as mapping, and changing those tables were referred to as remapping, long before the term "originated" with internal cumbustion egine remapping.
richhotrainHas it even crossed your mind that regarding decoders, manufacturers have, in fact, changed the denotation of map to a connotation of map?
Amen.
https://dccwiki.com/Function_Mapping
I have now mapped out a plan for my afternoon to include a nap.
Cheers, Ed
Lastspikemike As always, I did not take the first shovel full out of this rabbit hole nor have I dug it any deeper or started a new entrance. I also make no argument. I merely state the facts. Others are arguing, again as always.
As always, I did not take the first shovel full out of this rabbit hole nor have I dug it any deeper or started a new entrance.
Lastspikemike Remapping implies a map which gets remapped. DCC doesn't involve any mapping. Therefore DCC doesn't involve any remapping.
Remapping implies a map which gets remapped. DCC doesn't involve any mapping. Therefore DCC doesn't involve any remapping.
Alton Junction
Lastspikemike Remapping has only one denotation: making a new map i.e. of some geographical area. In English a word can develop as many connotations as society can tolerate. Eventually the denotation can change to the most popular and more recent connotation. I don't see how changing one F button on a DCC throttle is any sort of remap of the device because there's no map to begin with. But then an icon isn't any sort of icon but almost nobody knows the denotation any longer. And so it goes.
Remapping has only one denotation: making a new map i.e. of some geographical area.
In English a word can develop as many connotations as society can tolerate.
Eventually the denotation can change to the most popular and more recent connotation.
I don't see how changing one F button on a DCC throttle is any sort of remap of the device because there's no map to begin with. But then an icon isn't any sort of icon but almost nobody knows the denotation any longer. And so it goes.
That said, DCC users have no practical choice but to use the terms "mapping" and "remapping" in communicating with other DCC users and with maufacturers' customer service personnel. In effect, mapping and remapping are being used as transitive verbs to lay out Function keys in a new pattern, facilitated by the construction of a Function matrix.
Experienced DCC users understand this and are conversant with the use of such terms as mapping and remapping. Less experienced DCC users and some, but not all, DC users are less likely to grasp such unfamiliar terminology. And so it goes.
So, word games aside, DCC does, indeed, involve remapping should the user find it necessary or desirable.
LastspikemikeRemapping has only one denotation: making a new map i.e. of some geographical area. In English a word can develop as many connotations as society can tolerate. Eventually the denotation can change to the most popular and more recent connotation.
You can argue semantics till the cows come home but it's a general understanding amongst the MRRing community that remapping a decoder changes the default for a particular function button so that it now does something different than its original default setting. You are not changing the entire map - just one of the routes to the new destination.
Soooo...change with the denotation that is clearly understood by DCC users at large - i.e. those who remap their decoders to suit their desires and needs.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Lastspikemike I don't see how changing one F button on a DCC throttle is any sort of remap of the device because there's no map to begin with.
As I already stated, there is a map.
I found this Q&A informative:
https://www.trains.com/trn/train-basics/ask-trains/why-long-hood-vs-short/
In part, it reads:
Q When diesels replaced steam locomotives, early cab units had snub noses with good front visibility for the engineer. When hood units appeared, some railroads set them up to run short hood forward and some chose long hood forward. What influenced the decision?
A First, it’s important to note on any diesel where the little “F” is painted. That end, of course, normally is the leading end, but its real purpose is to establish for the whole crew which way is “forward” and which is “reverse” when the conductor or designated ground crewmember gives hand or radio signals to the lead unit’s engineer to move the locomotive or train.
The first “hood unit” or road-switcher, the pre-World War II Alco RS1, was designed to run long-hood forward, as were most – but not all – later Alcos and Baldwins. EMD’s postwar GP7 usually was set up short-hood forward, but the set-up was a customer option.
In the GP7/GP9 era, many Eastern roads, plus the Great Northern, chose long-hood forward, but they were the minority. Some roads specified dual controls, enabling the engineer to run either way from the right side of the cab; commuter carriers such as the pictured Central Railroad of New Jersey were good examples.The lack of a wye or turning facility on a given route often required a solo engine without dual controls to run long hood first, engineer on the left. Regardless, the fireman had lookout duty, especially on his side.
A few railroads (Southern and Norfolk & Western stood out) chose dual controls but ran long-hood first by agreement with the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and/or Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen & Enginemen; the stated rationale was to provide protection for the engine crew in the event of a grade-crossing collision. (The Pennsylvania Railroad’s GG1 electrics were designed with cabs toward the center for the same reason.)
Remapping has multiple meanings, some of which were used before internal combustion engines were controlled by computers.
The decoder has an internal map of "this" command does "this" function, changing that map is remapping.
wjstixIt depends on how they have it now, and how they want it. To me, function remapping is changing which function button does what, like moving the bell from F1 to F7.
I submit that 'function remapping' is properly reserved for decoder programming, while what Stix is describing should be called 'function button remapping' and is a user-interface concern.
CSX Robert wjstix IF you have a Lokprogrammer (or Decoder Pro), I'd think you could have just changed which light does what in programming without making any physical changes to the engine. It wouldn't have required function remapping. That's exactly what function remapping is.
wjstix IF you have a Lokprogrammer (or Decoder Pro), I'd think you could have just changed which light does what in programming without making any physical changes to the engine. It wouldn't have required function remapping.
IF you have a Lokprogrammer (or Decoder Pro), I'd think you could have just changed which light does what in programming without making any physical changes to the engine. It wouldn't have required function remapping.
That's exactly what function remapping is.
Lastspikemike DC and DCC are different ergonomically speaking. DC left and right are always the same except in reversing sections. In DC there is no long hood forward option unless the locomotive is actually wired "backwards". Locomotive direction isn't affected by which way round the locomotive is facing. For DCC the direction indicator on the throttle doesn't give you the same relative information. This becomes obvious if you run a DCC locomotive coded to run in "reverse" direction, which is an entirely arbitrary description just btw, on a DC powered track. I'm still not sure if all decoders retain the motor reverse polarity setting when running in DC mode but some do, maybe most. For example, if only one of your locomotives runs long hood forward I fail to see the advantage in matching the arrow or indeed the F on the throttle to the direction the locomotive will travel when you start it up or indeed the direction the locomotive may be facing. If you operate in DCC mode one day and DC the next day, for example, this point will become obvious quite rapidly.
DC and DCC are different ergonomically speaking. DC left and right are always the same except in reversing sections. In DC there is no long hood forward option unless the locomotive is actually wired "backwards". Locomotive direction isn't affected by which way round the locomotive is facing.
For DCC the direction indicator on the throttle doesn't give you the same relative information. This becomes obvious if you run a DCC locomotive coded to run in "reverse" direction, which is an entirely arbitrary description just btw, on a DC powered track. I'm still not sure if all decoders retain the motor reverse polarity setting when running in DC mode but some do, maybe most.
For example, if only one of your locomotives runs long hood forward I fail to see the advantage in matching the arrow or indeed the F on the throttle to the direction the locomotive will travel when you start it up or indeed the direction the locomotive may be facing. If you operate in DCC mode one day and DC the next day, for example, this point will become obvious quite rapidly.
Of course there's a long hood forward option in DC, you just turn the locomotive around. In DC, you don't have to worry about which end of the locomotive is the front, because you are controlling the physical direction it is moving. In DCC you do need to know which end is the front. Sure "forward" and "reverse", or "front " and "rear" are arbitrary on some locomotives, but you still need some way of distinguishing one end verses the other. It is true, the "front" doesn't necessarily have to match the "F", as long as you know which end is the front. You could have the short hood of all of your hood locomotives be the front, even if some of them normally run long hood forward, but you still need that relationship between the throttle and locomotive that tells you "when the throttle says "forward, or "right", or whatever, which direction is the locomotive going to move, unless you want to rely on trial and error.
CSX Robertto me an arrow pointing toward the front or rear of an engine is just as clear as FWD and REV
Okay, now that I understand the imagery better, Robert - yea, that would be intuitive and work well. I thought it was just an arrow pointing either left or right, which would be more ambiguous.
York1 tstage I like the way NCE designed their throttles. FWD means forward and REV means reverse, which makes it very clear when reading the LCD display. It's up to the operator to determine which end will be forward when initially programming a diesel locomotive. I have NCE and I like that, too. It also was very easy to set up a consist with locomotives facing different directions. Clear and easy to do.
tstage I like the way NCE designed their throttles. FWD means forward and REV means reverse, which makes it very clear when reading the LCD display. It's up to the operator to determine which end will be forward when initially programming a diesel locomotive.
I have NCE and I like that, too.
It also was very easy to set up a consist with locomotives facing different directions. Clear and easy to do.
Setting up consists with Digitrax is clear and easy to do also, and to me an arrow pointing toward the front or rear of an engine is just as clear as FWD and REV.
tstageI like the way NCE designed their throttles. FWD means forward and REV means reverse, which makes it very clear when reading the LCD display. It's up to the operator to determine which end will be forward when initially programming a diesel locomotive.
York1 John
I managed to do it with real ones once. I got one going in the opposite direction from two others when consisting them.