gregcnot in my town. when i built my garage i wired it and the inspector approved it
I helped my uncle build his house when I was 19. I did every bit of the wiring in it. When the inspector came my Uncle told him I did all the wiring and he said it was probably the neatest job he had ever seen and found nothing wrong. Of course, this is British Columbia, not Alberta. Laws must be different there.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
7j43kBeing before my time, what IS "four-wire branch construction"?
Three-wire has all the neutrals on the branch in common, and they don't even have to pass through the switchbox. Only the hot is switched.
The logic (such as it was) was that people expecting the safety of four-wire might get themselves electrocuted doing fixture wiring with just the switch off (this being the era of fuses, not breakers) so -- rather than allowing safety for a little more $$$, they mandated the predictably-less-safe construction for everyone.
gregc Lastspikemike Rewiring a house requires an electrical permit. Only a ticketed Master Electrician can pull that permit and he or she signs off when the work is complete.
Lastspikemike Rewiring a house requires an electrical permit. Only a ticketed Master Electrician can pull that permit and he or she signs off when the work is complete.
Same here...I built my own house and I applied for a permit, which allowed me to wire my own house. When I was finished, the Ontario Hydro inspector went over the whole house very thoroughly, knowing that I was not a professional electrician. He not only passed it unconditionally, but also termed it one of the neatest wiring jobs that he had ever seen.
Wayne
gregcnot in my town
And if one still doesn't understand why one might need a multimeter to test house wiring, please stop spouting off that it's unneccesary. There are issues it can reveal that your lamp plugged in will not. Dangerous issues.
Mike
Water Level RouteAnd if one still doesn't understand why one might need a multimeter to test house wiring, please stop spouting off that it's unneccesary. There are issues it can reveal that your lamp plugged in will not. Dangerous issues.
Man, all this discussion has me worried.
When my electrician did the wiring in my house he used a meter and checked everything as he went along, and when the job was complete.
He also used his meter to verify power was off. Not a light or a drill, but a meter. He told me why this was critical to be safe, but I do not remember the terms he used.
I guess I hired a moron. He seemed to think it was important to verify that everything was correct when all was said-and-done.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
SeeYou190I guess I hired a moron.
Testing with a meter is like the contrapositive of testing power semiconductors like SCRs: potentially dangerous voltage might be present at insufficient amperage to light a high-wattage bulb or run a motor device.
doctorwayne the Ontario Hydro inspector went over the whole house very thoroughly, knowing that I was not a professional electrician.
Ya, same here. He had a good, long, careful look. Then a pat on the back.
Anybody remember when Brown outs were a thing?
Sometime in the early 2000s I would come home from work on second shift and walking in the house would hear the refrigerator compressor buzzing loudly.
Something didn't seem right and I noticed the lights weren't as bright as usual, too. Off to get the meter. Yes, you know what I did next. Poke those probes into the slots of a recepticle!
91.3 Volts AC! I went around and unplugged as many electronic devices I could easily access. This had been going on for weeks. I had one of the electronics guys at GE make up a recording meter for me.
It was an old Bailey Meter recording chart and would record the line voltage over a one week period. Of course the power company denied any problem. Everything is fine on our end.
The voltage would drop to 90-100 volts several times a night between midnight and six am. After about a month of this it finally stopped.
Today I have several UPSs with readouts on incoming line voltage and frequency shown on the display. I use the meter less often since I trust that readout.
Still, I like to be able to read the voltage the power company is providing. It isnt always what they say it is.
Similar to others above, I've also done some of my home wiring on a building addition and a pole barn. Electrical inspectors were quite satisfied with the job.
FWIW, I also take amperage readings of appliances using an inductive ammeter. A good diagnostic tool to have. Nice to have a baseline current reading when an appliance is new so you can see what problems there might be when reading current draw in the future.
Layout_amps2 by Edmund, on Flickr
Also FWIW my entire HO layout current draw is 2.6 amps:
Layout_amps3 by Edmund, on Flickr
Regards, Ed
LastspikemikeMy posts are intended to reach reasonably intelligent people who might understand and appreciate the warning. The rest of you are on your own.
The rest of you are on your own.
Wow!!
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
gregc Lastspikemike My posts are intended to reach reasonably intelligent people who might understand and appreciate the warning. The rest of you are on your own. Wow!!
Lastspikemike My posts are intended to reach reasonably intelligent people who might understand and appreciate the warning. The rest of you are on your own.
In my 64 years, I have done quite well for myself. So some idiots are able to run the gauntlet.
LastspikemikeIn Western Canada at least it is no longer legal to just build your own house and a substantial renovation is included in the definition of building a house.
That sounds rather draconian. What happened...the homebuilders buy-out the home inspectors so that they can build their own substandard dwellings with no fear of repercussions?
When the local inspector, a new hire, came to inspect my house, he decided that I had failed to use joist hangers around the stairwells for both the basement and second floor. I suggested that he look more closely, as the headers around the openings were doubled, the joists very well-secured by appropriately-size nails through the first layer of headers, the second layer added over that, as I had been taught by a professional stair builder.He would have none of my protests, and indicated that he would come back in a couple of days.
I dutifully added joist hangers, but there were two close-together joists (all were otherwise on 12" centres) at one end of the stairwell opening (and not at all part of it) that was too close to the last one to allow space for a hammer of any type.
I used a cut-off disc to shorten the required number of nails down to the heads and about 1/4" of length for each, then installed them in that tight space with a light tap using a crowbar.
When the inspector showed-up, he pronounced the work to be "to code", and issued my occupancy permit.In the 33 years since then, the house has not collapsed, and the stairs still don't creak.
I could tell a related story about the guy who made the blueprints and the same building inspector who very mistakenly approved them, too, but I don't want to wander away from this discussion. I think that the joist-hanger episode was his way of attempting to verify his competence...which didn't at all register with me.
doctorwayne I could tell a related story about the guy who made the blueprints and the same building inspector who very mistakenly approved them, too, but I don't want to wander away from this discussion.
I could tell a related story about the guy who made the blueprints and the same building inspector who very mistakenly approved them, too, but I don't want to wander away from this discussion.
Rich
Alton Junction
Threads get derailed because people want to argue with Mike over something he said wrongly. No, they don't get derailed because of Mike. Its everybody else.
The question remains. Do you need a multimeter for model railroading?
Whatever other reason you would use it for, including building your own house after possibly felling your own trees and sawing them into boards by our own means, doesn't really matter. And neither does a wrong opinion about it.
- Douglas
Doughless The question remains. Do you need a multimeter for model railroading?
YES.
Overmod 7j43k Being before my time, what IS "four-wire branch construction"? In a four-wire setup, every fixture switch is double-pole, interrupting both the hot and neutral together and positively isolating whatever is 'downstream'.
7j43k Being before my time, what IS "four-wire branch construction"?
In a four-wire setup, every fixture switch is double-pole, interrupting both the hot and neutral together and positively isolating whatever is 'downstream'.
The problem with this is that I've worked on many buildings doing electrical work for the past 40 years. Many of them were built prior to 1937 (some still with active gas lighting lines). The one I am inside right now was 1914. I have never seen a double pole light switch, nor the wiring that would be necessary for it.
It is still acceptable to do wiring as you describe. I've done it once in awhile for a power circuit, usually because the neutral wire doesn't run through, so I have to connect them. An extra switch pole is a convenient place to do it. I think it MIGHT be required for some special cases--things like gas stations and such.
In a building, ALL neutrals are "in common".
IF the "new style" of wiring were installed properly, those people you describe COULD NOT get themselves electrocuted, because the live line was disconnected at the switch. There would be nothing there to do the job. It has been and still is required to put the switch in the hot line, not the neutral.
However. What I HAVE seen is a "switched neutral" in old wiring. This happened through incomptence or slovenliness. Color coding of wires mostly had not come in yet, so it was less than obvious whether the wire you were working on was meant to be hot or neutral.
Ed
Doughless Threads get derailed because people want to argue with Mike over something he said wrongly. No, they don't get derailed because of Mike. Its everybody else.
I do agree with you that it would be better to ignore Mike. It's been recommended to me, and I've tried as much as possible to go that route.
But sometimes he says things that are Wrong. Frequently, actually.
If we just let Mike say these things without correcting him, some poor beginner might believe him. He does it a lot, you know, so there would be a lot of wrong statements out there to stumble over. And don't forget, it all goes into internet history, and will be available for a very long time (as in those resurrected threads from 10 years ago that show up).
What do you propose, then?
Should we just let him blather on, mistakes and all? Essentially, ignore him? Then, of course, the mistakes will remain.
Or is there a way you suggest to correct the errors without having him continue to go on and on.
DoughlessThe question remains. Do you need a multimeter for model railroading?
That remains -- open and shut -- the point of any further meaningful commentary.
And no, you don't 'need' a multimeter to build a model railroad effectively. Did anyone actually say that? (EDIT: while I was typing, it appears someone did...)
PC101 Doughless The question remains. Do you need a multimeter for model railroading? YES.
A broad general statement is substantially correct more than incorrect if the underlying point prevails at least 51 % of the time.
I'd wager than 90% of homeowners have never had a reason to own a multimeter, so a broad statement that says they are not very useful would be more correct than not.
The trick is to understand when the writer is making a broad generalized statement to make a point. Usually its a point that plays a supportive role to the main point of his comment, (IIRC is about power packs) but lacks precision because its just an aside anyway.
If you're constantly applying an engineer's level of precision when reading text, all text equally, it might seem like that broad general statment is incorrect, when the problem rests with the reader not being able to back off of that engineer's level of precision when its called for.
And then we get arguments about ....nothing really.
That summarizes the thread.
Overmod, I don't always agree with you, but I do here. I respect Douglas, so in this case I decided not to correct him. But, you are right. The OP initially asked for suggestions for a "short course" on how to use multimeters, including those that he already owns.
I believe that Douglas is confusing this thread with the one in which the OP and his son took his father's "toy trains" to his LHS to determine if they were junk.
Someone on that thread asserted that every model railroader needs a multimeter to build and operate a layout.
7j43kHowever. What I HAVE seen is a "switched neutral" in old wiring. This happened through incomptence or slovenliness.
Switched neutral is a bonehead mistake, whether the cloth wire insulation retains the original 'white' and 'black' coding or it has been occluded by age and dirt. It is simply dumb: dumb to do, and dumb not to check for.
It is not quite as dumb when you find it in a lamp switch, in the days before mandatory polarized outlets where the 'switched' line had a roughly 50/50 chance of being plugged up to the neutral side of the outlet. But it would be double dumb to troubleshoot a lamp 'hot' without checking... or, indeed, connected to power at all, no matter what LSM says.
I have repeatedly encountered alarming voltage from neutral to ground in fixtures where the breaker is not only tripped but physically disconnected from the bus. So no one will ever convince me three-wire is preferable to full isolation as a default.
richhotrain Overmod, I don't always agree with you, but I do here. I respect Douglas, so in this case I decided not to correct him. But, you are right. The OP initially asked for suggestions for a "short course" on how to use multimeters, including those that he already owns. I believe that Douglas is confusing this thread with the one in which the OP and his son took his father's "toy trains" to his LHS to determine if they were junk. Someone on that thread asserted that every model railroader needs a multimeter to build and operate a layout. Rich
Using precision, yes, my comment may be seen as not related to this specific thread.
But being an imprecise big picture guy, the details of this particular thread are not relevant since the same OP is trying to diagnose what's wrong...if anything...with old equipment. This thread is the offspring of the other.
Both of which have the same tired arguments that populate this forum.
Precision is useful in carpentry, but the realities of carpentry is why they invented caulk.
Precision in mechanical and civil engeering are useful, even death preventative, but realities of engeering actual product is why engineers use the common phrase "when in doubt, make it stout".
Precision in writing or speaking would say that we should never use the word never, because there may be 10% of the time when the "never" is wrong. Yet people use it all the time.
When someone is making a point, think of a verbal conversation, and somewhere in the middle of it they generalize by using the word never, imagine of precision dictated that after the person is making their two paragraph point, the listener ingores the basic point and focuses on the word never somewhere in the middle of it, then gets into a long winded explanation of the 10% situation of why using the word never made the entire two paragraphs wrong.
That's a gotcha move on the part of the listener more than it is a sincere gripe. And the problem rests with the listener who couldn't get past the imprecision of a broadly applied term.
I actually think that lifting out that sentence, and redirecting the convo to imply how wrong the bigger point is, is very rude.
Too many gotcha responses emerging on this forum and not enough comprehension of the basic point. It gets annoying.
7j43k Overmod 7j43k Being before my time, what IS "four-wire branch construction"? In a four-wire setup, every fixture switch is double-pole, interrupting both the hot and neutral together and positively isolating whatever is 'downstream'. The problem with this is that I've worked on many buildings doing electrical work for the past 40 years. Many of them were built prior to 1937 (some still with active gas lighting lines). The one I am inside right now was 1914. I have never seen a double pole light switch, nor the wiring that would be necessary for it. It is still acceptable to do wiring as you describe. I've done it once in awhile for a power circuit, usually because the neutral wire doesn't run through, so I have to connect them. An extra switch pole is a convenient place to do it. I think it MIGHT be required for some special cases--things like gas stations and such. Three-wire has all the neutrals on the branch in common, and they don't even have to pass through the switchbox. Only the hot is switched. In a building, ALL neutrals are "in common". The logic (such as it was) was that people expecting the safety of four-wire might get themselves electrocuted doing fixture wiring with just the switch off (this being the era of fuses, not breakers) so -- rather than allowing safety for a little more $$$, they mandated the predictably-less-safe construction for everyone. IF the "new style" of wiring were installed properly, those people you describe COULD NOT get themselves electrocuted, because the live line was disconnected at the switch. There would be nothing there to do the job. It has been and still is required to put the switch in the hot line, not the neutral. However. What I HAVE seen is a "switched neutral" in old wiring. This happened through incomptence or slovenliness. Color coding of wires mostly had not come in yet, so it was less than obvious whether the wire you were working on was meant to be hot or neutral. Ed
Lots of knob and tube was wired with switched neutrals back in the early days.
Making more popcorn, and nothing else to add.
Sheldon
Overmod The house I grew up in was started in 1913, construction was held up during the War, and was finished in 1919. Every switch in the house was double-pole: a set of contacts for hot, and a set of contacts for neutral, in a porcelain 'chassis' with a brass actuating toggle. Every switch in the surviving original wiring of the University Cottage Club was pushbutton but likewise with contacts for both hot and neutral made and broken simultaneously. The main wiring in Soldier's Fortune (at least the main part of the house), Orlot, and Rokeby in the Hudson River Highlands all feature these switches. I was told repeatedly they were common practice in early 'gas replacement' light wiring.
The house I grew up in was started in 1913, construction was held up during the War, and was finished in 1919. Every switch in the house was double-pole: a set of contacts for hot, and a set of contacts for neutral, in a porcelain 'chassis' with a brass actuating toggle. Every switch in the surviving original wiring of the University Cottage Club was pushbutton but likewise with contacts for both hot and neutral made and broken simultaneously. The main wiring in Soldier's Fortune (at least the main part of the house), Orlot, and Rokeby in the Hudson River Highlands all feature these switches. I was told repeatedly they were common practice in early 'gas replacement' light wiring.
VERY interesting. May I ask was this conduit or knob-and-tube?
The 2017 NEC says in an exception to 404.2(B):
"A switch...shall be permitted to disconnect a grounded circuit conductor [the neutral] where all circuit conductors are disconnected simultaneously,..."
As you can see, the electrical code does not prohibit switching the neutral along with the hot using a two pole switch. A similar statement is in my oldest conveniently located code book for 1996 (380-2(b)).
If the above was added back in between 1937 and 1996, I cannot say.
I suspect the concept was not prohibited in this area. But I have not seen it. For knob-and-tube, it would be more expensive. And, presuming the installer did it correctly, no less safe than the double pole system.
Knob-and-tube wiring was not color coded until the end of its common use. I would say at least 90% of what I run into is all-black.
It is not quite as dumb when you find it in a lamp switch, in the days before mandatory polarized outlets where the 'switched' line had a roughly 50/50 chance of being plugged up to the neutral side of the outlet. But it would be double dumb to troubleshoot a lamp 'hot' without checking... or, indeed, connected to power at all, no matter what LSM says. I have repeatedly encountered alarming voltage from neutral to ground in fixtures where the breaker is not only tripped but physically disconnected from the bus. So no one will ever convince me three-wire is preferable to full isolation as a default.
So you are discovering a hot neutral. Repeatedly. Since that is impossible in a properly wired building, I suggest your building is not properly wired. The failure isn't a fault of the system, it is a fault of the installer who did not follow it.
We MIGHT discuss how something like this could happen with an improperly installed multi-wire circuit, but I think now is not the time.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Lots of knob and tube was wired with switched neutrals back in the early days. Making more popcorn, and nothing else to add. Sheldon
Yes, I see it now and then. It was done by an incompetent. Incompetent electricians weren't invented in the '70's, they only became more common.
I think it's time to put this one to bed, folks. Thank you to most of you for your participation.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.