hobo9941 I'm thinking a tender or dummy B unit would hold a sizeable capacitor.
I'm thinking a tender or dummy B unit would hold a sizeable capacitor.
Simon
gregc gregc KEEP ALIVE - Trademark Details suggests it is cancelled/expired my son who works at the U.S. Trademarks office said KEEP ALIVE was a registered trademark from 1994 to February 2016 for “automatic test equipment”. It was not renewed in 2016 and so it cancelled. Basically, the owner did not pay the fee so it’s gone.
gregc KEEP ALIVE - Trademark Details suggests it is cancelled/expired
my son who works at the U.S. Trademarks office said
You can use one per loco, and as many as you have loco's on your layout. Keep alive in one loco doesn't interfere with a keep alive in another one.
7j43kIt then does appear, with that much broader base meaning of the term, that it would be convenient to have a descriptive word or phrase for the device that keeps our locomotives going over dead spots.
As noted: there was the original MTH 'battery' that retained settings on equipment too cheap to use NVRAM.
Sound decoders need two things: they need to be kept from rebooting/restarting on momentary power loss, and they should not crackle, drop out, etc. going over momentary 'imperfections' (this used as a nonjudgmental term) or gaps.
Decoder keepalive that preserves state and 'computer' operation but not PCM drive output to the motor.
Decoder keepalive that supplements (or replaces) track-power input for both the decoder functions (presumably including all aspects of onboard sound) and for effective motor drive and control. I would note that a proper implementation here would use CV11 in a particular way, perhaps shutting down with different timeouts or keeping some functions alive (like sound or wireless communication) while hard or soft stopping motor function, etc.
LastspikemikeI have yet to experience a non sound DCC locomotive do this. None of my DC locomotives do this even if decoder equipped and when running in DC mode.
You've never had a non-sound locomotive stop due to dirty track? You must keep your track emaculate.
LastspikemikeI have experienced locomotives stalling on dirty track I.e refusing to start moving but a keepalive won't solve that problem as far as I know.
Actually, believe it or not, with the Lenz version of keep alive, "USP" (Uniterruptible Signal Processing), a locomotive can stop on dirty track and still start moving again. Apparently it uses the fact that dirty track acts as a capacitor (a capacitor is two conductors - wheel and rail, separated by an insulator - dirt) to allow a weak DCC signal kthrough to the decoder. They demonstrated it by stoping and reversing a locomotive on a paper towell.
Overmod 7j43k I see that a Keep Alive was claimed to have been first used commercially on February 26, 1993. Ed, when I was learning electronics in the early Seventies, 'keepalive' was a common generic term for what was then usually battery backup. I have a '59-'60 missile-technology 'handbook' that discusses some aspects of their use in 'extreme environments' (including those where capacitors, not chemical batteries, are necessary).
7j43k I see that a Keep Alive was claimed to have been first used commercially on February 26, 1993.
Ed, when I was learning electronics in the early Seventies, 'keepalive' was a common generic term for what was then usually battery backup. I have a '59-'60 missile-technology 'handbook' that discusses some aspects of their use in 'extreme environments' (including those where capacitors, not chemical batteries, are necessary).
And then came UPS (maybe THAT should be in quotes?).
Some clever semantic combination of capitalization, spacing, and perhaps punctuation might have allowed trademark registry. Perhaps the combination of preservation of erasable-memory content, decoder operation, and motor drive for model trains was deemed sufficiently novel. But don't go saying the term wasn't in common use far before 1993 in all the relevant individual technical contexts involved.
I think you have discovered that I am not much educated in the history of electronics.
But I think with your comment and Greg's, I can stop putting quotes around keep alive.
It then does appear, with that much broader base meaning of the term, that it would be convenient to have a descriptive word or phrase for the device that keeps our locomotives going over dead spots.
"I added a keep alive to my loco."
"Great. Was it the sound maintaining style or the movement maintaining style?"
Ed
Lastspikemike snjroy Lastspikemike The locomotive would keep moving even if the keepalive weren't there. Apart from short locomotives or steamer with left side at the front of the wheelbase and left side at the rear a keepalive is only there to stop the sound decoder dropping out. You don't need a keepalive on a DC locomotive or a DCC motor only equipped locomotive. The devices are to stop sound decoders dropping out. For non sound decoders the power storage is way in excess of anything bad track might require. Locomotives with flywheels will pass easily over track power interruptions that will cause a sound decoder to drop out, Just because a device does something else in addition to its main purpose doesn't mean that's why it's there. As for it being "by defintion" for locomotive power, not according to TCS: https://tcsdcc.com/keepalive and since TCS claims rights to the brand name "Keep-alive" what they say is by definition correct. Mike, there are keep alive decoders that are non-sound. And their purpose is to "kick in" and supply power to the loco (motor and lights) for a few seconds, allowing a locomotive to go over unpowered track (e.g., a section of dirty track or a long frog). With a regular decoder, the locomotive will stop if there is no power. It's pretty much instant and the flywheels don't help much, especially for steam locos. Momentum also does not help as it requires constant electrical power. Simon I have yet to experience a non sound DCC locomotive do this. None of my DC locomotives do this even if decoder equipped and when running in DC mode. I have experienced locomotives stalling on dirty track I.e refusing to start moving but a keepalive won't solve that problem as far as I know. Only track cleaning works if the locomotive has been stopped on dirty track. My basic point is that DCC with sound decoders are really annoying if the delivered track voltage drops below the level required to run the sound. A keepalive works in that situation. Loksound says their keepalives don't work in DC mode.
snjroy Lastspikemike The locomotive would keep moving even if the keepalive weren't there. Apart from short locomotives or steamer with left side at the front of the wheelbase and left side at the rear a keepalive is only there to stop the sound decoder dropping out. You don't need a keepalive on a DC locomotive or a DCC motor only equipped locomotive. The devices are to stop sound decoders dropping out. For non sound decoders the power storage is way in excess of anything bad track might require. Locomotives with flywheels will pass easily over track power interruptions that will cause a sound decoder to drop out, Just because a device does something else in addition to its main purpose doesn't mean that's why it's there. As for it being "by defintion" for locomotive power, not according to TCS: https://tcsdcc.com/keepalive and since TCS claims rights to the brand name "Keep-alive" what they say is by definition correct. Mike, there are keep alive decoders that are non-sound. And their purpose is to "kick in" and supply power to the loco (motor and lights) for a few seconds, allowing a locomotive to go over unpowered track (e.g., a section of dirty track or a long frog). With a regular decoder, the locomotive will stop if there is no power. It's pretty much instant and the flywheels don't help much, especially for steam locos. Momentum also does not help as it requires constant electrical power. Simon
Lastspikemike The locomotive would keep moving even if the keepalive weren't there. Apart from short locomotives or steamer with left side at the front of the wheelbase and left side at the rear a keepalive is only there to stop the sound decoder dropping out. You don't need a keepalive on a DC locomotive or a DCC motor only equipped locomotive. The devices are to stop sound decoders dropping out. For non sound decoders the power storage is way in excess of anything bad track might require. Locomotives with flywheels will pass easily over track power interruptions that will cause a sound decoder to drop out, Just because a device does something else in addition to its main purpose doesn't mean that's why it's there. As for it being "by defintion" for locomotive power, not according to TCS: https://tcsdcc.com/keepalive and since TCS claims rights to the brand name "Keep-alive" what they say is by definition correct.
The locomotive would keep moving even if the keepalive weren't there. Apart from short locomotives or steamer with left side at the front of the wheelbase and left side at the rear a keepalive is only there to stop the sound decoder dropping out. You don't need a keepalive on a DC locomotive or a DCC motor only equipped locomotive. The devices are to stop sound decoders dropping out. For non sound decoders the power storage is way in excess of anything bad track might require. Locomotives with flywheels will pass easily over track power interruptions that will cause a sound decoder to drop out,
Just because a device does something else in addition to its main purpose doesn't mean that's why it's there.
As for it being "by defintion" for locomotive power, not according to TCS:
https://tcsdcc.com/keepalive
and since TCS claims rights to the brand name "Keep-alive" what they say is by definition correct.
Mike, there are keep alive decoders that are non-sound. And their purpose is to "kick in" and supply power to the loco (motor and lights) for a few seconds, allowing a locomotive to go over unpowered track (e.g., a section of dirty track or a long frog). With a regular decoder, the locomotive will stop if there is no power. It's pretty much instant and the flywheels don't help much, especially for steam locos. Momentum also does not help as it requires constant electrical power.
I have yet to experience a non sound DCC locomotive do this. None of my DC locomotives do this even if decoder equipped and when running in DC mode. I have experienced locomotives stalling on dirty track I.e refusing to start moving but a keepalive won't solve that problem as far as I know. Only track cleaning works if the locomotive has been stopped on dirty track.
My basic point is that DCC with sound decoders are really annoying if the delivered track voltage drops below the level required to run the sound. A keepalive works in that situation.
Loksound says their keepalives don't work in DC mode.
https://tcsdcc.com/1464
7j43kI see that a Keep Alive was claimed to have been first used commercially on February 26, 1993.
gregcKEEP ALIVE - Trademark Details suggests it is cancelled/expired
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
I see that a Keep Alive was claimed to have been first used commercially on February 26, 1993.
Doesn't that seem a bit early for OUR Keep Alive?
Anyway, it appears some of us are turning Kleenex into kleenex. And then adding other uses for kleenex.
CSX Robert 7j43k ..."keep alive", which originally referred to Keep Alive, a product designed to keep DCC locomotives running through dead spots, has been expanded in this topic to keeping other things alive, like sound. Up until now, the sound application has not been called "keep alive". Now, apparently, it is... No, we did not expand the meaning in this topic. Keep alive has been commonly used that way for years.
7j43k ..."keep alive", which originally referred to Keep Alive, a product designed to keep DCC locomotives running through dead spots, has been expanded in this topic to keeping other things alive, like sound. Up until now, the sound application has not been called "keep alive". Now, apparently, it is...
No, we did not expand the meaning in this topic. Keep alive has been commonly used that way for years.
Oh. So it's just being continued here.
Do you have a suggestion for a generic term that COULD be used for a device that can keep a locomotive in motion across a dead spot (like a Keep Alive, or Power Pack)?
Or should we be in the position to have to explain each time what KIND of "keep alive" we are talking about?
Should we have asked rrebel which KIND of "keep alive" HE was talking about, or should he have known to volunteer that?
LastspikemikeI have experienced locomotives stalling on dirty track I.e refusing to start moving but a keepalive won't solve that problem as far as I know
of course the loco won't start if stopped. that's not what a keep alive is expected to do
but a keep alive may allow a loco to ride past dirty track before it drains the capacitor and stops or ride across an unpowered frog
rrebellTo make it simple a capacitor like Keep Alive can power some engines for two feet, so if that is the case, then what happens with more, can it go 10 feet or?
DCC CV11 controls the run-on so a locomotive doesn't just keep going and going. You could make a simple 'turnoff timer' that discriminates when keepalives are running without DC track power present and soft-shut off the cap after a certain time.
See gregc's calculations for how much longer you'll get sound+motion for a given 'upsize'.
KEEP ALIVE - Trademark Details suggests it is cancelled/expired
7j43k..."keep alive", which originally referred to Keep Alive, a product designed to keep DCC locomotives running through dead spots, has been expanded in this topic to keeping other things alive, like sound. Up until now, the sound application has not been called "keep alive". Now, apparently, it is...
CSX Robert Since those circuitis are commonly refered to as "keep alive" circuits, I feel that, unless you specify you are refering to TCS's definition, it is more confusing to say a "keep alive", by definition, is there to power the entire locomotive through a dead spot. I suspect most modelers don't even realize TCS has trademarked Keep-Alive.
Since those circuitis are commonly refered to as "keep alive" circuits, I feel that, unless you specify you are refering to TCS's definition, it is more confusing to say a "keep alive", by definition, is there to power the entire locomotive through a dead spot. I suspect most modelers don't even realize TCS has trademarked Keep-Alive.
So we have demonstrated here what happens when a trademarked term becomes generic.
"keep alive", which originally referred to Keep Alive, a product designed to keep DCC locomotives running through dead spots, has been expanded in this topic to keeping other things alive, like sound. Up until now, the sound application has not been called "keep alive". Now, apparently, it is.
Could we not continue to add to the list of "keep alives"? The Tesla battery on the side of my house? Yup. It's a keep alive, now. Hell, that pacemaker my buddy has in his chest is a keep alive. Literally. It gets his heart over those little DEAD spots.
That said, a Keep Alive (notice capital letters!) is specifically designed to keep a DCC locomotive going through a dead spot. For ME, a "keep alive" will do exactly the same thing. That is why I call it a "keep alive". Because it IS, but by a different manufacturer. Other things are not, because they don't do what a Keep Alive does.
I see no need to expand the definition to other designs, products, or concepts. It reeks of sloppy thinking.
Stealing the term Keep Alive and making it generic is bad enough. Redefining what it IS is worse.
PS:
Perhaps we could compromise, and reserve "keep alive" for the device that is added to a DCC board to get a locomotive through dead spots.
THEN we could use another common term for the speaker "keep alive". I suggest "power pack", as used by ESU. THAT could be the term for the device incorporated in sound boards to bridge only the sound past gaps. Sure. That's not what a Power Pack does, but who cares?
7j43k...That's why I put "keep alive" in quotes. Yes, I know there is a circuit in some sound decoders that helps keep the sound from dropping out. It is better not to call that "keep alive", as it tends to confuse people, including some on this topic. I'll note that Walthers makes a nice little SOUNDLESS switcher with a "keep alive" included. Ed
It is better not to call that "keep alive", as it tends to confuse people, including some on this topic.
I'll note that Walthers makes a nice little SOUNDLESS switcher with a "keep alive" included.
The company that makes Keep Alive has already lost it to common lanquage just as kleenex is now used for tissue. In fact Google is fast losing exclusive rights already as everyone I know says google it for go search the internet. In Googles case it may accually end up a benifit.
CSX Robert Lastspikemike The locomotive would keep moving even if the keepalive weren't there. Apart from short locomotives or steamer with left side at the front of the wheelbase and left side at the rear a keepalive is only there to stop the sound decoder dropping out. You don't need a keepalive on a DC locomotive or a DCC motor only equipped locomotive... The first commmercial "keep alive" was the Lenz USP, for Lenz decoders. Lenz doesn't even make sound decoders. 7j43k Who sells a "keep alive" that only powers the sound? Ed Digitrax sound decoders have a keep-alive circuit for the sound portion of the decoder. I realize that "Keep-Alive" is trademarked by TCS, but it is also a common phrase used to describe any such circuit for decoders.
Lastspikemike The locomotive would keep moving even if the keepalive weren't there. Apart from short locomotives or steamer with left side at the front of the wheelbase and left side at the rear a keepalive is only there to stop the sound decoder dropping out. You don't need a keepalive on a DC locomotive or a DCC motor only equipped locomotive...
The locomotive would keep moving even if the keepalive weren't there. Apart from short locomotives or steamer with left side at the front of the wheelbase and left side at the rear a keepalive is only there to stop the sound decoder dropping out. You don't need a keepalive on a DC locomotive or a DCC motor only equipped locomotive...
The first commmercial "keep alive" was the Lenz USP, for Lenz decoders. Lenz doesn't even make sound decoders.
7j43k Who sells a "keep alive" that only powers the sound? Ed
Digitrax sound decoders have a keep-alive circuit for the sound portion of the decoder. I realize that "Keep-Alive" is trademarked by TCS, but it is also a common phrase used to describe any such circuit for decoders.
That's why I put "keep alive" in quotes. Yes, I know there is a circuit in some sound decoders that helps keep the sound from dropping out.
SeeYou190that bus was FUN to drive. It was like a 56 passenger funny car. It would smoke the rears from a stop.
See what you can do about getting us in there. That's a whole generation of tech I likely know little about... and I'd like to see how it was done.
7j43kWho sells a "keep alive" that only powers the sound? Ed
CSX Robert Some keep alives only power the sound while others power the entire locomotive.
Some keep alives only power the sound while others power the entire locomotive.
Who sells a "keep alive" that only powers the sound?
rrebell See, I knew it would be complicated and above my pay grade.
See, I knew it would be complicated and above my pay grade.
Lucky you! You have experts like us to help you out! Some of us are even right. Sometimes.
Anyway, many/most sound decoders have a capacitor on them. It is NOT a "keep alive". It is there for sound purposes only. It will NOT help propel the locomotive.
A "keep alive", by definition, is there to power the entire locomotive through a dead spot.
That capacitor on the board is NOT.
Lastspikemike The current keepalives are to keep the sound decoder alive not the locomotive...
The current keepalives are to keep the sound decoder alive not the locomotive...
Doughless...Keep alives send current to the motor, keeping the motor rotating, therefore, the locomotive moving...
Lastspikemike... Onboard capacitor power storage raises the issue of separating out the DCC control signal such as LocoFi does, a feature I've advocated for elsewhere. If the control signal could be preserved as a separately powered transmission to the locomotive control board then adding more keepalive capacitors could usefully compensate for bad track continuity by supplementing flywheel momentum...
Onboard capacitor power storage raises the issue of separating out the DCC control signal such as LocoFi does, a feature I've advocated for elsewhere.
If the control signal could be preserved as a separately powered transmission to the locomotive control board then adding more keepalive capacitors could usefully compensate for bad track continuity by supplementing flywheel momentum...
Seperating out the DCC signal is not that hard and has already been done:
http://www.cvpusa.com/airwire_system.php
LastspikemikeThe current keepalives are to keep the sound decoder alive not the locomotive. The flywheels keep the locomotive moving. Adding more keepalives to keep the locomotive moving raises the topics of dead rail and locomotive control.
Keep alives send current to the motor, keeping the motor rotating, therefore, the locomotive moving.
If you run your KA loco, then shut off the DCC system, the loco will continue to run much farther than what the flywheels alone could carry it.
That's what happens with bad track or wheels, no electrical pickup for a spat, and the KA keeps the motor moving.
I think the advantage of capacitors in a KA application is that they can be "charged" very quickly "in circuit" with power from the rails. Batteries require much more time to achieve operational readiness and that would preclude needing powered rails.
- Douglas
OvermodWhy in hell would it do that?
Can't talk too much about it.
That bus was powered by a Ford V10 NZE gasoline fueled industrial engine that drove a stationary permanent field 400 volt DC generator, The engine had three speeds, 1800, 2400, and 4800 RPM.
There was a large electric motor that drove the rear axle. There was also a small 24 volt DC generator that ran all the bus electrics. The production vehicles using this drive (none were ever built) would not have had the 24 volt system.
To add to the complication, the Ford engine had a 12 volt starting and control system, and its own seperate low voltage components.
The Hybrid part was the capacitors in that box on the roof, and I was NEVER allowed in there. We had to get a field technician from the company in Arizona whenever the capacitor system had issues.
Anyway, how it was explained to me, was that when the capacitors discharged the current level was so high that it was basically a short circuit. I never saw the capacitors or relays, but there were dozens of 4/0 cables running into that box.
It was loud, and that bus was FUN to drive. It was like a 56 passenger funny car. It would smoke the rears from a stop.
Only three of this design were ever built, that is why the five million price tag. It is still on the LeeTran yard in Fort Myers. It has not run in over ten years. I am sure I could get us in if you want to see it.
It should be in a transportation museum.
-Kevin
Living the dream.