While we're involved with the idea of re-gearing, here's a link to some of the old NWSL reference material on gears and regearing:
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0250/4032/2669/files/Gears_1_2.pdf?263
The current NWSL Web site is a mess, but if you click the mystery-meat three little bars and then 'Old Catalog Pages' you can still find some of the old reference material.
As I said, in my case my NCE Power Pro DID have to have a booster to program those locos on the programming track. So your blanket statement that they weren't needed was incorrect.
For all I know, mine is the only case where that ever happened, and I'm just the lucky one. Lucky, in this case, that I could finally operate three shelf queens.
The booster has stayed there ever since. I thus have no way to know if it made any succeeding difference. Everything has programmed fine since.
Since I had three locos that suddenly worked, I was ahead on money, since that's three decoders I didn't have to replace. And there was "nothing" wrong with them.
As I said, I do not know if MY miracle cure is YOUR miracle cure.
Ed
I will admit I do not own any T55 locos, I do have other power hungry locos with sound and dcc installed and have never needed a booster. Broadway Limited suggests programming on the main for their locos, so I do. As far as Genesis, Intermountain, Walthers Mainline, Scaletrains and every Atlas and Kato engine I have that either has dcc or dcc/sound I have programmed on the programming track, no booster. While my PH Pro has been voltage adjusted internally, it can be turned up more. It currently runs at about 15-16 volts. Which works quite well for my needs. It can go to 18, but NCE does not recommend doing so.
The OP stated he was told his loco had an MRC decoder, which should not be a problem to program for even the PowerCab unless it happens to be a sound only decoder because they said the sounds work but it wont move.
If the cannot read cv msg is coming up, it is likely a bad decoder or not a motor decoder at all. I havent read if they tried it on dc power to see if it moves. The bottom line is, put in a different decoder and move on.
The other bottom line is, the programming track booster is not anything I have ever needed for any loco, even when Im using decoder pro from JMRI. Suggesting the OP get a programming track booster for one decoder they are having trouble with is kind of silly and wouldnt be cost effective compared to a replacement decoder, which some with built in speakers can be had for less than $40 on ebay. Whether these are any good is anyones guess, Ive seen them listed but never owned one.
CA may be weak in shear. Clean rhe inside of the cap and the mating surfaces of the tower carefully with solvent and wipe dry. If you haven't pinned the corner that isn't attached, drill through both pieces and make ready to insert a tight pin that doesn't foul the gears. Mix JB Weld carefully and apply to the 'clamping' surfaces on the cover -- and apply weight to the top of the clip so it really pushes down on the bearings at both ends of the worm. Let it set a full 24 hours.
But sleeve that last stupid gear and be sure it spins first.
If it still jams, then it's time for the fire sale.
Overmod Before you give up: what did you glue it with, and did you let it completely harden/set, and did you drill transversely where the broken tab is and put in a little wire shear pin? Is the cover stretching somehow to let the worm tip up, and then pulling down afterward? If you could make the drive run as it was by pushing down the cover with your finger, I can't imagine JB Weld plus a pin letting it push up. Is it lifting at another corner? Pin it there if it is. There is that issue of the worn hogged-out hole in the gear at the bottom needing to be sleeved -- I think I'd go ahead and kludge that at the same time, as it needs relatively little. Then with the drive in your hand and gears facing up with the tower cover off, you should have no trouble rolling the drivers backward and forward and seeing the gears spin correctly without trying to cock or jam. My guess is that the bottom one with the enlarged hole is trying to jam under power.
Before you give up: what did you glue it with, and did you let it completely harden/set, and did you drill transversely where the broken tab is and put in a little wire shear pin? Is the cover stretching somehow to let the worm tip up, and then pulling down afterward?
If you could make the drive run as it was by pushing down the cover with your finger, I can't imagine JB Weld plus a pin letting it push up. Is it lifting at another corner? Pin it there if it is.
There is that issue of the worn hogged-out hole in the gear at the bottom needing to be sleeved -- I think I'd go ahead and kludge that at the same time, as it needs relatively little. Then with the drive in your hand and gears facing up with the tower cover off, you should have no trouble rolling the drivers backward and forward and seeing the gears spin correctly without trying to cock or jam. My guess is that the bottom one with the enlarged hole is trying to jam under power.
Hello Overmod,
I used CA glue I waited till it set.
Like I have said before very very poor design, horribly built and falls apart!
I appreciate all your help, but anything that can save the Loco now is way beyond my knowledge and capacity.
I am not experienced enough to try and save it.
I have written the last chapter of this story, with much frustration, to say the least.
I managed to get eveything in its proper place, I even temporaliy glued the #121 worm cover as Overmod suggested.
Still the same result, the worm gear spins and pushes up.
So, game over, hopefully I can sell the Engine as is and have someone with a lot more experience try and fix it!!
I WILL NEVER BUY ATHEARN AGAIN!!!
I cannot believe that someone would actually pay US$500 for this piece of POORLY MADE CHINESE HUNK OF CRAP!!
Quality control does not exist in their greedy world, no matter what they produce.
Anyway, the end is here: ATHEARN GENESIS FEF-2 NORTHERN
R I P
My thanks to all who participated in trying to assist me.
PS: if anyone is interested in buying it, I will give you a good deal!
Hawks Rule Thanks for heads up Ed!
Thanks for heads up Ed!
They just let me in, and I ran the search. I didn't find anything, so your problem is open season, I think.
Good luck,
groups.io has a real working search engine.
Once you're a member, go to "messages". In the upper right is Search. Try entering something like:
Athearn AND "4-8-4"
just as I wrote it. I just entered that same thing in a different group, and it pulled things up just fine.
The "AND" must be capitalized. It means that whatever you're searching for must have both "words". I put 4-8-4 in quotes just to indicate it's a phrase, not several different things.
Since the whole point of the group is regear and repower, you don't have to enter that, also.
There's other neat search terms and methods you can use.
It's considered polite to attempt a search for solutions to your problem BEFORE asking for help.
Looks like a great group--think I'll join.
Overmod Note the common sense... if you don't mind the clunky appearance of the big die-cast gearbox... of motorizing the main driver to move the others via rods. Better still, in principle, for this kind of gearbox drive is to use "more of the boiler diameter" to get a large, multiple-thread worm at the desired tight pitch to use with spur gears -- see here for a famous example. I discover to my joy that the Repower and Regear groups.io group has successfully transitioned to Premium, with voluntary support so payment shouldn't be necessary -- you will likely find far more support and many more alternatives there on the subject of practical regearing of this locomotive. https://groups.io/g/RepowerAndRegear Don't let that stop you participating here!
Note the common sense... if you don't mind the clunky appearance of the big die-cast gearbox... of motorizing the main driver to move the others via rods.
Better still, in principle, for this kind of gearbox drive is to use "more of the boiler diameter" to get a large, multiple-thread worm at the desired tight pitch to use with spur gears -- see here for a famous example.
I discover to my joy that the Repower and Regear groups.io group has successfully transitioned to Premium, with voluntary support so payment shouldn't be necessary -- you will likely find far more support and many more alternatives there on the subject of practical regearing of this locomotive.
https://groups.io/g/RepowerAndRegear
Don't let that stop you participating here!
Thanks again for your input.
The website looks very promising!
I'll check it out!!
Better still, in principle, for this kind of gearbox drive is to use "more of the boiler diameter" to get a large, multiple-thread worm at the desired tight pitch to use with spur gears -- see here for a famous example:
https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/groupsioattachments/7389/32638142/20595/0?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJECNKOVMCCU3ATNQ&Expires=1621787606&Signature=beyhIY8ue%2BQu6QuN5e2g2djTh2o%3D&response-content-disposition=inline%3B+filename%3D%2220190729_123339.jpg%22
Here is another example!
This example of worm gear and motor working together looks a lot more durable and practical than Athearn's version!!
That sounds great, if I knew how to do that!
Hawks Rule Well, I'm a firm believer that if the gears were brass instead of plastic, they would be more durable! Also, the whole motor to-worm to-gear to-axle to-wheels set up, in my opinion is weak and the chain itself can easily break down, by one or more components not working.
I believe that it is time to jack up this junk yard escapee and drive a GP38 under it.
[/quote]
Hawks RuleWell, I'm a firm believer that if the gears were brass instead of plastic, they would be more durable! Also, the whole motor to-worm to-gear to-axle to-wheels set up, in my opinion is weak and the chain itself can easily break down, by one or more components not working.
santafejeffSorry to say Randy, youve got it backwords. The Power Pro NCE does NOT need a program track booster. However, the sonewhat wimpy PowerCAB might. Its only 3 amps
A: I think you have posted to an incorrect thread.
Edit: Never mind A: above. I went back to the beginning of this thread and see that this was where your response was directed. Somehow the thread morphed from an electrical issue to a resurection of junk issue.
B: If the Randy you are responding to is Randy Rinker, he is correct and you are incorrect. And while you may have had success with the decoders you have programmed, it seems that some of the new decoders do in fact need more power than provided by the PowerPro.
C: I believe that the PowerPro actually puts less power to the program track than does the PowerCab.
When I added a booster to the program track of my NCE Power Pro, I could suddenly program my three T55 diesels. I could not, up 'til then.
Sorry to say Randy, youve got it backwords. The Power Pro NCE does NOT need a program track booster. However, the sonewhat wimpy PowerCAB might. Its only 3 amps. I have been using a PH pro 5 amp system for close to 20 yrs, in fact, I have 2 of them, and Ive never needed a booster for the program track.
Cannot read CV msg may very well be the fact that what may look like a decoder is, in fact, not. Maybe the OP should try it on a dc track go see if they get any response.
If there is no decoder in the loco, putting it on a dcc track would cause 2 things: absolutely no response whatsoever, the other, it would make a buzzing noise like it has a direct short, i.e. no decoder.
As far as a bench tester goes, ESU makes a decoder tester but theyre about $65 or so. May be worth it if one has a lot of older decoders they dont if they are any good or not.
Is it also possible this is a sound only decoder and not a sound/motor control version?
I dont use MRC decoders so Im not 100% positive they make a sound only decoder.
Part of the concern here is that the gear tower is die-cast as part of the chassis, with the posts for the gears all integral. To use brass (or other metal) gears here would require high precision and careful lubrication, or perhaps fabricating the gears with a bearing sleeve suitable to run on the cast posts. I suspect there would be additional noise and perhaps wear.
If it were up to me I'd have designed the worm hold-down to be sprung heavily at the four corners of the 'cap' so that excessive force against it would push it up rather than break teeth or posts; you would simply unclip or unhook the springs to release the worm for servicing, and replace any spring that weakened with age. Note how easy (and nonprecise) replacing the attachment point for such a spring can be, should it happen to deform or break.
Given the desire to have an 'invisible' transmission from the boiler down to the chassis, it's hard to think of a better design-for-manufacturing approach than a train of small identical spur gears -- Delrin ones, if torque permits -- that can run on investment-cast posts. Using a vertical Cardan shaft would require some means of 90-degree shaft rotation, which cannot be done from a longitudinal worm on the locomotive centerline (where it logically is using the 'largest practical motor'); you would need a bevel gearbox. Then when you get to the driver you have the issue of the driven shaft being transverse and needing a crown-gear (or differential-style pinion and ring gear arrangement) to get the necessary driver rotation -- more bearings, more precise depthing of more expensive-to-make gears. The spur-gear train only involves one change of axis, and it does it at the worm, through a robust transfer.
Now, I have forgotten if you said which end of the wretched clip had the broken ear that wrecked its hold-down ability. You will glue a piece of brass sheet to the top of the clip with an 'ear' in that direction, with holes in its corners, clearing the line of the driveshaft. At the base of the gear tower you will drill a couple of small through-holes. Bend an offset (or solder a base, or something) on the end of two pieces of rod or wire (or make a square U with spaced 90-degree bends in one piece), extend this up through the holes in the chassis and the holes in the ear, and provide arrangements to hold that end of the cap down, ideally with spring pressure. You could also make a yoke between the ears on the clip and have a common pull rod with an eye at its upper end, through a centered hole in the chassis and a hold-down screw at the bottom.
Well, I'm a firm believer that if the gears were brass instead of plastic, they would be more durable!
Also, the whole motor to-worm to-gear to-axle to-wheels set up, in my opinion is weak and the chain itself can easily break down, by one or more components not working.
Last night, I saw a couple of youtube videos on servicing old 40 plus year old Rivarossi and Mantua steam engines.
Their motor to gear to wheel system is so much simpler and better.
Too bad Athearn could not have done the same with their models!
It does have to be said that he may have an issue with that bottom gear at some point -- it is likely now 'guiding' on the tips of its teeth, having worn or hogged its center pivot out dramatically, and there is just so long that tip lubrication in an open case like this will remain effective.
(We should pause and reflect here that he bought this locomotive as essentially "new and unused" from an estate seller. I don't think it even comprehensible that a locomotive could come to have a gear in that state without considerable, overloaded wear or sustained abuse. This would be a clear matter to contact eBay concierge about, if he in fact had obtained the locomotive there.)
Fortunately the solution involves nothing more than sleeving or bushing the bore in the gear. That might be little more than getting a piece of tubing whose ID fits the pin, and chucking in a drill and sanding/filing it down until it snugly fits the (enlarged) hole in the gear, then lightly JB Welding it in (and let it harden up in the gearcase where he can check runout or wobble before the adhesive sets).
The pivot is then a logical place to use the #106 grease.
mikeGTW Questions fo Hawks Rule you say the worm gear spins is it solid on the metal shaft? Also the part that broke off you fastened to the cover seems to be just a tad to high but hard to tell for sure from photos And I think the hole you drilled for the 125 gear is too low looking at the photo I copied one of the last photos and enlarged it and the 122 gear and the 125 gear don't look to be engaged the 125 and 128 both look low allmost hiting the gear box the 128 gear looks like the center is worn out and the 121 clip being broke does not help at all I'm not sure if it can be fastened by other means
Questions fo Hawks Rule you say the worm gear spins is it solid on the metal shaft?
Also the part that broke off you fastened to the cover seems to be just a tad to high but hard to tell for sure from photos
And I think the hole you drilled for the 125 gear is too low looking at the photo
I copied one of the last photos and enlarged it and the 122 gear and the 125 gear don't look to be engaged the 125 and 128 both look low allmost hiting the gear box the 128 gear looks like the center is worn out
and the 121 clip being broke does not help at all I'm not sure if it can be fastened by other means
Hello Mike,
Take another look at the enclosed photo gears #122 125 and 128 all turn somoothly, no binding.
Also, look at the worm gear cover next to the worm gear.
It is a crappy thin cheap plastic that wont stay in place and when the motor spins the worm gear, the gear moves up.
As Overmod has suggested, I use either some bonding or glue to keep it secure, or drill holes and insert pins.
Like I have mentioned before, overall this is a poor design in my opinion.
That little worm gear has to provide enough torque to rotate all three gears which are also trying to rotate the gear axle which is attached to the other wheels with rods to move the engine!
Imagine if you have to add 10-15 freight cars what kind of stress that would put on the worm gear and the other gears?
That is why, I was wondering if there would be another method of powering the wheels to turn.
" />
He says, if I understand correctly, that his problem with the 'worm spinning' is that it pushes up and out of contact with the driven gear entirely because the clip does not retain its position. He has repeatedly noted that the drive functions when he presses down on the clip to locate the worm.
He has also verified that the gears move smoothly both when the driven gear at the top of the tower is pushed, and when the gears are backdriven by pushing the chassis. To me that eliminates the likelihood of binding or seizing when driven by the worm, and indeed he reports no such thing.
I do suspect that the original damage to the clip is related to excessive force on the worm, whether by excessive backdriving force (e.g. a previous owner trying to push the chassis to make the locomotive move) or because of the broken pin. He has fixed any obvious damage, and his current difficulty is only that he cannot hold both ends of the worm 'down' against the top of the gear tower.
In my opinion it should not matter what method is used to hold the worm down, as correct depthing and lateral position are provided by the surfaces in the gear tower. This is not an exercise in escapement-level watchmaking precision.
The wiring is simple whatever you might want to do: adding to or shortening the two motor leads from the decoder is all that might be involved in either relocating or replacing the motor. The issue is getting drive to the wheels, and the 'more prototypical appearance' design of the chassis complicates any simple mechanical options.
I don't think there is anything even remotely as good an option as (reversibly) gluing down or clamping that clip, or designing a simple replacement for it out of better materials.
All that is really 'necessary' for a definitive fix of the crapola drive is to drill out the gearbox pins accurately and replace with phosphor bronze through both covers, as you've already done for one. I do not know if NWSL or a comparable source has made better-quality specific replacement gears to use, but you might ask to have them produced (as you can bet a LOT of purchasers will be having these issues!!!)
Of course there ought to be ways to 3D print that wretched crap clip out of proper material, or make one optimized 'out of the box' for better clamping. There probably already is...
It is my opinion that gears such as these cannot be reliably 3D-printed, even in laser-sintered metal, as the surface finish won't be good enough. But at the required load and perhaps with a little specialized break-in lapping I suspect that issue can be made nonsignificant.
The only other issue for these is going to be getting the drivers to hold proper relative quarter, and that's an easy matter for jigs and a couple of easily-made fixtures if that should ever rear its head.
Overmod,
Your suggestions sound good, but require a lot of work and know how.
I was thinking more along the lines of how some old Mantua, Tyco and Rivarossi steam engines were wired, more simple.
Of course, in the 'lots of work but makes it a piece of jewelry' department, you could adapt the method in one of the greatest of all MR articles, I believe from 1970, which used a relatively huge coreless motor driving a gearbox and a Delrin chain to a sprocket connecting to the driver axles. Among the wonders of this was the ability... on the DC control of that era... to creep the locomotive slower than a minute hand moves on a watch; I'm sure with a little careful choice of gears you could adapt this to work nicely with your existing motor and decoder BEMF tables to get any desired smooth speed range. The chain would run in the space currently occupied by the crappy-gear tower.
Their reason for the weird arrangement is, paradoxically, to give a more 'prototypical' fine appearance to the locomotive, of the sort achievable only with tender drive. (Which, I might add, might be the "best" short-term way to get this locomotive running -- get one of the auxiliary tenders used for excursions and motorize its trucks... )
The sturdy, time-honored drive is to put a large driven gear on one of the driver axles, and mount the motor at an angle with the worm on the end of an elongated driveshaft so it bears on that gear. The chassis might have to be milled (or slotted by repeated drill-press drilling) to allow that gear to clear.
You might also mount a motor vertically, with a worm engaging the last crappy gear on the rear driver axle.
At this point I might just run an appropriate diesel as a 'helper', hook up the motor outputs to a dummy load, and run the locomotive sound-only while deciding options.
As I recall, at least a couple here are familiar with the 'other' kind of tender drive, where instead of motoring the tender wheels, a large motor in the tender drives a wire driveshaft or 'fake stoker worm' on a coal-fired engine or whatever, with a simple worm on the end in brackets as needed.