I recently bought some new Life-Like Proto 2000 locomotives, both E6A and E7A.
They are DCC Ready, so instead of installing basic non-sound decoders, I want to install sound decoders.
I am hoping that anyone who has installed sound decoders in these models will reply to this thread with information on brand of decoder, type of speaker, and whether there is enough space under the shell to add a sound decoder and speaker(s) without having to cut away any metal on the chassis.
Thanks in advance for your comments and recommendations.
Rich
Alton Junction
Since there is a ton of room inside these, it's not terribly diffcult. TCS naturally has pictures but any decoder will install the same way. I'd use a Loksound, and probably instead of the KA I'd put a second speaker in the front space, a big heavy loco like that should not need keep alives.
https://tcsdcc.com/installation/ho-scale/1392
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I have two E6As where I installed LokSound Select (shrink wrapped) decoders. One was QSI DCC/sound, the other DC. I like the LokSounds in general, and this sound file as it features dual prime mover sound. I don't know if others offer that. The newer LokSound V5 I presume is similar, with some added features. Note that it comes in different forms...I like the shrink wrap versions and hard wire them.
These TCS non-sound conversion installs show the difference in the internals (weight, etc.) for E6 & E7:
E6: https://tcsdcc.com/installation/ho-scale/1388
E7: https://tcsdcc.com/installation/ho-scale/1367
For my DCC E6 I left the original speakers in place but for the DC version I added dual 1.1" HiBass speakers w/enclosures at the rear, which fit within the height available above the weight. I did a similar setup in LL PAs and can recommend the setup. In LL Erie Builts, I tried quad micro 13x18mm speakers and that worked well also. Here is my E6 with dual 1.1" HiBass speakers (from Tonys Trains at the time):
IMG_4784 by Paul Ahrens, on Flickr
The HiBass speakers are 8 ohm. The LokSound decoder handles 4 - 16 ohm, so ok with dual speakers in series (16 ohm) or parallel (4 ohm, preferred). If another decoder, check the speaker impedance requirements.
To demo the speakers, I do not have a video of the E6s, but here is a LL PA video that includes the dual HiBass speakers (with the PA sounds):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pesFQ2AUBQ
On the specific speakers, there are several available, but I don't know which one performs best. You can see in my photo that mine are marked QSI. Tonys Trains current offering is "TDS". Railmaster offers a similar one, but they may not be identical. It might be worth a call to Tonys to get insight on any quality differences that are significant.
https://tonystrains.com/product/tds-high-bass-28mm-1-10-x-0-44-enclosed-speaker
http://railmasterhobbies.com/railmaster_hobbies_speakers.html
I did not find it necessary to add Keep Alive / Current Keeper type capacitors to any of my LL 6-axle diesels.
EDIT: Rich, it occurs to me to suggest considering replacing the axle gears. While gear cracking may be more common on the LL 4-axle locos, it can occur on the 6-axle cab units. It did for me. The E units do not have the same number of teeth as the often used Athearn gears for the Geeps. These Walthers wheelsets are correct.
https://www.walthers.com/replacement-geared-diesel-wheelsets-fits-early-proto-2000-r-e6-7-8-9-pkg-3
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
rrinker Since there is a ton of room inside these, it's not terribly diffcult. TCS naturally has pictures but any decoder will install the same way. I'd use a Loksound, and probably instead of the KA I'd put a second speaker in the front space, a big heavy loco like that should not need keep alives. https://tcsdcc.com/installation/ho-scale/1392 --Randy
peahrens I have two E6As where I installed LokSound Select (shrink wrapped) decoders. One was QSI DCC/sound, the other DC. I like the LokSounds in general, and this sound file as it features dual prime mover sound. I don't know if others offer that. The newer LokSound V5 I presume is similar, with some added features. Note that it comes in different forms...I like the shrink wrap versions and hard wire them. EDIT: Rich, it occurs to me to suggest considering replacing the axle gears. While gear cracking may be more common on the LL 4-axle locos, it can occur on the 6-axle cab units. It did for me. The E units do not have the same number of teeth as the often used Athearn gears for the Geeps. These Walthers wheelsets are correct. https://www.walthers.com/replacement-geared-diesel-wheelsets-fits-early-proto-2000-r-e6-7-8-9-pkg-3
Decoders have gone way up in price ooover the past couple of years. If you get a wired decoooder, you can get those foor under $100, and skip the $50 for the motherboard plus whatever the price of the keep alive is. Yet another reason I tend to hard wire decoders. I know the locos I bought for my layout will be used, and not converted back to DC, so no point putting all sorts of sockets in. With a speaker it would be around $100 or so, depending on where you buy the decoder.
Something ESU has is a CV to set the prime mover to be out of sync, so when you have 3 units consisted they don;t just all run perfectly in step and sound liek one loco, each one will be a little out of sync with the other two and you will hear 3 distinct prime movers (actually, I think they have offsets on the duak prime mover sounds fo E units, so it would sound like 6.)
Randy, thanks for that additional information. I haven't bought or installed a decoder for at least a few years, so I am out of touch when it comes to the pricing of sound decoders. I just kinda cringe at the thought of spending $600 on four sound decoders. If anything, I would have thought that those prices would have come down, not up.
richhotrain Randy, thanks for that additional information. I haven't bought or installed a decoder for at least a few years, so I am out of touch when it comes to the pricing of sound decoders. I just kinda cringe at the thought of spending $600 on four sound decoders. If anything, I would have thought that those prices would have come down, not up. Rich
Thought the same thing Rich!
I want to convert 5 DC locos to DCC. After looking at prices, that's not happening anytime soon.
Why DID the price go up instead of down like most electronics?
Gary
gdelmoroWhy DID the price go up instead of down like most electronics?
Decoders are more capable than they used to be. Whether most of us really need those capabilities is a serious question.
Unlike smart phones, tablets and ear buds, not everyone needs a decoder so it is a still small market relative to other electronics.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Also keep in mind there is a hefty margin built in to cell phones and tablets - and phones haven't really come down in price, they just offer lower price models with fewer features than the flagship models (I'm sorry, but a 108 megapixel camera in a cell phone is just STUPID anyway. But the average consumer sees 108 as greater than say 48 and flocks to it. Never mind that the picture quality, especially under less than ideal conditions, is actually worse).
There is also the 'closeout factor' - when a new decoder appears that replaces an older one, there are still plenty of the older ones in stock, and they often get a reduced price until they sell out, making it look like the new ones are a much bigger jump than they really are.
There's also labor costs - TCS, NCE, and Digitrax at least are all made in the USA. Loksound 5's are selling at most places for about $90, which is about the same price the v4's were. They no longer have the limited feature Select, the v5 line is only divided into the multi-protocol version and the DCC only version. Unless you're running a Marklin Central Station, there's no need for the multi-protocol version.
OK, I don't want to derail my own thread by getting into a pricing discussion versus my intial question about choosing and installing a sound decoder. I raised the issue of price simply to point out that I was not about to spend $576 on four sound decoders when the four locos in question would be assigned in pairs to two consists. Instead, I pointed out that it would be a lot cheaper to install a sound decoder just in each lead loco and non-sound decoders in the other two locos.
But back to the issue of price. When I was mostly installing my own decoders a few years back, I thought about price in terms of $30 or so for a non-sound decoder and $100 or so for a sound decoder. That's why I was so surprised to see that a TCS sound decoder goes for $144.
I put TCS wow sound in two of mine, with speaker and keep alive. Its a hardwire job because you need to toss the board to get it to all fit in.
The decoder itself carries a list price of $100. It's the motherboard and all the other extras that jack up the total cost. You could use the hard wired one that lists for $110 but means you don't need the $50 list motherboard, so a net savings.
$30 still gets a decent motor only decoder. Back in the day I was paying about $12, the NCE D13SRJ decoders were $119.99 retail for a 10 pack. They are discontinued, the lowest price I can find on the D13J replacement is $163 for a 10 pack.
What about my idea of only adding sound to the lead loco in each consist? That idea would save money. Wouldn't the sounds from one decoder be adequate?
I just re-read this entire thread to get a better idea of the suggestions and recommendations. The two recommended sound decoders are TCS WOW and LokSound. I will have to decide between those two. Interestingly, of all the sound equipped locos that I own, they are all QSI and Tsunami, all factory equpped.
Tony's Trains has an interesting article comparing sound decoders which includes Soundtraxx Tsunami, QSI Titan, Digitrax Sound FX, ESU LokSound, and TCS WOW.
Rich,
For diesel: TCS and Loksound are both excellent choices. Both offer very good sound, as well as exceptional motor-control. (More important to me than sound.) I have both decoders in my roster and have been very pleased with their performance.
Personally, I would go the sound decoder/motor-only decoder for your A-B units and keep it the same brand. That way the CV setup and performance should be the same for both decoders and you could program them to the same address. And the sound should also be quite sufficient for both units.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
richhotrain What about my idea of only adding sound to the lead loco in each consist? That idea would save money. Wouldn't the sounds from one decoder be adequate? Rich
For some definitions of 'adequate'. Sure, it sounds OK, my usual club consist is a pair of GP7s with motor only decoders and a Trainmaster which is an Atlas factory equipped with QSI. But for all their flaws, there's something to be said about the AB MTH FAs that have a decoder in both units running together, or running my FT A with Loksound coupled to the B unit I put a big speaker in (Stewart - the dummies had the power pickups and a metal chassis with just the sides that normally surround the motor cut down, so I put in the biggest speaker I could fit).
No one says you have to put decoders in all 4 at the same time, but for a 4 unit consist - maybe start with 2 decoders. Add sound to the other two later. The effect of multiple sound decoders in consist is like standing trackside as you hear each loco rumble by. A dead one shut down really stands out.
richhotrain I just re-read this entire thread to get a better idea of the suggestions and recommendations. The two recommended sound decoders are TCS WOW and LokSound. I will have to decide between those two. Interestingly, of all the sound equipped locos that I own, they are all QSI and Tsunami, all factory equpped. Tony's Trains has an interesting article comparing sound decoders which includes Soundtraxx Tsunami, QSI Titan, Digitrax Sound FX, ESU LokSound, and TCS WOW. Rich
If you mean this: https://tonystrains.com/news/sound-decoder-comparison/
It's 6 years old and the 'chart' greatly simplifies things. QSI is as much gone as anything, Tony's doesn't sell them any more, and the prices are not up to date. Also seem to refelect the cheapest of the options, which is almost always going to be the 21 pin versions of the decoders, simply because those can be completely assemebled using an automated system. Deocders with wires almost certainly require hand soldering of the wires. Added cost up front, but you also then doon;t need an expensive motherboard. You also don;t need to use the TCS motherboard with the WOWSound, there is the Nix Trains motherboard, the Decooder Buddy. Single units are only $16.
In responses to Tom's and Randy's recent comments regarding consists, I should note that all four locos in question are A units, two E6As and two E7As. I plan to run the two E6As in one consist and the two E7As in a separate consist. I have no plans to run all four in a single consist.
rrinker If you mean this: https://tonystrains.com/news/sound-decoder-comparison/ It's 6 years old and the 'chart' greatly simplifies things.
It's 6 years old and the 'chart' greatly simplifies things.