Why is this becoming a theme in my life? :)
Heres the deal. HO Westside GS-4 brass Daylight. Completely rebuilt with stock gearing but with Athearn Genesis motor and Loksound DCC setup. Runs great actually.....sort of.
i've finally pieced together the entire original consist passenger set from BLI and they look even better than the loco! But they are heavy. And there are 16 cars in the original consist.
The problem is the 4-8-4 won't come close to pulling them. I'm assuming is mainly due to lack of traction. The gearing in the loco has it at a top speed of 55mph. The original was capable of 100mph. So as much as I'd like it faster, I'd be happy if it would just pull the consist at 55mph. Better than nothing. So my question is this. Where can I get more traction? The loco has lots of lead and as stated is brass, so it's heavy. But none of the drivers are traction type wheels. I don't think amperage is a problem because it will spin the drivers, but just can't get the whole chain moving.
Granted the test done today was somewhat on a 34" curve, which I'm sure is not helping but it was no where close to being able to yank the cars. I used some small wiring for the DCC stuff along with the motor wires. I think if amperage was being choked down by the wires they would be getting hot or there would be other signs. power doesn't seem to be the issue here.
Am I completly delusional to think this loco could or will ever be able to pull the original consist?
Mike
Do the wheelse spin, or does it stall with the wheels not turning? If the wheels slip, then extra weight could be added to improve traction safely. If it stalls, then you are overloading the motor and adding more weight won;t help, and you will probbaly burn up the motor.
MR reviewed in October 81 and rated the drawbar pull (in a straight line) at 60 average freight cars. They didn't 'convert' to passenger cars back then, but 16 heavy cars on a curve is probably more than the 4.3 ounces of drawpar pull they recorded.
Other things of note are that on anything less than a 32" radius curve, the pilot wheels short out against the frame, and it's not so much the weight as it is the balance - the review said it was a bit tail heavy, so if the drivers slip, the solution may be to adjust some weight forward rather than adding more.
They also noted the 55 SMPH top speed, but noted that while the prototype was capable of more, on runs through the mountain areas it probably didn't go much faster than 55 anyway.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
How about a pair of these under the baggage car?
https://nwsl.com/collections/stanton-drives?_=pf&pf_t_gauge=Gauge%3A%20HO
Good Luck, Ed
Randy,
As always you are a wealth of information!
There is no stall. And I've noticed also that it was a bit tail heavy. But I think they lead weight is as far forward in the nose as I can get it. I'll double check though. In this case a few mm might make a huge difference.
I'm definitely ok with the 55mph speed since that means more torque than rpm. And I know the Athearn Genesis motors are strong just from my other locomotives. Looks like traction is definitely going to be the factor here.
I wonder if roughing up the drive wheels with some fine sand paper would help? Not to extreme measures but just enough to helps with grip?
Just trying to think outside the box.....
My layout will be set up for 12 car freight trains maximum, so pulling power is not a concern of mine usually.
However, when it comes to passenger trains, brass steamers leave me feeling sad.
My Sunset light USRA 4-6-2 will barely pull a five car mail train.
My Sunset heavy USRA 4-8-2 will not pull eight Rivarossi heavyweights with lighting. This is with the boiler stuffed full of lead wool and sheet lead inside the cab roof.
My Athearn PA-1s will simply walk away with the eight heavyweights with not so much as a grump.
I know you don't want to hear this, but your GS-4 is probably not up to the task. Ed's idea of powering the baggage car might be the only thing that works.
5150WS6I wonder if roughing up the drive wheels with some fine sand paper would help? Not to extreme measures but just enough to helps with grip?
That sounds like a terrible idea. Those drivers need to be perfect, both electrically and mechanically.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Ed,
Good idea but man, between the big motor in the loco and all the lights in the cars this trains is already pulling some amp! Might have to keep this as a plan b though!
Thanks!
Kevin,
I have a sinking suspicion that you're right. My dad used to rave about brass in the 70's and it's been nothing but a pain for me. Might just have to keep the brass on the shelf and look at a more modern 4-8-4. Hope they might work better.
And by roughing up the wheels, I meant doing it very precisely like in a lathe ot something. And by roughing up I mean make them dull. The wheels on my 4-8-4 are like a mirror. But on all my modern locos from Kato, Athearn and Scaletrains.....the wheelsets are dull....still smooth but just not mirror finish.
May I suggest traction tires on one driver wheel on each side. That plus the extra weight should add a lot of tractive effort.
Just as an aside. My N scale U50B locomotives are one solid chunk of metal with the motor inside. They will pull a 14 ounce train up a 2.93 percent grade at half throttle like they are not pulling any cars. I attribute this to the weight. Have you considered melting some lead to fit inside the shell, such as a piece to fit in the nose and thin sheets to fit to the top of the boiler?
Caldreamer
Caldreamer,
Read some mixed reviews on adding traction tires. I'll look some more there.
And the Westside model actually came with the entire nose/boiler section filled with a solid chunk of lead. So it's actually about as full as it's going to get of weight. Might be able to shove it forward a little bit but.....not a ton.
You could try this: http://www.bullfrogsnot.com/
It's a pain to apply though and will wear out eventually. Joe
Mel,
I'll have to get a pull gauge to see what I'm up against. The cars are heavy and also don't roll as smoothly as I'd like so maybe I'll start with the lithium grease and see if I can't free up the wheelsets a bit. I know with the wipers on the trucks they never will be butter smooth but maybe I can improve them a bit.
Thanks for the ideas!
If the locomotive is unbalanced (back-heavy) and there's no room to add weight on the front end, you'll get better results removing some of the weight from the rear. Optimum performance of a model steam locomotive at any weight is when the weight is balanced at the mid-point of the drivers' wheelbase.
As for roughening the drivers' tires, you're unlikely to gain any more traction, but it will be very likely that electrical pick-up will suffer.
The Athearn Genesis Mikados were very smooth runners, but had trouble pulling their shadow because they were severely back-heavy. I managed to stuff an additional 5 ounces into each of mine, balanced at the mid-point of the drivers' wheelbase.A pair of them can now handle a 12 car train of hoppers (with "live" loads), along with a caboose, up the 2.8% to the upper level of my layout. That climb is laid out on two horseshoe-type curves and several other curves over a distance of 45'.
The trailing train weighs 100 ounces, and while one of the locos can't handle the train alone on that grade, I learned that a loco that's not powerful enough needs, just like the real ones, another locomotive to help out.
You now have a very good excuse to buy another locomotive - you need it!
Wayne
Also check the springing on the pilot and trailing truck(between the truck and the frame), if they have stiff springs they can reduce the "weight on drivers".
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Couple of things. Always, ALWAYS the loco should slip if held back, not stall. Think of it as a 'safety valve' for the motor and electronics. So anything that makes it never slip no matter how you hold it back is not a good idea. If it can still slip when held back - it's no guarantee, but it's a lot less likely that the train will get stuck somewhere unseen and let all the magic smoke out. If you do decide to give the Bullfrog Snot a try, do one full axle, both sides, so the loco doesn't skeww under load. If it still can slip if you hold it by the tender, you're good.
Rough wheels - bad news for electrical pickup. Old AThearn BB locos with the sintered iron wheels pulled really well. But turn out the lights and you could see the little sparks as they rolled along. The NWSL replacement wheels made them capable of much slower running without stalling, but did reduce traction. Still, I always felt it was a decent tradeoff, as I was never going ot have a layout so big that I could load a single unit to its maximum. I did experiment once with an S12 I had, fitted with the Ernst slow speed gears, so full throttle it ran maybe 20MPH. Even with NWSL wheels it had decent pulling power with that gear reduction, but at the club I belongs to at the time, I decoded to go for broke. I lined the entire inside of the shell with sheet lead (which also had the effect of making it super quiet) and then stacked as much weight on top, between the shell and the railings, and just stacked on top, and on the steepest grade on the layout I could start a train most locos couldn't pull on the level. At least until the loosely stacked weights started falling off. There's no way I could have actually added that much weight to the loco and kept it internal, even enough depleted urianium wouldn't have fit. But with just the hidden sheets inside, it still pulled way more than that little loco ever should have, and with the smooth wheels it never had pickup issues.
I have but one brass loco. It still needs some work to get it fully operational, and the paint will need touching up. It doesn't run as well as my Atlas models of the same loco, but it's not horrible. Looks pretty nice (because the previous owner installed or had installed additional detail parts when it was painted), and I got it for a steal, but I'm in no rush to get more brass power.
5150WS6 Mel, I'll have to get a pull gauge to see what I'm up against. The cars are heavy and also don't roll as smoothly as I'd like so maybe I'll start with the lithium grease and see if I can't free up the wheelsets a bit. I know with the wipers on the trucks they never will be butter smooth but maybe I can improve them a bit. Thanks for the ideas! Mike
Thanks Mel, Was looking at those and I'll give that one a closer look!
Wayne,
Hahahaha, I'm going to refer you over to my wife so you can tell her I need more locos! LOL!
The nice part about my layouts is no grades. I tried to keep things simple and since I use a wheelchair to get around, adding levels and things just isn't that easy for me. So I have no grades to pull. But, who couldn't use a few more SD40T-2's for some extra help! :)
Ok, I will make sure that there is always slippage. So far that hasn't been an issue for sure. Last thing I want to do is smoke a motor or Loksound board.
I'm definitely cured on ever getting anymore brass. This will be my only and last one. I'm curious as to how the performance of the other 4-8-4's are out there. Like the Bachmann for instance. Not sure it's even worth spending the money on something like that as I'd be in the exact same boat as here.
I will adjust the weight as well as lube up the passenger cars to see if I can free them up some. I'll hold off on the snot for now. Use that as a last resort. I have struggled with the front 4 of the loco. I've run them without spring and with. Seems like they do better with some spring but not a lot. I spent about 2 hours yesterday just trying to get the stupid loco to make one loop around our new 10x16 layout without the front wheels coming off. I think I managed to get 2 loops without issue. At one point I had a pretty heavy spring and it was taking weight off the drivers so I fixed that. Honestly I think the front wheels would benefit more with weight on them vs sprung weight. Might try to mount some weight directly to them to see what that does. And moving the weight forward a bit more on the loco to see if there's any change. Mike
This topic reminds me of an old Model Railroader review of the Oriental Ltd brass California Zephy passenger train. The entire set, don't recall if it was 11 or 12 cars, was heavy and the article mentioned it would be difficult to pull and suggested powering the baggage car trucks to add tractive effort.
Sixteen passenger cars is a rather long passenger train. It will be interesting to see how this pans out.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Agree. Hoping it turns out well. It's pretty meaty to say the least when it comes to weight. I think the cars with full interiors, people, lighting and all that adds to the weight of course. Also the wipers on all the wheelsets doesn't help either. Hopefully I can make things a little more slippery and make some adjustments to the loco. :)
Mel
Hmmm. I'm tempted to pull the trigger on one but not sure it would get the job done any better. Think I'll hold off and see if I can get this one to work. I'll have to measure and record my drawbar pulls before and after adjustments to try to maximize what I'm doing. What a pain. I'm supposed to be enjoying seeing it steam around not have it in an out of the shop more than anything else! LOL!
I, too, would recommend trying Bullfrog Snot, probably on the rearmost pair of drivers since that seems to be where the weight distribution would do the most good.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I am definitely going to keep that as an option. I just hate having to reapply crap everytime I want to run the loco. I'd rather just try to exhaust every other option and save that for a Bullfrog snot vs dumpster option for the loco! LOL!Have you used it before?
I'm also going to use some Corrosion X I have for the wipers. I'm thinking if I lube the wipers up, as well as the wheelsets, I'm hoping that will make some difference. I have used the Corrosion X on RC boats for years to keep water away from the electronics. It serves as a dielectric as well so it should help with friction but also keep the connection good for the lights in the cars.
No, I've never used Bullfrog Snot. Perhaps someone who has can enlighten both of us. I suggested it mostly as a test, to see if traction tires might actually help. It is much easier to test than trying to retrofit traction tires.
I was also wondering about passenger car illumination. If it is old incandescents, you're using a lot of power just for the lighting. Replacement with a battery system would allow you to lose the power wipers, maybe change out the trucks for something more efficient, and fix the problem by improving rolling resistance to lessen the load. I have a string of old hopper cars. With their old plastic wheels, I could not pull the whole string, but when I upgraded to metal wheels it was a piece of cake.
Hello All,
5150WS6i've (SIC) finally pieced together the entire original consist passenger set from BLI and they look even better than the loco! But they are heavy. And there are 16 cars in the original consist.
Just a thought...
Rather than trying to get more pulling power out of the locomotive have you considered lowering the drag of the cars?
Not knowing the OEM type of wheelsets on the cars, are they plastic or metal?
How about the side frames of the trucks- -plastic or metal?
If the OEM wheelsets are plastic you might try replacing them with metal ones.
Recently I have been replacing my plastic wheelsets with Intermountain metal ones.
Many prototypical passenger cars used 36-inch wheels for the added comfort of a larger diameter.
Intermountain offers metal wheelsets in 28-, 33-. 36- and 38-inch scale sizes in HO. They also offer a ball-bearing type that might reduce drag even further.
If the trucks are plastic might I recommend the truck tuner from Micro-Mark.
This tool is designed for plastic trucks but might also work on deburring metal trucks.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
riogrande5761Sixteen passenger cars is a rather long passenger train. It will be interesting to see how this pans out.
I was thinking the same thing. The whole train with locomotive will be about 35 feet long. That would require a massive layout. I think this is well beyound the capability of a single 4-8-4.
Even if you do get it to pull, that much weight would be a tremendous stress on the gear train of the locomotive.