Repowering old brass

[RR_Mel]

The larger cup is probably better, I’ve broken a few of the smaller ball assemblies over the years because of the higher powered motors.

 

Just yesterday I was rewiring a Rivarossi Cab Forward with a Faulhaber 2224RS motor and stalled the driver wheels and snapped a ball joint.

 

 

 

Mel

 

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

[mikeGTW]

Mel I ended up ordering the 492-6 it is 2mm to 2mm but it has a 1 1/2 inch long drive shaft with it also the cups are roughly twice the size as the ones in the 489-6 kit far easier to hold on to and drill with the #43 drill to fit on the athearn worm The 491-6 works but the 2.4 mm cup is not a press fit on the worm still waiting for my motors to get here

[mikeGTW]

Mel  I ordered two of each the 489-6 and 491-6  so I can see what I can do  

I'm sure both will work just which one is "easier"

Also ordered 10 of those 280SA motors  from what you did they look very promising

I have a few of the old Mantua steamers   though about using one of the SF266 motors but needs major surjury on them  still might try it

Thanks Mike

[RR_Mel]

This is with the Athearn flywheels sleeved with 3mm K&S Brass tubing.  It becomes a drop in replacement.

 

 

 

Both are the same length so the original Athearn drive lines will work.

 

 

 

Mel

 

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

 

[RR_Mel]

I only stock the NWSL 489-6 (2mm).  I drill them out with a #43 drill bit (2.26mm) the Athearn worm has a 2.3mm shaft.  With the #43 drill bit the universal cup is still a press fit.

 

I normally use a very small dob of super glue as a lube to slip the cup on the worm shaft.

 

 

EDIT:

 

Make sure the shaft doesn’t go in the cup past the bottom of the cup or it will interfere with the ball joint.

 

 

Mel

 

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

[mikeGTW]

Mel  looks good to me   I ordered a few of the 280 motors 

question  I know you use the nwsl 489-6    but I contacted NWSL and he recommended 491-6  2mm-2.4mm  with a drive shaft   but I'm wondering  if the 2.4mm might not be a tight fit on the worm  they are 3/32 or 2.3mm

so what you think 

[RR_Mel]

I received the two Mabuchi FK-280SA-14200 motors yesterday and did a rough test.  The eBay listing says 6-15 volt .075amps no load 12300RPM.  At 12 volts it measures 10000RPM .0815amps no load.

 

I installed it in an Athearn Blue Box GP9 as DC only, I don’t intend to run 4 axle diesels in DCC mode on my layout.

 

I checked the Athearn motor after removing it and the RPM was very close to the Mabuchi.  The Athearn runs 12000RPM no load .2280amps at 12 volts.

 

Earlier I built a Mel Dynamometer using a Mabuchi SF266 with a shunt load.  I haven’t attempted to calibrate it but it does let me compare motors.

 

The Mabuchi FK-280 has considerable more power than the Athearn motor at less current.  The Mabuchi puts out 3.8 watts at 12 volts 600ma and the Athearn does 2.1 watts at 12 volts 1.2amps.

 

 

 

I would recommend the Mabuchi FK-280SA-14200 as a very good replacement for the Athearn Blue Box motors, slightly less RPM more power at less current.

 

 

 

 

Mel

 

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

 

 

[RR_Mel]

mikeGTW

Now I get it   I thought you were leaving that short piece in the flywheel    

Good idea to center it  that way  I finally found a source for that K&S stuff so it's on order   and I have a bunch of the athearn nuckle parts from old athearn engines that didn't have flywheels   I know old stuff but still works

And  i want to see how that FK-280 motor works out it does look promising 

those SF-266 motors can't fit two in a gp frame   

 

Without the flywheels a pair of 266 motors will fit in a GP, the 280 will fit with both flywheels.

 

 

The 280 is smaller than the Athearn motor.

 

 

 

Mel

 

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

 

[mikeGTW]

Now I get it   I thought you were leaving that short piece in the flywheel    

Good idea to center it  that way  I finally found a source for that K&S stuff so it's on order   and I have a bunch of the athearn nuckle parts from old athearn engines that didn't have flywheels   I know old stuff but still works

And  i want to see how that FK-280 motor works out it does look promising 

those SF-266 motors can't fit two in a gp frame   

[RR_Mel]

mikeGTW

Mel   I see what you are doing but what is the purpose of the short piece that you glue into the flywheel

I thought just super glue the 9821 3mm onto the new motor shaft 2mm then it would press fit into the athearn nuckle part  (not using the flywheel)

 

The flywheel has a 3.1mm bore and the K&S tube is 3mm, a loose fit.  To glue it into the flywheel if the tube or sleeve is even a tiny bit off center at 12000RPM it’s bad news.

 

The 2mm rod keeps the sleeve centered while the Super Glue Gel sets up using the Gel to make up the .1mm difference.

 

I’ve sleeved six of the Athearn flywheels and all six came out prefect using the 2mm rod for centering.

 

I tried to remove the Athearn universal from a flywheel and by the time I got it out it was worthless.  You could use NWSL universals and make a 2mm shaft motor work but the dual shaft FK-280 motor looks promising.  Because it will fit in the Athearn frames with the Athearn flywheels I’m headed in that direction.

 

 

Mel

 

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

[mikeGTW]

Mel   I see what you are doing but what is the purpose of the short piece that you glue into the flywheel

I thought just super glue the 9821 3mm onto the new motor shaft 2mm then it would press fit into the athearn nuckle part  (not using the flywheel)

[mikeGTW]

doctorwayne

Keep in mind that the 1mm wall thickness is for the entire circumference of the tubing.

I thought about that right about the same time you posted it  my bad 

the K&S 9821 3mm has a .45mm  wall thickness so it will work

Thanks Mike

[RR_Mel]

That is the number on my package (9821) but it only says 3mm but the Athearn shaft measures 3.1mm so it’s a bit loose in the flywheel.  The Athearn flywheel has a plastic universal installed in the other end and it has a 2mm hole in it.  I use a 1” long 2mm rod in the plastic universal then coat the 3mm x .36” long sleeve with Super Glue Gel and slip it into the flywheel.  Four out of four came out perfect.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I did a fifth flywheel for the pictures above, that's five out of five that turned out prefect.

 

 

Mel

 

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

 

 

 

[doctorwayne]

mikeGTW

...3mm with a 1mm wall so the inside would be 2mm

Keep in mind that the 1mm wall thickness is for the entire circumference of the tubing.

Wayne

[mikeGTW]

Mel  thanks for that info   question does the K&S 9821 tubing fit tight on the motor shaft  I'm having trouble finding anyone that carries it in the metric sizes  but there is some on amaz  by ukell  that is 3mm with a 1mm wall so the inside would be 2mm 

[RR_Mel]

The universals I use on pretty much every thing are Northwest Short Line  2mm shaft Universal Joint  489-6, they are 2mm.  I drill them out to fit the Athearn worms.

 

I use 2mm steel rod for my drivelines.  I bought a package of 10 36” long rods about 15 years ago and I have no idea where I bought it.  It goes a long way, I still have 8 full length rods and a 13” shorty after fifty or so remotor jobs.

 

The K&S tubing is #9821.  If you shim the flywheels for 2mm you will need to use the Athearn driveline, the Athearn universal is built into the flywheel.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mel

 

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

[mikeGTW]

So the NWSL universals  is it two different sizes you used  can you list which ones 

and it doesn't say if they come with the shaft part  or is that seperate

the K&S the .45 wall or the .225 wall

[RR_Mel]

Mike

 

Yes I used NWSL universals.

 

 

I ordered two of the MABUCHI FK-280SA-14200 motors to see if they will work better than the 266, their listing says they are 12300RPM.  They have dual 2mm shafts.

 

In experimenting I found that I can sleeve the Athearn flywheels using K&S 3mm brass tubing to fit the 2mm shaft.  It’s kinda touchy but by inserting a short 2mm rod into the pulley end then using super gel to glue the 3mm tube it is centered close enough that it doesn’t vibrate.

 

The FK-280 motors arrived at US Customs 1/22.

 

 

Mel

 

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

 

 

[mikeGTW]

Mel on the sd40-2 frame what exactly did you use to connect the Mabuchi motor to the athean truck   Is it a nwsl part  and if so which one

[RR_Mel]

My layout is still under a major wiring overhaul but I was able to get power to my mainline to check the speed of the Athearn SD9 that I’m in the process of finishing the remotor using a pair of Mabuchi SF266 motors.  I have an electronic stop watch over a measured HO scale mile.  The SD9 clocked in at 58.86 seconds or 61MPH at 12.0 volts DC.

 

Measuring the locomotive speed is much easier when my layout is up and running but due to my Arthritis it’s still unfinished.  Our doctor has me on a new med and it seems to be better so maybe I can get back to it.

 

My layout is a HO scale twice-around with 121’ of track or two scale miles.  I have two sets of sensors, one at 60.5’ and the second at 121’.

 

A stock Athearn SD40-2 frame does the mile in 41 seconds or 87.6MPH

 

For anyone wondering the 2 mile loop was an accident, not planned.  It wasn’t until I started playing around with Arduinos that I measured the length of my mainline track.

 

 

Mel

 

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

 

 

[RR_Mel]

I have several GPs but haven’t done one yet.  I think they will fit.

 

 

Mel

 

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

[mikeGTW]

Thanks for that info Mel   I think I will get some of those and give it a try 

I wonder if I can squeeze two of those into a gp frame  looks to be real close

other wise  the Kato HM-5  will work  just more $$$

but I do have about a doz of the sd type

[RR_Mel]

mikeGTW

Mel  question for you the Mabuchi motor lists 7200 rpm at 12 volts   you say about 6000 rpm   the athearn motors I think ran in the 10 to 12000 rpm   

so does the new install run slower now  will it match up with an original athearn

thanks

 

All of the Athearn motors I’ve checked are well under 7000 no load.  I haven’t checked any of their newer models but I didn’t think they changed their gear ratios.

 

I just checked a new out of the sack Mabuchi at 6600 RPM at 12.0 volts no load.

 

EDIT:

 

I just checked an Athearn SD40-2 Blue Box motor and you are correct, I turns at just over 9000 RPM.  I have remotored a total of 8 Athearn Blue Box SDs and when running them on my layout I haven't experienced a problem at the slower RPM, I never run them over a scale 60 MPH.

 

I just finished a pair of SD40-2 frames with Cary cast metal bodies and weighing in at 35oz each they easily do over 60MPH scale.  I would expect it would be a problem in a consist with the two different motors but I don't run any Athearn with the original motor.  The Canon EN22 is also in the 6000RPM range and they do well with the Mabuchi motors.

 

Thanks for bringing up the different speed!

 

 

Mel

 

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

[mikeGTW]

Mel  question for you the Mabuchi motor lists 7200 rpm at 12 volts   you say about 6000 rpm   the athearn motors I think ran in the 10 to 12000 rpm   

so does the new install run slower now  will it match up with an original athearn

thanks

[Attuvian]

Thanks, guys. The sighs of relief continue in NWSL's being re-born. Thousands giving thanks that they seem to have retained their corporate vision and mission.  IMO, not common these days.

John

[RR_Mel]

John

 

As Wayne suggests NWSL will have the proper worm for MDC locomotives with a 2mm bore.  Their web site isn’t fully up as of yet so maybe a call would get the correct worm to fit the Mabuchi 2mm shaft.

 

 

https://nwsl.com/collections/worms?_=pf&pf_t_bore=Bore%3A%202.0mm&pf_t_outside_diameter=Outside%20Diameter%3A%208mm

 

 

NWSL is in business, I ordered five 2mm universal kits two weeks ago and received them in five days.

 

 

Mel

 

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

[doctorwayne]

RR_Mel

...The MDC worm gear is fine tooth 7.88mm diameter with a 1.2mm pitch. Trying to match shaft size in gearing isn’t my thing....

NWSL has u-joints to fit various shaft sizes and also gears and gearboxes for the MDC locos,, so if you're going to upgrade the motor, it's probably worthwhile to do the drive train, too.  I've done so on Bowser and Mantua steam locomotives, and will be doing a John English Pacific, too.

I've also used NWSL bushings for mating various shaft sizes, but they've been discontinued in favour of the U-joint sets.  The only bushings I have left are the ones with a 1.5mm bore and an O.D. of 3/32", unfortunately not suitable for John's locomotive.

Wayne

[Attuvian]

Thanks, Mel.

Sooner or later I'll find reason to end up re-gearing the old Prairie so the shaft size may be a moot point.  And, who knows?  For the short term, someone may jump in here with news of an available bushing to accommodate the .25mm differential.

As for the internal caps and their compatibility with BEMF decoders, that kind of stuff still causes my head to swim.

You da man, Mel.

John

[RR_Mel]

John

 

I would think so as far as the motor dimensions go, the Pitman is 16.15mm wide and the Mabuchi is 18.3mm.  The problem will be the shaft size.  The Pitman has a 2.25mm shaft and the SF-266 has a 2mm shaft so the original worm won’t just press off and fit the shaft of the Mabuchi, that would be kinda tough to sleeve. 

 

The MDC worm gear is fine tooth 7.88mm diameter with a 1.2mm pitch.  Trying to match shaft size in gearing isn’t my thing.

 

I’m quite sure the Mabuchi motor will fit in the boiler (my MDC 2-8-0 has a 20mm opening) and could be glued to the frame using a silicone glue, I use Amazing Goop to glue my motors in place.

 

As for BEMF the Mabuchi SF-266 has capacitors internally that may have to be removed.  My layout is not operable so I can’t check the BEMF for sure but it seems to work OK with the caps on my short test track.  The picture below shows the SMD internal caps on the circuit board.

 

 

I haven’t opened a SF-266 to see how hard it is to remove the caps.

 

All 14 of the SF-266 motors in my locomotives are wired for DCC operation and I have test run all 7 locomotives, one Athearn SD9 frame, four Athearn SD40-2 frames and two Rivarossi articulateds all with dual SF-266 motors.  Not a single problem so far.

 

 

 

Mel

 

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.