I use 3M 567 connectors with a solid 12 gauge bus and solid 18 gauge feeders. Unlike some others the 567 has a double blade. I also invested in the 3M tool. The tool makes it really easy to crimp the connector correctly.
Unlike others I don't pull the wire through holes in the benchwork, instead I attach 1 1/4" safety cup hooks under the benchwork near the front edge. This makes it easy to run the bus wires - just put on the hooks as I unroll it. I can also unhook the wire and let it drop down where I need to add a feeder and then put back on the hook - while sitting on a chair.
Paul
ATLANTIC CENTRALI've seen professionals not squeeze and latch suitcase connectors properly
I've seen professionals put more than one wire into the backstab hole on receptacles. Like Randy, I had to redo all of the ones in my house.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
I've seen professionals not squeeze and latch suitcase connectors properly because "time" was the issue, so I can just imagine what goes on under some layouts.
With the possible exception of the DCC buss and feeder drops, I don't see "T" taps as a desired wiring method either. Point to point wiring is simply better in most cases.
Of course in DC I have no need for multiple connections to a buss.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRALSuitcase connectors only have limited applications in my view, and wiring my layout is not one of them.
rrinkerI've always avoided suitcase connectors
not suggesting that you're wrong, and I agree that you should do what you feel is right
but the layouts I've seen use them and the one layout had been around for decades.
maybe one of the reasons some modelers have problems with them is because they are using the wrong gauge solid/stranded wire?
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
rrinker Every place I've lived, I've had to repalce ALL the receptacles, because they were all the cheapest junk ones and the contacts get loose, which makes them get warm, and causes plugs to fall out. And the thing is, the good ones aren't much more expensive than the cheap ones, at least at retail - it is when you buy just one, but in the 10 packs it's not worth the safety alone to skimp. Since I'm doing my basement, I'll just buy a few extra packs to get on with replacing the ones upstairs here. --Randy
Every place I've lived, I've had to repalce ALL the receptacles, because they were all the cheapest junk ones and the contacts get loose, which makes them get warm, and causes plugs to fall out. And the thing is, the good ones aren't much more expensive than the cheap ones, at least at retail - it is when you buy just one, but in the 10 packs it's not worth the safety alone to skimp. Since I'm doing my basement, I'll just buy a few extra packs to get on with replacing the ones upstairs here.
--Randy
Agreed, no home inspector, or future owner or remodeler, will come behind me and find any 79 cent stab lock receptacles or switches, because I won't live in house with that fire trap crap.
First thing I did to the new house, replaced all the 1964 wiring devices.........
Now the 1964 wiring itself was top notch in how it was installed.
I'm an electrician by trade, who was raised by a firefighter..........
Certainly wanderng off the topic, but... In my new house, built three and a half years ago, I had an outlet that worked "fine" until a couple months ago. It was on the kitchen island, so on one of the 20A counter circuits. I did a little debugging, and found that the wires that were on the screw terminals were just bent around the screws, but the screws were not tightened at all! I was a little perturbed. Even though the warranty was well over, the electrician came out and checked many of the other 20A outlets, they were all fine. He said they only use the screws on the 20A, and the push ins on all the 15s. I guess the moral of the story is that no matter what method is used, someone can screw it up.
As far as suitcase connectors, I have a feeling that most failures are because they are not installed correctly. There was a video on this site some years ago (I don't know if it is still up) where they layed the wires in, folder the cover over, and then mashed it with pliers. Clearly not how they are meant to be used. If you don't drive the IDC part in place directly, I am sure you lose reliability. I beleive that if they are installed properly, with the proper wire, they will be more than adequate under a layout. It saves time, for sure, and I expect it to be plenty reliable. Working under a layout, I think I am more likely to make a cold solder joint than screw up an IDC. Other's milage may vary! There's more than one way to skin a cat! But why would you want to?
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Randy,
We only use those commercial grade receptacles with the clamps.....
ATLANTIC CENTRALPersonally I dislike suitcase connectors, to me they just represent quick, sloppy work that is hard to work on latter, and hard to make neat and orderly.
.
In the industrial world these "suitcase" connectors save time, and time is always scrutinized. This makes them very appealing for the audience that needs to save time.
For my hobby, reliable is better, and I can invest my own time.
I use suitcase connectors at work, I solder everything on my layouts.
Both are suitable in the appropriate application.
gregccan you name one?
My work mostly involves 480 three phase, but lots of the hardware we use either says "not for use with stranded wire", or "not for use with solid wire" on the product information.
rrinkerI also never use those push in contacts when repalcing receptacles around the house
Almost all new housing is built using the "push-in" connectors on electrical devices.
These are only reliable if you pull back on the wire after you puch it in. When the wire is pulled on, it makes the electrical connection solid.
Many friends have had wiring problems in new houses that is fixed by removing the devices and pulling on the wires.
I used the screw terminals on all the devices in my house.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
I've always avoided suitcase connectors and I see no reason to change that. I also never use those push in contacts when repalcing receptacles around the house, though since I usualy buy the higher quality commercial ones, they usually don;t have a push in option. They do have a backwire option, but the wire is clamped down by the screw
Soldering under the layout doesn't bother me. I don;t even need one hand to count how many times I dripped solder on myself. The reason you get solder drips is by feeding the solder into the hot iron tip instead of at the joint, especially when the joint is not hot enough. It blobs up on the iron tip and when it gets big enough, or you move - plop. Drives me nuts when I see videos where the people are soldering by putting a big blob on the iron and then touching it to the wire. Plus for heavy feeder wire you need a lot of heat, so break out the big soldering gun for that. A good solid mechanical connection is a must - so the heat can transfer across all surfaces. With solid wire used for feeders, that's easy to achieve. Wrap the stripped end tightly around the bus wire. I was happily running test trains around my last layout and not a one of those joints was soldered yet. The apply the heat to one side, and apply the solder to the other. Just like your smaller soldering iron, keeping the tip of the gun clean is important for fast heat transfer - and since it's hard to solidly press against dangling wire this is more important.
ANother trick to avoid making a mistake - I was originally going to use red and black as my bus colors. But under the layout, even though I am not colorblind, red and black can look a lot alike. Instead I went wirth red and white. Black and white would also work. In addition - I use the same colors for the feeders. If you are careful up top, attaching the correct color feeder to the correct rail, then underneath it's a simple matter of connecting like color to like, and everything will be fine, no crossed feeders.
gregc ATLANTIC CENTRAL Not all connectors in the electrical field work with both. can you name one?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Not all connectors in the electrical field work with both.
can you name one?
Not all Sta-kon crimp on connectors are rated for solid wire, and even when they are UL approved, most electricians consider them unreliable with solid wire.
The new push to connect connectors for building wire are not all rated for stranded wire.
Just to name a few.
I have been an electrician/electrical designer/project manager off and on my whole life, wired factories/assembly lines, pumping stations, bridges, skyscrapers and fancy Victorian houses (and a number of model railroads). No matter what manufacturers, code officials or UL say, there is good practice and bad practice.
Suitcase connectors only have limited applications in my view, and wiring my layout is not one of them.
Overmod Attuvian But now that I think of it, much of the stuff I heard in the Navy on virtually every other subject was highly suspect.
But now that I think of it, much of the stuff I heard in the Navy on virtually every other subject was highly suspect.
Aviation Electronics School, Memphis, mid-'60s: the instructors (all senior enlisted) were occasionally graded by junior officers who would drop into the back of a class unannounced and with clipboard in hand. Occasionally someone would tip off an instructor. One of mine spoke of a time that he advised the class to be enthusiastic head-nodders as he was going to hold forth on the "truth" that passage of current was not a really a matter of "hole flow" but that the wire actually moved. He said he got a sterling review on this little exercise. To this day I'm unsure if the evaluator was taken in by the deception or the students were taken in by its telling.
As for the turboencabulator, we were sworn to secrecy - upon pain of either having our enlistment extended or being recalled at a later date to active duty. I will say that I lifted the power supply from one and stashed it in my seabag two days before I was released. Its under my work bench. Gonna use it to power a signalling system someday. An inconvenience, however, that it runs on 28vdc . . .
John
RJ45
Here's one for stranded wire
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=7246
Here's one for solid wire
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=7266
As I understand the difference, the one for solid wire is the V groove and the one for stranded has a pin that is forced between the strands.
ATLANTIC CENTRALNot all connectors in the electrical field work with both.
gregc gregc 951 accommodates 22 to 18 AWG solid/stranded, 952 accommodates 18 to 14 AWG solid/stranded and 953 accommodates 12 AWG solid/stranded why does the description say "solid/stranded" if it doesn't matter?
gregc 951 accommodates 22 to 18 AWG solid/stranded, 952 accommodates 18 to 14 AWG solid/stranded and 953 accommodates 12 AWG solid/stranded
why does the description say "solid/stranded" if it doesn't matter?
Because they are letting you know it works with both. Not all connectors in the electrical field work with both.
Personally I dislike suitcase connectors, to me they just represent quick, sloppy work that is hard to work on latter, and hard to make neat and orderly.
AttuvianBut now that I think of it, much of the stuff I heard in the Navy on virtually every other subject was highly suspect.
Wasn't the Navy the source of the 'bad electron' theory of radio-communications noise and the use of a turboencabulator to relieve it?
gregc951 accommodates 22 to 18 AWG solid/stranded, 952 accommodates 18 to 14 AWG solid/stranded and 953 accommodates 12 AWG solid/stranded
gregcwhen is says "22 to 18 AWG solid/stranded", i got the impression that means 22g solid or 18g stranded.
I take it to mean 22 to 18 AWG solid or stranded.
gregcI've used the red ones with stranded wire (run) with them and found that it cuts some of the strands.
I've put 14 AWG stranded into them without cutting strands.
I had 6" each of 14 AWG stranded and 22 AWG solid in one of these sitting on my desk for years that I fiddle with all the time. Every now and then I check for continuity and have never had a problem. Not exactly a controlled experiment, I know.
Renegade1c I guess I'm one of the few that is all about solid core wire. i use 14 guage for bus wires and 22 gauge for feeders. I solder all my feeders with gaps approximately 2 inches apart on the bus wires to prevent accidental shorting. I also use 26 gauge Cat 5 cable for all my block detection and Tortoise switch motor wiring. It is more difficult to pull but I built wire traces into my benchwork (open grid 1x4). Each 1x4 cross member has two 2" holes cut to run wires though the benchwork. This makes running wire super easy. The only stranded wire I use is for my 12VDC accessory bus and that is 18 ga stranded because I got 6 500' rolls of it for free. Honestly I prefer the solid core wire. Easier to strip insulation without cutting strands. I don't have to worry about adding connectors on the end of the wire like I do when I want Stranded wire to go into a terminal block. 14 curls around screws in the terminal blocks quite nicely. I also like solid wire because it makes great piping for things like refineries. I know its not be primary use but its makes a great alternative.
I guess I'm one of the few that is all about solid core wire. i use 14 guage for bus wires and 22 gauge for feeders. I solder all my feeders with gaps approximately 2 inches apart on the bus wires to prevent accidental shorting. I also use 26 gauge Cat 5 cable for all my block detection and Tortoise switch motor wiring.
It is more difficult to pull but I built wire traces into my benchwork (open grid 1x4). Each 1x4 cross member has two 2" holes cut to run wires though the benchwork. This makes running wire super easy.
The only stranded wire I use is for my 12VDC accessory bus and that is 18 ga stranded because I got 6 500' rolls of it for free.
Honestly I prefer the solid core wire. Easier to strip insulation without cutting strands. I don't have to worry about adding connectors on the end of the wire like I do when I want Stranded wire to go into a terminal block. 14 curls around screws in the terminal blocks quite nicely.
I also like solid wire because it makes great piping for things like refineries. I know its not be primary use but its makes a great alternative.
Yes, I would say you probably are one of the few.
A proper strip tool strips sections in the middle of the run on stranded or solid without breaking the wire. I offset my feeder connections as well because it's often months before I go back and insulate them - last layout I never did. But since they were offset, there was never ever a short. Solid feeders make perfect sense - far easier to push through the hole next to the rail. But even with holes drilled through the benchwork crossmembers, pulling out solid in heavier gauge wiring is harder - maybe not from one end of a straight secion of benchwork to the other, but around that first curve and the stranded just keeps going.
For the multiconductor stuff - either or, but the connectors for stranded and solid are different (RJ plugs anyway). It's easier to break thin solid by flexing it, but through the wall wiring cable usually is solid, the standard is usually reserved for patch cables that do get moved a lot. It's thin enough that it pulls easily even in solid, plus the in-wall type often has teflon insulation for fire resistance which makes it pull through holes in the wood easier.
Of course, free wire tends to trump any other factor, since wire is so expensive these days. I have no idea how much wire I'll need for my layout - a LOT for sure. Certainly more than 500 feet of each color, maybe even more than 1000 ft. I'll probably buy 1000 ft spools, if it's less than 2x the cost of a 500 ft spool. But should someone happen to GIVE me 1000 ft spools of solid #12, guess what I'll be using? I'm trying to standardize all my other accessory connections so I can just buy large quantities of one type of wire instead of all different sorts in smaller quantities for the same reason. No where do I need Cat 5, let alone Cat 6 or 7, but whatever I can get, I'll take - for my panel to servo control board connections, drive board to signal connections, and maybe even the RS485 control bus.
gregc carl425 gregc i think suitcase connectors for 14g solid wire match 18g. would you use 18g for feeders? You want the red ones. 22-18 Awg (Tap), 18-14 Awg (Run) https://tinyurl.com/s5a6aah 951 accommodates 22 to 18 AWG solid/stranded, 952 accommodates 18 to 14 AWG solid/stranded and 953 accommodates 12 AWG solid/stranded when is says "22 to 18 AWG solid/stranded", i got the impression that means 22g solid or 18g stranded. I've used the red ones with stranded wire (run) with them and found that it cuts some of the strands.
carl425 gregc i think suitcase connectors for 14g solid wire match 18g. would you use 18g for feeders? You want the red ones. 22-18 Awg (Tap), 18-14 Awg (Run) https://tinyurl.com/s5a6aah
gregc i think suitcase connectors for 14g solid wire match 18g. would you use 18g for feeders?
i think suitcase connectors for 14g solid wire match 18g. would you use 18g for feeders?
I beleive that interpretation is incorrect based on this:
Engineering Specification Self-Stripping Electrical Connector (as manufactured by 3M, part No. 905) capable of connecting two solid or stranded copper wires, in the range of No. 22 thru No. 18 AWG (inside channel) and No. 18 thru No. 14 AWG (outside channel)...
I believe it is clear that the wire ranges are for both solid and stranded, despite the fact that stranded will be slightly larger. I looked up the size difference, and it isn't huge, though it ceratinly is there. I would be tempted to not use the largest wire in the range stranded, and stay well within the design size. But I would not panic, either way. Clearly, when used with stranded a few strands are going to be cut. It looks like they rate the connectors for a bit less than a solid core wire, it looks like they rate them for three strands, which seems a bit optomistic, but probably way over what we will ever need.
Colorado Front Range Railroad: http://www.coloradofrontrangerr.com/
Onewolf My preference is stranded for bus wire and 22 ga solid for track feeders.
My preference is stranded for bus wire and 22 ga solid for track feeders.
Modeling an HO gauge freelance version of the Union Pacific Oregon Short Line and the Utah Railway around 1957 in a world where Pirates from the Great Salt Lake founded Ogden, UT.
- Photo album of layout construction -
betamax...With DC, as your locomotive slows you crank up the voltage a little more....
Perhaps on a grade with a heavy train, but for the episodes with the dozen locos, the throttle was set to a medium-slow speed, and not adjusted at all.
betamaxWith DCC, the decoder controls the speed, as the voltage decreases it will slow down as the motor is controlled using PWM, where time, not amplitude, determines the speed.
My DC walk-around throttle also puts out PWM current - perhaps that explains the situation, although none of my locos have decoders.
Wayne
Attuvian betamax It does not really matter if the wire is solid or stranded. It makes no difference electrically. I suspect I am about to be schooled on the subject, but my recollection of my old Navy electronics training says that there IS an electrical difference, at least between wiring of the same gauge. I was told that current does not pass through the entire mass of a wire, but on its surface. On that basis, 14 gaage stranded, having a far greater total surface area per unit length than solid, has a greater efficiency (less resistance?) to pass current. Now, for our applications, those effects may well take a back seat to other ones like flexibility, especially on smaller layouts with shorter busses. Guess I'm mostly nit-picking here, with a hat tip to Betamax for his post.
betamax It does not really matter if the wire is solid or stranded. It makes no difference electrically.
It does not really matter if the wire is solid or stranded. It makes no difference electrically.
doctorwayne I recall reading somewhere that DCC simplified wiring, as compared to DC. However, not being all that conversant in DCC (I recently built a Bowser steamer for a friend, though, and successfully installed DCC in it), I'm wondering why I haven't read of anyone doing it in this manner, as it would save a lot of work (and wire). If my DC equipment can push 12 volts through all that track with no voltage drops (none of those locos slowed appreciably as another was added), then I'd think that a decent DCC system could accomplish the same with its 15 volt output. Obviously the rail is a decent conductor and larger than the wire gauges mentioned, so I'd think that the additional digital info in the DCC output would not be impeded, either.
I recall reading somewhere that DCC simplified wiring, as compared to DC.
However, not being all that conversant in DCC (I recently built a Bowser steamer for a friend, though, and successfully installed DCC in it), I'm wondering why I haven't read of anyone doing it in this manner, as it would save a lot of work (and wire). If my DC equipment can push 12 volts through all that track with no voltage drops (none of those locos slowed appreciably as another was added), then I'd think that a decent DCC system could accomplish the same with its 15 volt output. Obviously the rail is a decent conductor and larger than the wire gauges mentioned, so I'd think that the additional digital info in the DCC output would not be impeded, either.
The simple answer is that DC is not the same as DCC.
With DC, as your locomotive slows you crank up the voltage a little more.
With DCC, the decoder controls the speed, as the voltage decreases it will slow down as the motor is controlled using PWM, where time, not amplitude, determines the speed.
The more complex answer is that DCC, being a square wave, is rich in harmonics. Harmonics do no work, but they do cause problems. Hence the need for more robust wiring.