Hi there.
I thought I would just post to say hello and to introduce myself. The short story is that I had an idea of creating a scale model of a cinema and so got in contact with the fantastic modellers out at the Western Pennsylvania Model Railroad Museum just up the road. Seeing their work in railroading up close got me interested (again) in model railroading where I can see some of the technology has changed since my younger days. Well, I have a small electronics company and got interested in seeing if there is anything fun that we can do here with stuff we make while I start laying track. Anyway, I guess I'll be lurking around for a bit. It's good to meet you all.
:Bruce
to the forum. Initial posts are moderated, and delayed. Lots of electronic gurus here, not me, but Randy, Mel, Greg, Mark and others.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
bscloutierI thought I would just post to say hello and to introduce myself.
Hello to you too bscloutier!
Welcome to the forums and back to train modelling!!
Your electronics knowledge will do you good in this hobby!
Please don't hesitate to ask any questions. There are lots of good people here who are glad to help!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Welcome to the Forum. I've found it very interesting & helpful.
I'm quite the electronics whiz...built a Heathkit TV!
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
Wellcome.
Electronics background will help.
Built a Heathkit Ar3 in 1955. DX100, Scope Electronics club in high school.
US Navy Sonar man
Wired sub periscopes after at company in Mass.
Instrumented torpedoes for recovery in Puerto Rico.
Fourteen years as a NASA tech at a Doppler radar site.
Twelve years wiring Navy helicopters at a company in Ct.
Retired as a machine mechanic computer controlled paper winding machines.
Did a lot of electronic projects besides MRR.
Retired in 2006.
Eyes and shakes in hands sometimes have stopped model work.
Now ride eBicycle on forty miles of rail trails. Also have eHeart, Pacemaker. All battery operated. lol
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
richg1998Built a Heathkit Ar3 in 1955. DX100, Scope Electronics club in high school.
Ditto on the Heathkit. I built an oscilloscope, the thing that characterizes transistors whatever it was called, and at least one other (maybe the signal generator). Many moons back.
I am still very current but now responsible for product A-Z. Very hands-on. Leading edge surface mount and all of that. Firmware including network stacks and security (encryption, etc.). Yeah, getting old sucks though.
Anyway, I am curious about DCC. So I have a controller and decoder coming just to fiddle with. I need to make some space before I can start to build a layout. If there is anything that I should stay away from I hope I pick up on that sooner than later.
What's the best tracking approach? Um, I mean keeping track of engines and cars on a layout. DCC sends commands. Seems like it would be good to know where all of the moving stuff is currently. Well, other than standing there watching. ;-)
Thanks for all the welcoming posts!
All my kits had vacuum tubes. Burnt my finger tips many times. Came up through the ranks in electronics you might say to SMT.
Hope you do not have the Bachmann EZ Command controller.
I have the NCE Power Cab.
Bachmann sound value are nice. They have a good repair, return policy. I have some Bachmann that I put my own decoders into some years ago. Better prices on line.
Bachmann has a nice web site with forums, Parts page, diagrams, DCC info.
Other brands are better in some ways.
Tony's Trains has good comparisons.
Google should be your best friend for searching and reviews.
bscloutierIf there is anything that I should stay away from
MTH DCS
This may be controversial but Broadway Limited uses their own decoder. I see a lot of complaints in the forum.
bscloutierWhat's the best tracking approach? Um, I mean keeping track of engines and cars on a layout. DCC sends commands. Seems like it would be good to know where all of the moving stuff is currently.
I'm going out on the limb of my limited knowledge but there seem to be 2 methods. There are occupancy detectors
The other method is to use infrared transmitters and sensors and arduino, Mel is the axe on that method.
I guess technically it's all occupancy sensors. IR sensors are more of a location sensor, it tells when a train is at a specific spot. Other occupancy sensors tell you if a powered or lighted unit, or cars with resistor wheels, are anywhere within a given block - could be at one end or the other, or somewhere in the middle.
There are two types of block detectors - diode drop types, which sense current flowing by the voltage drop across diodes (all the way back to the original Twin-T design use this method), and the newer current transformer type which use a little donut transformer to sense current flowing in the wire feeding the block. The diode drop type cause a voltage reduction, the current transfoer type do not. If EVERY location on the railroad is sensed, it's not a big deal, but if there are undetected parts, such as yard, then with the diode drop type detectors you would have a lower track voltage in the detected areas than in the non-detected ones.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I have a little time before the physical space gets cleared up where I can build the layout. It is nice that DCC lets you operate multiple trains on a single complex layout but to really automate things you need to maintain good location information somehow. If I have to break the track down into many little blocks it will be good to know in the initial planning. Seems like an area in need of some creativity.
My company makes an automation device used, well, for one trackside in 1:1 scale layouts. It's used as part of the trackside equipment every mile/kilometer of track. We have stuff all over the glode. China uses a lot. Our controller is also used in people movers. If you go through the Atlanta airport the people mover doors and other things are contrlled by our JNIOR. Atlanta, Dallas, San Francisco and Heathro I believe are active installations. I think the tram in Vegas uses it as well. So my own layout should probably carry some of that sophistication, eh? The big market for the thing has been in cinema (why I was looking to get a cinema model built).
Yeah, Arduino seems like a great little tool for all of this. I am not thrilled about installing tons of little wires to every part of the layout with all kinds of little sensors. I'd rather put that effort into lighting some of the countryside. Hmm...
No track yet but I just got both the Bachman EZ Command and the NCE Power Cab in to evaluate. I wasn't sure what and how much you could do with either? Kind of both ends of that spectrum isn't it? I am thinking that if you have a lot of off-track effects to control you need the latter. But I am siding now towards keeping all of that off-track stuff separate so it can be mostly automated.
bscloutier No track yet but I just got both the Bachman EZ Command and the NCE Power Cab in to evaluate. I wasn't sure what and how much you could do with either? Kind of both ends of that spectrum isn't it? I am thinking that if you have a lot of off-track effects to control you need the latter. But I am siding now towards keeping all of that off-track stuff separate so it can be mostly automated.
I personnally would discourage you from using a Bachman EZ command system. It’s very much entry level and a bit unconventional. I think I’ve seen one video of someone using it and it seamed cumbersome and limited in what it can do. The Power Cab, or the Zephyr Express, sort of Digitrax’s equivalent are much better and can be added on to in the future using each manufacturers systems. The EZ command I guess has some of that stuff... but is kind of limited in addons I think.
You could also look at some of the newer systems coming into the market, such as the Pi-Sprog system, which are a bit more versatile in that the are ment to work with throttle and hardware. And there is also Deadrail, which I personnally think is idea, at least in HO and larger scales were size permits (RailPro is one I know a bit about). My point is the OP should do some reasearch into all the option out there before choosing a system.
Regards, Isaac
I model my railroad and you model yours! I model my way and you model yours!
Bruce,
While the 1A Bachmann E-Z Command is very limited and does look toy-ish, it does what it does pretty well. That said, the NCE Power Cab is a MUCH more full-featured 2A DCC system that allows you access to the full spectrum of CVs. The upgrade path is much better than the E-Z Command, as well. I also find the Power Cab more intuitive to use and program with.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
bscloutier I have a little time before the physical space gets cleared up where I can build the layout. It is nice that DCC lets you operate multiple trains on a single complex layout but to really automate things you need to maintain good location information somehow. If I have to break the track down into many little blocks it will be good to know in the initial planning. Seems like an area in need of some creativity. My company makes an automation device used, well, for one trackside in 1:1 scale layouts. It's used as part of the trackside equipment every mile/kilometer of track. We have stuff all over the glode. China uses a lot. Our controller is also used in people movers. If you go through the Atlanta airport the people mover doors and other things are contrlled by our JNIOR. Atlanta, Dallas, San Francisco and Heathro I believe are active installations. I think the tram in Vegas uses it as well. So my own layout should probably carry some of that sophistication, eh? The big market for the thing has been in cinema (why I was looking to get a cinema model built). Yeah, Arduino seems like a great little tool for all of this. I am not thrilled about installing tons of little wires to every part of the layout with all kinds of little sensors. I'd rather put that effort into lighting some of the countryside. Hmm... No track yet but I just got both the Bachman EZ Command and the NCE Power Cab in to evaluate. I wasn't sure what and how much you could do with either? Kind of both ends of that spectrum isn't it? I am thinking that if you have a lot of off-track effects to control you need the latter. But I am siding now towards keeping all of that off-track stuff separate so it can be mostly automated.
Automation? Nothing against the idea, but you will find very few modelers interested in automating the actual operation of the trains.
Blocks, signal and detection blocks are not generally "little", but more typically anywhere from 1 to 3 times the length of the trains you plan to operate. Example, on my new layout, currently in planning after a recent move, a typical mainline block is 30 to 50 actual feet long.
Most people want to run the train, be the engineer. They just want it to be flexible and easy. That is where DCC comes in.
How large of a layout are you thinking about? Any particular railroad, location, era in mind?
Sheldon
PS: please explain "model of a cinema"?
ATLANTIC CENTRALPS: please explain "model of a cinema"?
Oh, well my company produces the JNIOR. It's a single board computer with relays and other I/O. It is on the spectrum between Arduino and the Raspberry Pi. Something like a Beagle Board in a more refined finished product sense. Some of the JNIORs are used in movie theaters. They allow the media systems (digital replacement for film projectors) to control lighting, sound, curtains and, you know, deal with fire alarms and such. If you go to a movie anywhere on the globe you stand a 1-in-3 chance that the JNIOR is in use there. We’ve been at it for a long time (since before digital projectors). So we "automate" the cinemas plus all kinds of other stuff.
I had wanted to build a scale model of a current day cinema for use as a demo at trade shows. We really don't need to demo our product since almost everyone at these shows knows what it is. So I had wanted to go overboard in the precision of the modelling to make the model itself an attraction. You guys in the model railroading hobby are remarkable modelers!
Ok so the movie theater industry is struggling. The competition for them is that folks have better theaters in their homes. Not to mention being able to hit pause, raid the refrigerator or grab yet another beer inexpensively.
I went up to talk to the modelers up at the nearby model train museum. They were interested in building a theater model since it is something different to do. Plus we would fund it. The problem is that unless you are modeling a classic venue there is nothing that exciting to try to recreate at scale.
Anyway, seeing their activity got my model railroad itch going.
I am all about automation and not so capable of a modeler. So I’d be looking to build a layout with freight yards at either end. Then program the computers to break down trains and rebuild them to move container cars separately from one place to another against some individual schedules. All of it automated. Then grab that beer and sit back and watch it. The engineer in me would be consumed in refining the algorithms to get the simulated transportation done more efficiently or something along those lines. Plus there would likely be some hardware I'd have to cobble along the way.
This DCC seems a bit limited and somewhat of a kludge when you get into the bits and bytes of it. I assume there are competing systems?
bscloutier ATLANTIC CENTRAL PS: please explain "model of a cinema"? Oh, well my company produces the JNIOR. It's a single board computer with relays and other I/O. It is on the spectrum between Arduino and the Raspberry Pi. Something like a Beagle Board in a more refined finished product sense. Some of the JNIORs are used in movie theaters. They allow the media systems (digital replacement for film projectors) to control lighting, sound, curtains and, you know, deal with fire alarms and such. If you go to a movie anywhere on the globe you stand a 1-in-3 chance that the JNIOR is in use there. We’ve been at it for a long time (since before digital projectors). So we "automate" the cinemas plus all kinds of other stuff. I had wanted to build a scale model of a current day cinema for use as a demo at trade shows. We really don't need to demo our product since almost everyone at these shows knows what it is. So I had wanted to go overboard in the precision of the modelling to make the model itself an attraction. You guys in the model railroading hobby are remarkable modelers! Ok so the movie theater industry is struggling. The competition for them is that folks have better theaters in their homes. Not to mention being able to hit pause, raid the refrigerator or grab yet another beer inexpensively. I went up to talk to the modelers up at the nearby model train museum. They were interested in building a theater model since it is something different to do. Plus we would fund it. The problem is that unless you are modeling a classic venue there is nothing that exciting to try to recreate at scale. Anyway, seeing their activity got my model railroad itch going. I am all about automation and not so capable of a modeler. So I’d be looking to build a layout with freight yards at either end. Then program the computers to break down trains and rebuild them to move container cars separately from one place to another against some individual schedules. All of it automated. Then grab that beer and sit back and watch it. The engineer in me would be consumed in refining the algorithms to get the simulated transportation done more efficiently or something along those lines. Plus there would likely be some hardware I'd have to cobble along the way. This DCC seems a bit limited and somewhat of a kludge when you get into the bits and bytes of it. I assume there are competing systems?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL PS: please explain "model of a cinema"?
OK Bruce,
I understand the technology you are refering to, in a previous life I programed early PLC's in industrial settings, installed early energy management systems, and back in the 80's converted relay logic to PLC programing.
Here are some of the challenges you will face.
Automatic uncoupling of HO trains is not reliable enough for what you describe.
It is one thing to automate the stopping and starting, route selection, etc., but coupling and uncoupling, switching cars, not likely to work out well.
Getting an HO model locomotive to stop smoothly, and repeatedly in the same spot, for magneting uncoupling, with automated controls will be impossible.
The mechanicals of these models will not provide the necessary level of performance.
Writing the software will be the easy part........
Dirty track, sticky couplers, variations in rolling resistance, etc, etc., will play havoc on actual implimentation.
About DCC.....
DCC is 30 year old technology. But it has no real competition, nor will it ever in your or my life time.
Model railroaders are mostly the sort of people who, once they invest in something like that, stay with it forever.
Who in their right mind would install decoders in 50 or 100 locos, build a basement sized layout, buy radio throttles and repeaters, boosters, reversers, etc, and scrap it all and do it over when something new comes along?
Trust me, not many of them.
It has taken 25 years for DCC to exceed 50% useage among HO and N scale modelers and for manufacturers to imbrace it as the primary market choice - DCC is here to stay, no matter its shortcomings.
Automation - automation like your company provides in the real world works because the physics is different. A proximity sensor can tell a machine to stop, and its behavior can be adjusted and monitored.
These models lack sufficient mass to behave consistantly. The physics does not scale down.
Layout plans - Two yards, one at each end is not the best idea. A loop with a hidden "staging" yard for "off stage" and visable yard "on stage" would be easier and better, and would offer more action in less space.
You really need not worry too much about being a "modeler" to get started in this hobby these days. High quality RTR trains are the order of the day. Many modelers only "build" the layout, structures and scenery, and learning those skills is not impossible.
Feel free to ask more questions, and float more ideas.......
PS - I don't go to the "cinema" any more, I don't really like being around strangers any more. And I designed and built a killer home theater speaker system way back in the 80's.......HiFi, one of my other hobbies......
bscloutierbuild a layout with freight yards at either end. Then program the computers to break down trains and rebuild them to move container cars separately from one place to another against some individual schedules. All of it automated.
this reminds me of what someone said about slate roofs ... "they last a lifetime and it takes a lifetime to pay for them".
at least you didn't mention picking them up or spotting them at industries.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
gregc bscloutier build a layout with freight yards at either end. Then program the computers to break down trains and rebuild them to move container cars separately from one place to another against some individual schedules. All of it automated. this reminds me of what someone said about slate roofs ... "they last a lifetime and it takes a lifetime to pay for them". at least you didn't mention picking them up or spotting them at industries.
bscloutier build a layout with freight yards at either end. Then program the computers to break down trains and rebuild them to move container cars separately from one place to another against some individual schedules. All of it automated.
Exactly the kind of comment to expect from the disposable mentality crowd.
My 1901 house, now on the market, has its original slate roof, now 118 years young. We spent a little on it 24 years ago when we restored the house, but not even close to what reroofing would have cost. That roof is still fine and is not likely to need any work for another decade or two. Think of the environmental impact - that house has never put a roof in a landfill, and it has kept people safe and dry for 118 years......
I assume your comment was directed at the possible cost of Bruce's proposed automation ideas?
A speed shop owner I new as a young adult when I was building hot rods often said "speed costs money, how fast would you like to go?".
bscloutier The short story is that I had an idea of creating a scale model of a cinema and so got in contact with the fantastic modellers out at the Western Pennsylvania Model Railroad Museum just up the road. Seeing their work in railroading up close got me interested (again) in model railroading where I can see some of the technology has changed since my younger days. Well, I have a small electronics company and got interested in seeing if there is anything fun that we can do here with stuff we make while I start laying track.
The short story is that I had an idea of creating a scale model of a cinema and so got in contact with the fantastic modellers out at the Western Pennsylvania Model Railroad Museum just up the road. Seeing their work in railroading up close got me interested (again) in model railroading where I can see some of the technology has changed since my younger days. Well, I have a small electronics company and got interested in seeing if there is anything fun that we can do here with stuff we make while I start laying track.
bscloutier Anyway, I am curious about DCC. So I have a controller and decoder coming just to fiddle with. I need to make some space before I can start to build a layout. If there is anything that I should stay away from I hope I pick up on that sooner than later. What's the best tracking approach? Um, I mean keeping track of engines and cars on a layout. DCC sends commands. Seems like it would be good to know where all of the moving stuff is currently. Well, other than standing there watching. ;-)
bscloutier I have a little time before the physical space gets cleared up where I can build the layout. It is nice that DCC lets you operate multiple trains on a single complex layout but to really automate things you need to maintain good location information somehow. If I have to break the track down into many little blocks it will be good to know in the initial planning. Seems like an area in need of some creativity.
bscloutier I am all about automation and not so capable of a modeler. So I’d be looking to build a layout with freight yards at either end. Then program the computers to break down trains and rebuild them to move container cars separately from one place to another against some individual schedules. All of it automated. Then grab that beer and sit back and watch it.
I am all about automation and not so capable of a modeler. So I’d be looking to build a layout with freight yards at either end. Then program the computers to break down trains and rebuild them to move container cars separately from one place to another against some individual schedules. All of it automated. Then grab that beer and sit back and watch it.
A nearly overwhelming challenge, to say the least. Given the state of model railroading today, it would seem to me that DCC is not the answer to your question. Block wiring, occupancy detectors, whatever, the two-fold issue would remain: how to track individual locos and individual pieces of rolling stock as well as automate their exact movements. It seems to me that in order to achieve your objective, you would need some sort of a device like a transponder on each piece of moving equipment to identify and locate individual locos and rolling stock, or at least consists.
In any event, why waste your time on a scale model cinema? It might be one thing to model a movie theater on a layout, but who wants to model the interior with an operating screen, opening and closing stage curtains, etc. Why not go right after the automation of a classification yard which you indicated that you are interested in automating?
Just some thoughts.
Alton Junction
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Automation? Nothing against the idea, but you will find very few modelers interested in automating the actual operation of the trains. Most people want to run the train, be the engineer. They just want it to be flexible and easy. That is where DCC comes in.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Here are some of the challenges you will face. Automatic uncoupling of HO trains is not reliable enough for what you describe. It is one thing to automate the stopping and starting, route selection, etc., but coupling and uncoupling, switching cars, not likely to work out well. Getting an HO model locomotive to stop smoothly, and repeatedly in the same spot, for magneting uncoupling, with automated controls will be impossible. The mechanicals of these models will not provide the necessary level of performance. Writing the software will be the easy part........ Dirty track, sticky couplers, variations in rolling resistance, etc, etc., will play havoc on actual implimentation.
The idea of completely automating a model railroad layout to closely simulate the operations of the prototype appeals to me as a long time modeler. Kudos to you, Bruce, if you could design an affordable system that is relatively easy to put together and "operate". But, I have my doubts. Nothing is impossible, but some things are impractical or at least unaffordable and/or overly complex.
Sheldon raises a lot of valid issues like poorly performing couplers for such a task, dirty track, imprecise locomotive movements, and other such drawbacks. But, my biggest concern would be the complexity of "programming" the software that would be necessary to automate an individual layout. Since all layouts are different in their design and intended operation, there is no such thing as "one size fits all".
Software programming does not scare or intimidate me since it was my profession for a good part of my career. But it is time consuming, to say the least, and it requires a skill set that many modelers would not possess, so the learning curve would be intimidating and a turnoff for many, if not most, modelers.
But, hey, give it a shot. Why not start with a small yard and automate it to simply classify a string of freight cars?
on another forum, some enthusiastic souls described their ambitions to build a completely automated layout that does pick up and drop off cars at industries. This requires some precision location of cars and locos acocunting for the number of cars and their lengths being pushed/pulled by cars.
one modeler built an encoder into the loco to actually measure wheel revolutions for positioning.
it seems some modelers dream of automation while at another extreme, some desire the sophistication of an airliners glass cockpit.
Our Robots, Ourselves discussed the sophistication required for fully automated vehicles including trains, planes, automobiles and undersea search drones. The author suggested automating the tedium and leaving the more complicated stuff to humans.
perhaps switching cars should be left to humans, while automating trains that follows signals to a destination is already achievable.
(P.S. Any reason why spell checking doesn't work in this editor?)
gregc on another forum, some enthusiastic souls described their ambitions to build a completely automated layout that does pick up and drop off cars at industries. This requires some precision location of cars and locos acocunting for the number of cars and their lengths being pushed/pulled by cars. one modeler built an encoder into the loco to actually measure wheel revolutions for positioning. it seems some modelers dream of automation while at another extreme, some desire the sophistication of an airliners glass cockpit. Our Robots, Ourselves discussed the sophistication required for fully automated vehicles including trains, planes, automobiles and undersea search drones. The author suggested automating the tedium and leaving the more complicated stuff to humans. perhaps switching cars should be left to humans, while automating trains that follows signals to a destination is already achievable.
And that is what DCC, or my Advanced Cab Control, attempt to do, releave the tedium and streamline the tasks that the humans must do.
While neither provides mainline "automation", both streamline the tasks necessary for multiple operators to operate their trains along the same trackage without conflict.
And in conjunction with a good signal system, such operation can easily be called semi automation. And, features like my automatic train control will at least stop trains from entering blocks they are not authorized in, and prevent collisions. And that does not even require DCC....
That's what I was thinking. Some combo of human and automation.
Couldn't the operator somehow take control of the loco as it dips below a certain speed step to then handle the spotting of the cars? And then release the loco to the computer as it accelerates back to the designated speed step. Car spotting would seem to be the most problematic aspect of automating the layout, for all of the reasons Sheldon mentioned.
Keeps the operator active and engaged instead of always sitting in a chair simply watching.
- Douglas
DoughlessSome combo of human and automation.
Or, while the automation runs the freight system between yards and sidings you get to run a passenger train or two manually through the layout. That challenges the automation to get its job done with you in its way. It challenges you to obey signals and not cause a mishap. Could be fun and turn into somewhat of a game. ;-)
But, this assumes the automation is complete and robust which as you all have pointed out is NOT a simple task if possible at all. Sounds like fun though. Doesn't it?
bscloutier Doughless Some combo of human and automation. Or, while the automation runs the freight system between yards and sidings you get to run a passenger train or two manually through the layout. That challenges the automation to get its job done with you in its way. It challenges you to obey signals and not cause a mishap. Could be fun and turn into somewhat of a game. ;-) But, this assumes the automation is complete and robust which as you all have pointed out is NOT a simple task if possible at all. Sounds like fun though. Doesn't it?
Doughless Some combo of human and automation.
For me? It would be fun to watch and run. Not to design and build.
DoughlessFor me? It would be fun to watch and run. Not to design and build.
While I don't have the knowledge or expertise to build such a system, if I did, I'd think the design and build would be the fun and interesting part. Watching it run would be boring, like a loop in a department store window, at Christmas.
Wayne
doctorwayne Doughless For me? It would be fun to watch and run. Not to design and build. While I don't have the knowledge or expertise to build such a system, if I did, I'd think the design and build would be the fun and interesting part. Watching it run would be boring, like a loop in a department store window, at Christmas. Wayne
Doughless For me? It would be fun to watch and run. Not to design and build.
I see your point. It would be a chore for me to design and build, since I don't have the knowledge. But that's why it would be fun for me to operate and interact. Couldn't say how someone else would like it.