Making a 1987 Riverossi 2-6-6-2 DCC. Need better motor.

[gdelmoro]

Anyone know what I can use to replace the existing motor with a smoother running motor?

the current motor runs fine on DC but not as nice as the newer ones.

[wvg_ca]

I -assume- that you mean a five pole [or better] can motor rather than an old style three pole open frame motor ??

[RR_Mel]

Gary

 

If you can find a 12 volt Canon EN22 they fit and work the best for me.  You have to be careful buying them off eBay, there are a lot of 24 volt EN22s that are listed as Hobby Motors, some not listed that way.

 

I have had to send back a bunch of the 24 volt motors not listed as Hobby Motor.

 

Make sure you use NWSL Universals.

 

The link below is a Rivarossi Y6B with a Canon EN22 install.

 

https://melvineperry.blogspot.com/2011/12/december-21-2011-my-y6b-conversion-to.html

 

I haven’t seen a 2-6-6-2 but the Y6B doesn’t have much room for a large can motor, a lot of over hang from the cab.  It doesn’t look to bad painted flat black.

 

EDIT:

 

An easy check is a 12 volt motor measures 19 to 20Ω and the 24 volt motor measures over 50Ω across the motor windings.

 

 

Mel

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

[BroadwayLion]

I'll say you do! New motors and new geers.

 

Them GG1s were smooth runners when new, but not so much now.  Besides they will not fit in subwqay tunnels of LION.

[stevetx]

I am not familiar with that Rivarossi model.  However, I suggest you consider the new square can motors that "hit" the market about 2 years ago.  I found out about them recently in "RepowerAndRegear groups io" (do a search and take a look there as a lot of the members are very experienced in re-motor and there are lots of locos discussed along with photos and such) when I was searching for motors to put in my Rivarossi and Mantua steamers.  I could not find the EN22 Mel has used - he does great work.  These square motors are 6 pole, 4 magnet motors with great torque. They cost less than $3 each so far from China via the auction site. There are three to look at:

Minebea SS10GORTME: 10mm X 10mm 11700RPM
Minebea SE15HOSLTP: 15mm X 15mm 6500RPM
Mabuchi SF-266SA: 18mm X 18mm 7200RPM

The 10 and 15 mm square are small but don't let that fool you.  I have installed 18mm square motors in two Mantua Pacifics with the power drive gear box.  They are smooth running, powerful motors.  I obtained both the 15mm and 18mm which are now slated for my other Mantuas and Rivarossis. I plan to switch out a Canon motor I already put in a Rivarossi with one of these squares. 

I recommend you look close at Mel's web site as he has done neat stuff with his Rivarossi articulated locos using the EN22.  I believe the square motors will be an option to that motor.

[RR_Mel]

I can’t find the torque specs on the Mabuchi SF-266SA however it has a high stall current of 1.17 amps at 12 volts (7200 RPM) and that should mean good torque.  I’m not expecting much for the price and the RPM is too high.

 

I ordered a couple of them to play around with.  Be awhile, the eBay listing says October 9 to 21 delivery.

 

 

Mel

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

[RR_Mel]

When I first ran into the Canon EN22 I only ordered a couple because of the price, $1.19 from BG Micro in Dallas.  After trying one I ordered 20, then 10 more.  Should have bought all they had.

 

 

Mel

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

[stevetx]

Mel,

I remember reading about that 1.17 amp stall in "RepowerAndRegear" when it first came up with the 18mm square motor.  There was discussion about the merits of its measure.  One guy said he could not stop the output shaft with his fingers where on other motors he could.  That evolved to discussions of anyone ever having a motor stall. The DC and DCC users of steam locos seem to agree the only common stall occurance they recalled was a valve gear or connecting rod coming loose and locking the drivers which stalled the motor. Agreement was then in that case a decoder could be damaged.  Seems like there could be some kind of 'simple and tiny circuit breaker' between the power source (rail or battery) and decoder (DCC or DWTC) that could shut down current to the decoder like the old time clear glass auto accessory tubular fuse but at a very low current. All that is beyond my brain power.

[RR_Mel]

I’m not worried about the stall or locked rotor current of these motors, I was using the current draw to guesstamate the motor torque. 

 

The Canon EN22 draws 1.45 amps at 12 volts at locked rotor and it is rated at 16.1 mN or 2279 ounce inches at 5400 RPM.

 

I’ve been modeling HO since 1951 and in all that time I have only had one motor stall locked rotor.  That happened when a rod screw came out of one of my steam locomotives and locked up the wheels about 20 years ago.

 

EDIT:

That made me a believer in Blue Threadlock.

 

From the info I’ve found since the post on this topic the motors look promising.  As mentioned I can not stop the 2mm shaft on a Canon EN22 motor with my fingers at 10 volts and up.

 

I’ll put the ones I ordered through the Mel testing and do a post with my results.  I’m hoping the old saying isn’t true in this case, “if it’s too good to be true is most likely isn’t”.  I could really go for some good working cheapo motors.

 

Any current protection for a decoder has to be instant or it will take out the decoder.  I have several low current resettable fuses (50ma and 100ma) but they’re way to slow acting to protect any solid state device.  An old quick blow glass fuse would work, a fast action electronic circuit breaker would be better.

 

 

Mel

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

[RR_Mel]

I didn’t notice until just now that the windings of the square motors aren’t skewed, that will make a big difference at low RPM power.

 

Maybe the additional pole will help the low speed power.

 

 

Mel

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

[doctorwayne]

stevetx

....One guy said he could not stop the output shaft with his fingers where on other motors he could. That evolved to discussions of anyone ever having a motor stall. The DC and DCC users of steam locos seem to agree the only common stall occurance they recalled was a valve gear or connecting rod coming loose and locking the drivers which stalled the motor....

A friend, on my recommendation, bought the brass loco shown below (not its original tender shown)....

...which had a large can motor...

The plan was to make it into a model of a CNR prototype, and turned out, I think, rather well...

During the build, I needed to balance the weight of that motor, so cast a new lead weight to fit into the boiler.  The loco then tipped the scales at about 2lbs. 
While it's an excellent puller, and in a test with a 100oz. loaded coal train, it moved the train up a 45'-long 2.8% grade, with numerous curves, without difficulty. 
However, on a subsequent test with two or three more loaded cars, the loco actually stalled, too heavy and too much trailing weight to even slip its drivers (the latter a good safety device to prevent burned-out motors).

That's the only time I've seen a loco actually stall.  Fortunately, my friend does not run trains of that weight. 

Wayne

[gdelmoro]

Thanks for all the posts! I’ve had a terrible time trying to get onto this website. Gave up yesterday.

Yes I want a new motor don’t want to replace with the same old.

Your posts have provided me with a lot of information here and I need to look into the ideas and information provided.

I went to the NWSL website and found a document on how to replace the motor.  Can’t find a video anywhere.

And those of you that questioned the 2-6-6-2 were correct! I moved to a new house last year building a new layout and for the last 20 years at the old house layout the locomotive was in a box.  I Opened that box yesterday and it’s a 2-8-8-2.

If anyone knows where I can find a video I’d love to see it.  I think the NWSL site has more info on gears etc.

[RR_Mel]

Gary

 

The Rivarossi Y6B, 2-8-8-2 is a very good running locomotive.  I have three with Canon EN22 motors.  The Canon motor hangs out the back of the cab ¼” and from the measurements of the square motor talked about it is slightly longer.

 

Any Rare Earth Magnet can motor that will fit will work in the Y6B.  Close couple the motor to the Rivarossi gear box.  If the motor doesn’t clear the cab rear wall section you will need to trim it to fit.

 

The Faulhaber 2224RS will fit but with the passing of Eldon Shirey (RIP Motorman) they’re hard to find at a good price.

 

The Rivarossi gear box shafts are 2mm as is the Canon EN22.  The square motors above also have a 2mm shaft.

 

Here is a link to my Blog Y6B remotor post.

 

https://melvineperry.blogspot.com/2011/12/december-21-2011-my-y6b-conversion-to.html

 

If you want to contact me by email send me your email address by the Forum PM.  I’ve remotored a sack full of Rivarossi locomotives and be glad to help.

 

 

Mel

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

[Spalato68]

This motor could be replacement for Faulhaber 2224RS:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-17mm-Big-Coreless-Motor-DC-12V-15000RPM-High-Speed-DIY-Tattoo-Machine/192749187210?_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D59444%26meid%3Da7042d893b394502985be2a2bce52734%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D12%26mehot%3Dwa%26sd%3D283275034611%26itm%3D192749187210%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

If datasheet is correct, it is a very strong motor! Shaft is 1,5 mm, but that is easy to correct. The advantage is its dimensions, it is just 24,5 mm long. 

Yes, Motorman was great source, not only on motors, but also on knowledge. I am happy to had opportunity to communicate with him for a while and learn some things. I am grateful him for that.

In any case, I would rather go for decent iron core motor like Canon mentioned above or e.g. Kato motor, or good coreless motor than buy 3 dollar motor...for that smal amount of money, you cannot expect quality (for a long term). OK, if you drive a locomotive once a month for 30 mins, it can be good. But if locomotive will be used often, on long sesions, pull long trains..it is better to invest little more in a hearth of each locomotive, and that is motor. 

I must admit that I did not test motor I gave link above. But it is intended for serious equipment, which is used for a long period of time, so I expect, it should be ok.

Hrvoje 

 

[stevetx]

Gary, FYI - the Mabuchi SF-266SA comes with a 2mm diameter / 18.5mm long output shaft.  I shortened my shafts to 10mm to fit locos using a hack saw and vise.  The case is 30.6mm long including a plastic end cap into which electrical taps are inserted.  I popped off the end cap and did not use the taps.  I soldered lead wires direct to the electrical tabs the are revealed after popping off the cap.  This made the case just 25 mm long. The steps I did are exactly what most re-motor folks have done in the "RepowerAndRegear" group - I just did what I read from their experiences.  At the price I paid they were an easy gamble. 

Mel, I do not have an EN22 but I wonder how the SF-266SA mods resulting in a 10mm shaft length + 25mm case length compare.

[RR_Mel]

Spalato68

This motor could be replacement for Faulhaber 2224RS:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-17mm-Big-Coreless-Motor-DC-12V-15000RPM-High-Speed-DIY-Tattoo-Machine/192749187210?_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D59444%26meid%3Da7042d893b394502985be2a2bce52734%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D12%26mehot%3Dwa%26sd%3D283275034611%26itm%3D192749187210%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

If datasheet is correct, it is a very strong motor! Shaft is 1,5 mm, but that is easy to correct. The advantage is its dimensions, it is just 24,5 mm long. 

Yes, Motorman was great source, not only on motors, but also on knowledge. I am happy to had opportunity to communicate with him for a while and learn some things. I am grateful him for that.

In any case, I would rather go for decent iron core motor like Canon mentioned above or e.g. Kato motor, or good coreless motor than buy 3 dollar motor...for that smal amount of money, you cannot expect quality (for a long term). OK, if you drive a locomotive once a month for 30 mins, it can be good. But if locomotive will be used often, on long sesions, pull long trains..it is better to invest little more in a hearth of each locomotive, and that is motor. 

I must admit that I did not test motor I gave link above. But it is intended for serious equipment, which is used for a long period of time, so I expect, it should be ok.

Hrvoje 

 

 

The RPM RPM is way to high, 15K is three times the needed RPM.  5400 RPM is the needed RPM.

 

 

Mel

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

 

[RR_Mel]

stevetx

Gary, FYI - the Mabuchi SF-266SA comes with a 2mm diameter / 18.5mm long output shaft.  I shortened my shafts to 10mm to fit locos using a hack saw and vise.  The case is 30.6mm long including a plastic end cap into which electrical taps are inserted.  I popped off the end cap and did not use the taps.  I soldered lead wires direct to the electrical tabs the are revealed after popping off the cap.  This made the case just 25 mm long. The steps I did are exactly what most re-motor folks have done in the "RepowerAndRegear" group - I just did what I read from their experiences.  At the price I paid they were an easy gamble. 

Mel, I do not have an EN22 but I wonder how the SF-266SA mods resulting in a 10mm shaft length + 25mm case length compare.

 

I ordered two of the SF-266SA motors, be awhile, slow boat from you know where.

 

The steel shafts cut easy using a Dremel cutoff wheel.

 

Mel

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

[rrinker]

 Hmm, are those really genuine Caon EN-22's, to stall at over an amp? I'd think at over na amp they'd melt - the Stewart Baldwin switchers I have all have EN-22 motors in them, and I don't think I've ever been able to get one above 1/2 amp. Normal free running, they draw less than 50mA - typically 25mA with nothing coupled on, on level track! The motors themselves have stickers on indicating their Canon origin.

                                          --Randy

[RR_Mel]

Randy

 

The motors I have are CANON EN22-R11N1B    12VDC - 5400 RPM.  They draw 400 to 500ma pulling a good load up my 3½% grades.  A pair of E7s equally equipped draw 800 to about 900 ma operating on DC pulling a loaded train up my grades.

 

I haven’t checked my steam locomotives in a long time so I can’t remember what they draw, several of my cab Forwards have dual EN22 motors with 10 ounces of added weight.  My E7s are heavy, Athearn SD40-2 frames with Bowser E7 cast pot metal bodies (over 2 pounds each).  The Canon motors don’t get hot under normal running conditions.  I also have a pair of E7s with Mashima motors, I think they are 540s and they are very close to being a dup of the EN22.  Same current at the same voltage at the same RPM.

 

I have two new Canon EN22-R11N1B motors in stock and I just used a pair of vise grip pliers to keep the rotor from turning and at 12.0 volts both draw the same exact current 1.02 amps.

 

They both draw 43ma no load at 12 volts.

 

 

Mel

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

 

[RR_Mel]

Randy

 

I don’t think I would worry about locked rotor on a CANON EN22-R11N1B motor dinging a decoder, using the vice grips on the motors a few minutes ago reminded me of their tremendous power/torque.  I really think that the EN22 would destroy the locomotive drive train before it dinged the decoder.

 

 

Mel

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

[rrinker]

 I'll have to check when I get home, I'm pretty sure the motors in my locos are EN22, but the other numbers might be different. 

 I wouldn't worry about a 1 amp locked rotor current killing a decoder, unless I was using some ultra tiny Z scale decoder for some reason. Nearly any N or HO decoder can handle 1 amp continuous, with a higher peak, so no danger there. I just see a huge difference betwene the current draw of these "aftermarket" EN22 motors vs ones that came factory equipped in a loco - mine are not remotors, they are what these locos came with out of the box. They run so well, it is definitely worth using these same motors in other locos with poor motors. 

                                      --Randy

 

[RR_Mel]

Randy

 

I have 36 Canon EN22-R11N1B motors and one without a label.  I’m a EE and I don’t do very well in ME fields so the best I can do with the mechanical ability with the micro motors is through my experimentation over the last 10 years or so.

 

Of all of the micro motors I’ve played around with the Canon EN22 is the most powerful for its size.  Eldon Shirey, Motorman, sent me a sack full of motors the test over about an 8 year period.  I tested about 30 or so and only ones I recommended to him for HO locomotives were the Canon EN22 and the Faulhaber 2224RS.  The 2224RS worked the best for general operational performance driven with a decoder, the Canon EN22 had more power.   The 2224RS is pricy, $45 at the time.  The 2224RS were not new in the box but didn’t look like they had been used.  I bought 6 of the 2224RS motors and they are in my Rivarossi articulateds.  He got the Canon EN22 direct from Canon and charged $20 for one.

 

I stumbled onto the EN22-R11N1B accidently at BG-Micro for $1.19 about 10 years ago.  I bought 35 from BG-Micro over about 4 months, should have bought everyone they had for that price.

 

Stevetx mentioned the Mabuchi SF-266SA: 18mm X 18mm 7200RPM  in this post above and after a couple of hours of research I ordered a pair to test.  The Specs are pretty close to the Canon EN22.

 

Mabuchi Specs

https://ssl4.eir-parts.net/doc/6592/ir_material12/69981/00.pdf

 

Canon DC Micro Motor Specs

http://www.dynetics.eu/media/2604/dc-micro-motor_e-2016.pdf

 

The only spec I see that’s somewhat close is the Power, 1.4 Watts for the EN22 and 1 Watt for the Mabuchi.  My thoughts are the Canon at 1.4 Watts has power to spare so I’m hoping the 1 Watt Mabuchi will work.

 

This is a pretty good info site for an ME.

 

https://www.micromo.com/technical-library/dc-motor-tutorials/motor-calculations

 

The SF-266SA motors are on a slow boat from China with an October delivery date.

 

I will post my results after I put the SF-226SA through the Mel tests.  I’m more than sure a pair in a HO articulated will work great.

 

EDIT:  I forgot one.

 

I did test a 12 volt 8900RPM Philips 9904 that had gobs of power, I geared it down to close to 5000 RPM and it is very good but Motorman couldn’t get them in bulk.

 

 

This one is in a Rivarossi Y6B.

 

Mel

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

[gdelmoro]

Hi all, FINALLY, after moving, some health issues and the rebuild of my layout in a new home I'm ready to DCC my 1980's Rivarossi Y6b.  

I purchased a can motor as Mel recommended but I'm stuck on how to isolate the motor and decoder. Seems both front and rear trucks are screwed into the led weight as is the original motor.  Easy enough to isolate the motor but I'm not sure how to isolate the trucks (they pick up rail power). 

Anyone have a how to idea?

[RR_Mel]

The SF-266SA motor terminals are isolated from its case or housing, no problem.  

Mel


 
My Model Railroad   
http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/
 
Bakersfield, California
 
Turned 84 in July, aging is definitely not for wimps.

[gdelmoro]

So it's just the motor that needs to be isolated?

[RR_Mel]

It’s the decoder that needs to be isolated.  All the connections to the decoder except rail power need to be isolated.  With an isolated motor such as the FS-266SA when you connect the grey and orange wires from the decoder it is safe.  




Mel

 
My Model Railroad   
http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/
 
Bakersfield, California
 
Turned 84 in July, aging is definitely not for wimps.

[selector]

I was cautioned about ten years ago not to say that the motor had to be isolated, but that the brushes have to be isolated.  I think this is what Mel means, that the motor he specifies is safe because it has an isolated brush...?  The feed up from the rails must go directly to the decoder, and then the decoder apportions what it gets to its components/drives for the locomotive's other parts to use.  The motor brushes can't get any other power but from the decoder's wire designed to drive the motor.  Often that means isolating the entire motor from any contact with the frame.

[gdelmoro]

RR_Mel

It’s the decoder that needs to be isolated.  All the connections to the decoder except rail power need to be isolated.  With an isolated motor such as the FS-266SA when you connect the grey and orange wires from the decoder it is safe.  




Mel

 
My Model Railroad   
http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/
 
Bakersfield, California
 
Turned 84 in July, aging is definitely not for wimps.

 

 

Ok that's great. Easy enough to do.  One last question, how did you mount the motor? 

[gdelmoro]

Thanks Selector, I didn't catch that.

[RR_Mel]

I mount all my motors with Amazing Goop, been using it for over 10 years.



Mel


 
My Model Railroad   
http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/
 
Bakersfield, California
 
Turned 84 in July, aging is definitely not for wimps.