I think it's great that standard DC wiring is still alive and well. There's still locomotives and other stuff available to those of us who choose DC over DCC. The coolest reason for DC, for me, is that it is slightly more in-depth of a wiring job to wire your tracks with DC. I could be wrong, and probably am, but isn't DCC simply one big giant block with only the insulated gaps necessary to prevent shorts? also, with DC, when set up with what one book I have calls Engineer Control for dual cabs, there is a small amount of skill neccessary to flip all those block selector switches at the right time and it excersizes the memory (which with ABI or BI as a disability is something necessary even at the young-ish age of 30) to keep the selector switches turned off when you're off the block now for your buddy's train. I dread being cheap but I do live on a budget because of my disability, and even though I spend most of my $550/mo paycheck on train stuff, it's still nice to know that there is goodies for those of us that spend as much as we can but are limited to a budget. Last plus I'd mention though, like if I'm being cheap just tell me and I'll edit this post.
What are your favourite parts of DC? Is wiring/electronics your fave part of MRing like it is mine? Is it possible to have some DC blocks, but then your loco on a one unit train transfers onto a future DCC block? Let's celebrate DC here!!!
JJRRIs it possible to have some DC blocks, but then your loco on a one unit train transfers onto a future DCC block?
No, you can't mix DC and DCC on one layout simultaneously with a train crossing from one to the other.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
Very true, but I do run both DCC and DC on the same layout, but I have to separate them and of course I can't run both at the same time. I have a Prodogy System for DCC and it runs through a DPDT switch, therefore I can switch to DC when I want run some beautiful old steam and engines that I am not going to convert to DCC. My DC is an MRC Master Control 20.
Of course I remove the DCC engine when I switch to DC, no rewiring, but I like the idea that I can run either or on the same layout, the DPDT switch keeps them separated.
My wiring is simple, two bus lines run under the layout, every three or four feet I run leads to the track above on the layout so I have good electrical contact. I use the same wiring for DCC, all I have to do is switch the DPDT.
My trains run well on both but there is a difference with DCC, especially with my Broadway Limited Steamer, it starts off slow with good chuff's and the other sounds work really well. The same with my Proto 2000 F Unit that the has a QSI sound decoder, it sounds great.
Many of my older engines do really well, and I like running them, sometimes I like quiet with the DC.
Robert Sylvester
Newberry-Columbia, Line, SC
Unless someone invents a magic loco, sound on DC will just never quite work. ANd by "magic loco" I don't mean just a way to control the sound other than a signal through the track like DCC (MRC has done that, with a handheld RF remote to trigger sounds when the loco is running on DC), I mean some magic way to get the soudn circuit powered without the loco moving, with no power to the rails.
With a sound loco on DC track, if you want the sounds to come on before the loco moves, there has to be sufficient voltage on the tracks to run the sound circuit, while the motor is not permitted to get any power. So you end up having to turn the throttle up half way or more and the sounds start, whereas that other DC loco you have with no sound is already moving along at a decent speed. More throttle, and finally the sound loco starts to move. You now have the entire speed range fo the loco, from stop to full throttle, in less than half of the actual throttle knob's range of motion.
Bottom line, if you want to enjoy sound locos, you pretty much need DCC. It is perfectly safe to set up your layout to connect either DC or DCC to the entire layout, one at a time. It is not safe to have part of the layout DC and part DCC, separated only by gaps in the rail. Not interested in sound? Use whatever you are comfortable with. Sound and DC is just a non-starter.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
JJRRLet's celebrate DC here!!!
Needing a DC support group?
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Randy--
Talk about throwing gasoline on a fire.
The TRUTH is that Rapido's sound in the Alco FA's is every bit as good in plain DC as it is in DCC. There is absolutely NO difference in quality, though certain features can only be accessed in DCC. Many features can be accessed in plain DC especially with the MRC Tech 6.
However, I am not somebody that needs sound, and my model railroad is currently entirely plain DC and no sound.
I use power routing turnouts, so I don't need to worry about blocks at all.
riogrande5761Needing a DC support group?
I guess so, I never thought DC had "died" at all.
As far as sound, I was never, or am I now, a big fan of sound. I have 2 locos with sound, and the 2005 Bachman Spectrum 2-8-0 is the best, the new Gevo with sound is just a bunch indistinguishable noise to me, I rarely have it on. At least I have figured out what button to use to turn off that annoying compresser noise.
Mike.
My You Tube
PRR8259 Many features can be accessed in plain DC especially with the MRC Tech 6.
Agreed but,IMHO sound is better in T-6 DCC mode. Again and IMHO for a one horse layout the T-6 is a lot of DCC/Sound.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
JJRRWhat are your favourite parts of DC?
.
I will only ever build in DC.
I prefer DC control because I am familiar with how it works, I can assemble it without much thought, I am good a troubleshooting the system, and for my desires it is just a better fit for the goals I have in the hobby.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
To each his own, but to me, favoring DC over DCC because the wiring is more complicated is like buying a new car with "stick shift" because it is more challenging to drive in heavy traffic than automatic shift.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain like buying a new car with "stick shift" because it is more challenging to drive in heavy traffic
That is one of the reasons my wife thinks I am nuts! My trucks are always stick shift, and I do enjoy driving them, even in heavy traffic.
Maybe that is why I stick with DC!
PRR8259 Randy-- Talk about throwing gasoline on a fire. The TRUTH is that Rapido's sound in the Alco FA's is every bit as good in plain DC as it is in DCC. There is absolutely NO difference in quality, though certain features can only be accessed in DCC. Many features can be accessed in plain DC especially with the MRC Tech 6. However, I am not somebody that needs sound, and my model railroad is currently entirely plain DC and no sound. I use power routing turnouts, so I don't need to worry about blocks at all.
Has nothign at all to do with quality, and I never said such a thing. Of course the sound quality is goign to be the same, it plays through the same chip, through the same amplifier, through the same speaker, from the same sound file, regardless if the loco is runnign on DC or DCC.
But Rapido locos are no more 'magic' than any other sound loco that can run on both DC and DCC, they STILL need the DC power to be cranked up to get the power to run the sound before the motor starts spinning, or else you have a loco that is rolling down the track silently until you get above a certain speed. This can;t be helped, you need a power/control system that has a constant voltage ont he tracks for this to work where you can have the loco sittign completely still with the throttle at stop and the sounds still playing.
As for stick shifts - I refuse to buy a car with an automatic transmission until the point my left leg and/or right arm stop working. I hate driving automatics. If everyone drove manual, there would eb less "staring at the cell phone" accidents because you really can;t do that AND drive the car at the same time when you have to shift. And no, I do not have some sort of power lifter legs, driving in traffic is not a problem, except for all the othe rmorons who need to inch along bumper to bumper. All you need to do is leave some space and you can coast in first, you don't have to keep clutchign and declutching just because traffic is backed up.
ANd Havign been an 'electrical' guy nearly my entire life, I still don;t get this "DC is easier than DCC" thing. DCC wirign is EXACTLY THE SAME as wiring DC for a single train, single power pack. Anything DC for more than that is more complex by definition. There is zero need to understand the nitty gritty details goign on inside the DCC system, all you need to know is the exact same thign you need to know for DC - there are two wires, two rails, the two must never touch or you have a short, and there needs to be a complete path from the power source, to the locomotive, and back for things to work. What's so complicated? OK, so the 10 train DC system is just 10X the exact same thign, layed together. That's STILL a lot more wiring than a DCC system that can run 10 trains on the same layout.And a big giant club-size layout with DCC? Well, it's the same concept, multiples of otherwise the exact same thing to get enough power to the layout. Section A is like section B is like section C, and so on - no different than an advanced DC cab control system being multiples of the same circuit repeated as many times as needed to get the required number of cabs.
This is a big myth that needs to die. Some prefer DC, some prefer DCC, but wiring one is not more complex than wiring the other.
SeeYou190 richhotrain like buying a new car with "stick shift" because it is more challenging to drive in heavy traffic. That is one of the reasons my wife thinks I am nuts! My trucks are always stick shift, and I do enjoy driving them, even in heavy traffic.. Maybe that is why I stick with DC!. -Kevin
richhotrain like buying a new car with "stick shift" because it is more challenging to drive in heavy traffic.
That is one of the reasons my wife thinks I am nuts! My trucks are always stick shift, and I do enjoy driving them, even in heavy traffic..
Maybe that is why I stick with DC!.
Ok, good DC multi train operation is way more complex to wire than DCC.
I have long said, if you want sound you need DCC, I don't want sound.......
Signaling and CTC raises the wiring complexity of both DC and DCC to a "special" level. All wiring advantages of DCC go out the window at that point, no matter what kind of detection and signaling you use.
GOOD DC advanced cab control can integrate a lot of features and create a user interface experiance that requires no more user input than DCC.
BUT, it takes planning......and knowing what you want to do.
Another issue is cost. If I consider all my givens and druthers, for my goals, with all its complexity and planning, my DC advanced cab control is way cheaper to build for the layout I want.
And I have this list of features:
Wireless radio throttles.
Walk around operation with turnout control/cab control at local towers with no "doubling back".
OR
CTC with full dispatcher control of turnouts and signals.
Automatic Train Control - run a red signal, your train stops. It does not get picked up by someone else's throttle.
One button route control of turnouts which can be controlled locally or on the CTC panel.
Constant lighting, even on "stopped" trains.
None of these features would be "easier" with DCC. But I would have to buy and install 145 decoders.......
So there you have it, still DC here, no reason to change.
Sheldon
SeeYou190 richhotrain like buying a new car with "stick shift" because it is more challenging to drive in heavy traffic That is one of the reasons my wife thinks I am nuts! My trucks are always stick shift, and I do enjoy driving them, even in heavy traffic. Maybe that is why I stick with DC! -Kevin
And getting old and stuck in your ways, with a little dash of fear of the unknown?
Did Digitrax traumatize you? Personally I have found it not intuitive and if I end up keeping and using my Digitrax Chief, I'll need a bunch of cheat sheets.
Personally, even though it's failry easy to wire a DC layout, what with the blocks etc, I have never liked having to control blocks; I'd rather control trains.
As for stick shifts, my first two cars were sticks and I've driven many since then, but now that I'm getting old and lazy, I do like automatics better.
PRR8259 Randy-- Talk about throwing gasoline on a fire. The TRUTH is that Rapido's sound in the Alco FA's is every bit as good in plain DC as it is in DCC. There is absolutely NO difference in quality, though certain features can only be accessed in DCC.
The TRUTH is that Rapido's sound in the Alco FA's is every bit as good in plain DC as it is in DCC. There is absolutely NO difference in quality, though certain features can only be accessed in DCC.
And there lies the rub, accessing features and controlling them. No gasoline, just reality. Sheldon confirms as well.
riogrande5761 SeeYou190 richhotrain like buying a new car with "stick shift" because it is more challenging to drive in heavy traffic That is one of the reasons my wife thinks I am nuts! My trucks are always stick shift, and I do enjoy driving them, even in heavy traffic. Maybe that is why I stick with DC! -Kevin And getting old and stuck in your ways, with a little dash of fear of the unknown? Did Digitrax traumatize you? Personally I have found it not intuitive and if I end up keeping and using my Digitrax Chief, I'll need a bunch of cheat sheets. Personally, even though it's failry easy to wire a DC layout, what with the blocks etc, I have never liked having to control blocks; I'd rather control trains. As for stick shifts, my first two cars were sticks and I've driven many since then, but now that I'm getting old and lazy, I do like automatics better.
I control the trains with CTC, the CTC system controls the blocks and the signals.
The same one button on the CTC panel that turns the signal green, powers the block with the correct throttle.
Stick shift cars, only if they have 300 or 400 hp, rear wheel drive, and were built before 1970. Like this one:
Some little Honda you paddle along with the gear shift lever, no thanks.
But my 2015 FORD FLEX is the best of both worlds, six speed auto/shiftable, paddle shifters, 365 hp, twin turbos, 0-60 in 5.5 sec, 15 sec 1/4 mile, all wheel drive and room for seven.
riogrande5761As for stick shifts, my first two cars were sticks and I've driven many since then, but now that I'm getting old and lazy, I do like automatics better.
Since switching to automatics I have not dumped a single cup of coffee in my lap.
Since switching to DCC I have not heard "Hey! Hold on! You've got my train".
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
carl425 riogrande5761 As for stick shifts, my first two cars were sticks and I've driven many since then, but now that I'm getting old and lazy, I do like automatics better. Since switching to automatics I have not dumped a single cup of coffee in my lap. Since switching to DCC I have not heard "Hey! Hold on! You've got my train".
riogrande5761 As for stick shifts, my first two cars were sticks and I've driven many since then, but now that I'm getting old and lazy, I do like automatics better.
I don't drink coffee.......my Dr Pepper is in a cup holder with a straw......even as the FLEX throws me back in my seat.
And, as explained above, on my DC layout you cannot over run your block.....your train just stops. And guess what, that particular feature is actually a free benefit of a particular wiring approach. It does not require one extra piece of wire, and not one extra relay contact......
1965 called, it wants its "Common Rail or Not" argument back.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
riogrande5761Did Digitrax traumatize you?
No. I just am comfortable with DC, and it meets all my needs, and I do not have to modify anything I already own. For me, it is the correct choice.
I rented a Nissan Maxima this week, and it has an amazing feature. In heavy traffic it locks onto the car in front of you, caravans with it, and you do not need to do anything! Once you get over the initial terror of not knowing if the car will stop in time, it is nothing to drive it in traffic... literally nothing! I am loving this car.
Bayfield Transfer Railway 1965 called, it wants its "Common Rail or Not" argument back.
That's easy. All the best DC throttles today will pretty much require that you not use common rail.
And not using common rail can provide other benefits, like my "free" automatic train control sections between blocks.
I'm a solo operator and have never been interested in running more than one train at a time, so opted for common rail's simple wiring.I use a handheld walk-around throttle with PWM output sufficient to handle the multiple locomotives required to move trains over the many grades on my partially double-decked layout.
By running trains sequentially, one can pass opposing trains or overtake ones running in the same direction, as there are passing tracks in every town on the layout.
The layout represents branchline-type operations, and an operating session might be only ten minutes or perhaps ten hours, and it simply carries on from one session to the next.
As for vehicles, I started with "three-on-the-tree", and while there have been a couple of short-lived automatics along the way, I much prefer stickshift. I've had small low horsepower cars that were a blast to drive, high horsepower cars that never lost a drag race (but were cop magnets), and I wouldn't trade my 15 year old Mazda for any car in the world, especially new ones.Yeah, I'm stuck in the past and still lovin' it.
Wayne
Ok just back to RR and 35 year can some one tell me why no run DC & DCC on a blocked dual loop dual train setup.
Sound? Except for the newest subway cars with their distinctive musical pitches zccelerating and decelerating, the only sounds you need is the roar and screach of the wheels against the rails. It is well pronounced in videos of my layout. Makes my want to mount microphones and speakers under the layout to amplify the sounds as trains rqce through the curves.
ROARING
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
JJRR I think it's great that standard DC wiring is still alive and well. What are your favourite parts of DC? Is wiring/electronics your fave part of MRing like it is mine? Is it possible to have some DC blocks, but then your loco on a one unit train transfers onto a future DCC block? Let's celebrate DC here!!!
I think it's great that standard DC wiring is still alive and well.
jrpjimOk just back to RR and 35 year can some one tell me why no run DC & DCC on a blocked dual loop dual train setup.
I think in theory it could work. Have DC throttle attached to "CAB A", and DCC throttle attached to "CAB B". Use DPDT C.O. toggled to select which throttles control each block, and you could have success.
Until... something goes wrong. A train operating on either DC (CAB A) or DCC (CAB B) will have a terrible experience when it crosses from a DC block into a DCC block, or the reverse scenario. much worse than a DC locomotive crossing into a block assigned to another DC cab.
I said "when", not "if". If you build a layout like this, it will happen.
I would not try it, but you might be more brave and determined than I am.
The only way to make it safe would be some kind of sequential selector that always guarantees a dead block between the DC and DCC block assignments.
At this point it would be easier just to install decoders in all you locomotives.
Then there are some of us who don't have the budget to setup a DCC operation. (Of course having 25 or so engines also has a lot to do with it as well.)
I started many years ago with DC & found it OK for one or two operators but now having gone down the DCC path, we find it far easier to drive 4 trains in my main station at the same time & not have to get too involved with wiring to allow any of the 4 controllers to access any section of trackage.
IMO, DC is pefect for lone drivers/engineers but gets complicetd for multiple drivers/engineers in the same station at the same time.
Ron
FRRYKidThen there are some of us who don't have the budget to setup a DCC operation.
There are also many of us who have the budget, but stick with DC because we prefer it.
sol but now having gone down the DCC path, we find it far easier to drive 4 trains in my main station at the same time
Absolutely! I cannot imagine 4 train operation with DC. I am building my railroad to run it by myself, so DC will be fine with me.