SeeYou190 rrinker A DPDT center off (must be center off - that gives you an electrically dead option in the middle) switch works fine. It's either set to DC, set to DCC< or completely off, there's no way for the DC to touch DCC . After reading this, I think an Onan OTPC transfer switch is the only safe switching option. They are set up for dual inputs, 480 volt three phase from both Utility Line and Stand By Generator. It is impossible for the output to be connecteed to both at once. . The built in lockout mechanism is rated for transfering loads at full power, so durability will not be an issue. . If it works for office buiding line power, it should be able to handle DC and DCC safely. . . -Kevin (tounge in cheek) .
rrinker A DPDT center off (must be center off - that gives you an electrically dead option in the middle) switch works fine. It's either set to DC, set to DCC< or completely off, there's no way for the DC to touch DCC
.
After reading this, I think an Onan OTPC transfer switch is the only safe switching option. They are set up for dual inputs, 480 volt three phase from both Utility Line and Stand By Generator. It is impossible for the output to be connecteed to both at once.
The built in lockout mechanism is rated for transfering loads at full power, so durability will not be an issue.
If it works for office buiding line power, it should be able to handle DC and DCC safely.
-Kevin (tounge in cheek)
Well, there would definitely be no issued with power loss due to contact resistance. ANd should one EVER wear out, there is a spare contact on both sides.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
ATLANTIC CENTRALBut it does have relevance to your suggestion of running DCC locos on DC?
No, not exactly. What I typed was:
"In my opinion either go DCC and remove the DC power option, or stay with DC since most DCC locos will run (maybe not as well) on DC."
And that was to address the folks who want to go back and forth between DC and DCC. I would sort of think that those individuals who are asking the "how do I go both ways" question are not using the more sophistocated DC power sources, but I could be mistaken
maxman ATLANTIC CENTRAL And you have taken that survey? No I haven't. But I'm not sure I see the point of doing so. The population of people who would need to be surveyed would be those who would wish to use DCC locos with sound on either DC or DCC; or want to go back and forth between DC and DCC (which I think was the original question, but I'd have to go back and look). I don't think that surveying people who are DC only, have no interest in DCC, or remove DCC decoders has much relevance to the swapping back and forth thing.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL And you have taken that survey?
No I haven't. But I'm not sure I see the point of doing so. The population of people who would need to be surveyed would be those who would wish to use DCC locos with sound on either DC or DCC; or want to go back and forth between DC and DCC (which I think was the original question, but I'd have to go back and look).
I don't think that surveying people who are DC only, have no interest in DCC, or remove DCC decoders has much relevance to the swapping back and forth thing.
But it does have relevance to your suggestion of running DCC locos on DC?
Which is particularly troublesome with sound locos, where the locos do not even move until half throttle, even with pure DC throttles that are friendly to dual mode decoders.
Sheldon
duplicate
ATLANTIC CENTRALAnd you have taken that survey?
SeeYou190 My only dual mode decoder works with a Kato power pack just fine. . I only have one locomotive with a dual mode decoder. I have never tried it on a Troller Autopulse power pack because I fear damaging it, and I accidentally glued the tender shell shut. . If I damage the decoder, I am up a creek. . -Kevin .
My only dual mode decoder works with a Kato power pack just fine.
I only have one locomotive with a dual mode decoder. I have never tried it on a Troller Autopulse power pack because I fear damaging it, and I accidentally glued the tender shell shut.
If I damage the decoder, I am up a creek.
-Kevin
Well, I have to admit, I've never touched a KATO power pack........
Living the dream.
Kevin,
You use Troller power packs right? Have you ever tried to run a dual mode decoder DCC loco with one of those?
I suspect the result would not be good.
Dr Wayne uses pulse power throttles, I use pulse power throttles, maybe we need a survey........
I think Mel has a great approach for those not wanting to convert their whole fleet of locos to DCC.
Apart from that, I agree, I would be all in one way or the other.
That's why I remove those pesky decoders.
Back in the day, those motion only Bachmann decoders sold real well on Ebay. I often sold them in three packs for about $40.00
rrinkerA DPDT center off (must be center off - that gives you an electrically dead option in the middle) switch works fine. It's either set to DC, set to DCC< or completely off, there's no way for the DC to touch DCC
maxman ATLANTIC CENTRAL Most dual mode decoders won't run at all on the DC throttles I use.......... Most DC users don't use the throttles you use...........
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Most dual mode decoders won't run at all on the DC throttles I use..........
Most DC users don't use the throttles you use...........
And you have taken that survey?
They may not use the Aristo throttles, but a great many who have stayed with DC use advanced throttles with pulse width modulated motor control, or other forms of pulse power, that are not compatible with dual mode decoders.
ATLANTIC CENTRALMost dual mode decoders won't run at all on the DC throttles I use..........
maxman In my opinion either go DCC and remove the DC power option, or stay with DC since most DCC locos will run (maybe not as well) on DC. This business of going back and forth between DCC and DC sounds like a problem waiting to happen. Reminds me of the guy who took such large steps to save his $20 shoes that he split his $50 pants.
In my opinion either go DCC and remove the DC power option, or stay with DC since most DCC locos will run (maybe not as well) on DC.
This business of going back and forth between DCC and DC sounds like a problem waiting to happen. Reminds me of the guy who took such large steps to save his $20 shoes that he split his $50 pants.
Most dual mode decoders won't run at all on the DC throttles I use..........
RR_MelI’ve been running dual mode since I bought my DCC Prodigy in 2006 and I’ve never had any problems.
rrinkerYes, with 2 switches, and both DC and DCC connected, it's too easy to accidently turn on BOTH switches and that will absolutely fry something - probably the DCC system.
+1
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
Yes, with 2 switches, and both DC and DCC connected, it's too easy to accidently turn on BOTH switches and that will absolutely fry something - probably the DCC system. If you want to be able to use both, the best way is a mechanical means of preventing both from being connected. For example, a 2 pin connector ont he layout. ANd matching 2 pin plugs connected to the DC power pack, and the DCC system. Only one or the other can be physically plugged in at a time, it's not possible to have both connected no matter how absent minded you get. A big old knife switch mentioned in the other thread is a good option - also not possible to have both systems connected. A DPDT center off (must be center off - that gives you an electrically dead option in the middle) switch works fine. It's either set to DC, set to DCC< or completely off, there's no way for the DC to touch DCC - that is the end goal, the two must NEVER come together, deliberately or accidently. Either run ALL DC, or ALL DCC. Never a mix.
Mel advised me to use connectors, not wall switches, I several single pole connectors, I guess I could one for each wire to turn on and off the power to the units, transformer and Prodigy DCC.
Robert Sylvester
Like Trevorsmith said, I did the same thing yesterday with my new Prodigy DCC system I installed. I thought about it and realized that if I just turn ON all of the blocks I would power the layout without having to re-wire anything. I then used two wall light swtches to control the power from my MRC power transformer and the DCC unit.
The power lines from the transformer go to one light switch with track leads attached go to the tracks and I did the same with the DCC unit attaching it to the other light switch, and it worked. All I have to do is turn off the transformer light switch and the DCC works, then visa versa with the DCC unit.
No complicated wiring and I just left the layout wiring alone but turned on all of the blocks for the DCC unit.
Newberry-Columbia Line
Newberry. SC
Like the concept of converting a loco to DCC there is pretty much no such thing as "can't be done". It's really a question of how complicated it will be. A layout with common rail DC is not a problem if it can be handle by a single DCC booster. It's adding multiple boosters where common rail becomes an issue, and even then - if you need 2 total booster, it means adding 2 gaps in the common rail and the connon rail bus. If common rail was not used and every block has gaps in both rails, it doesn't matter how many boosters you might need or how big the layout is, it's fairly simple. If you already have a complex DC control system in place, it may or may not be difficult.
If there are a lot of reverse loops, it just means more autoreversers. The same toggle switch for DC will actually work, or it can be replaced by an autoreverser, but because of the way reverse loops were handled in DC (the MAIN TRACK is switched to match the loop before the train re-enters) is the opposite of what is usually done in DCC (the LOOP is reversed while the train is on it - changing the polarity under a running DCC loco does nothing), it would mean the entire main portion of the layout would be driven through the autoreverser so current capability could be an issue, plus this would not work with multiple trains using multiple reverse loops at the same time - for a small, basic layout this might not matter, but most anything more complex, an autoreverser per reversing section is the better way to go.
I would say that the possibility of converting an existing DC layout to DCC would depend upon how it was built.
There has been some discussion of power feeder sizes and common rail. These are certainly factors.
My next (and final) layout will be DC, and it purposely will be very hard to convert to DCC. I have acquired all the old style "DCC UN-friendly" Walthers/Shinohara code 83 turnouts I need, and I will use power routing from my switch machines to turn track power on and off. This will make any conversion of the layout to DCC very difficult.
I am well informed and experienced with both systems, and the decision to remain with DC only is informed and thought out.
If you have any uncertainty, I would be sure to build a DC layout so it could easily be converted to DCC later. No common rail, 14 gauge or larger bus, DPDT switches to power sidings, etc. Then, to convert to DCC, switch all DPDTs to "CAB A" and turn everything on... good to go.
That will not be possible on my layout.
BigDaddy ATLANTIC CENTRAL Well if Johniacono was not refering to the post by JGHowes returning to DC, what post was he refering too? Maybe the OP?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Well if Johniacono was not refering to the post by JGHowes returning to DC, what post was he refering too?
Maybe the OP?
Agred, that is possible, but his post is just "out there" with no real context other than the recent posts before it?
ATLANTIC CENTRALWell if Johniacono was not refering to the post by JGHowes returning to DC, what post was he refering too?
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
CGW121 ATLANTIC CENTRAL CGW121 That what automatic reversers are for. Digitrax makes one someone else does as well. I have a Digitrax one which has worked flawlessly for 5 years or so. Mike Auto reversers do not work with DC...... The question appears directed at the gentleman who gave up on converting to DCC and stayed with DC. Sheldon Well I replied to the post by Johniacono. NOWHERE did I mention dc opeation.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL CGW121 That what automatic reversers are for. Digitrax makes one someone else does as well. I have a Digitrax one which has worked flawlessly for 5 years or so. Mike Auto reversers do not work with DC...... The question appears directed at the gentleman who gave up on converting to DCC and stayed with DC. Sheldon
CGW121 That what automatic reversers are for. Digitrax makes one someone else does as well. I have a Digitrax one which has worked flawlessly for 5 years or so. Mike
That what automatic reversers are for. Digitrax makes one someone else does as well. I have a Digitrax one which has worked flawlessly for 5 years or so.
Mike
Auto reversers do not work with DC......
The question appears directed at the gentleman who gave up on converting to DCC and stayed with DC.
Well I replied to the post by Johniacono. NOWHERE did I mention dc opeation.
Well if Johniacono was not refering to the post by JGHowes returning to DC, what post was he refering too?
wjstix ATLANTIC CENTRAL Just a reminder, and note to the newbies, I run DC, multi train operation, with radio throttles, no toggles to flip (not even for reverse loops), with signals, detection, automatic train control, CTC and more. It is complex to build? Sure. Is it complex to use? No. OK, but that's kind of the point here. Yes you can, through a lot of effort and hard work, create a DC layout that is easy to use. Building the same layout with the same ease of use, but as a DCC layout, is much easier. DC wiring is more complicated than DCC wiring, especially if you're planning on running multiple trains on the same track, like a busy single-track mainline with passing sidings.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Just a reminder, and note to the newbies, I run DC, multi train operation, with radio throttles, no toggles to flip (not even for reverse loops), with signals, detection, automatic train control, CTC and more. It is complex to build? Sure. Is it complex to use? No.
OK, but that's kind of the point here. Yes you can, through a lot of effort and hard work, create a DC layout that is easy to use. Building the same layout with the same ease of use, but as a DCC layout, is much easier. DC wiring is more complicated than DCC wiring, especially if you're planning on running multiple trains on the same track, like a busy single-track mainline with passing sidings.
But again, that is not universally true.
If you build a DCC layout with CTC, signaling and route control turnouts equal to mine, it will be pretty much equally complex in terms of wiring and equipment.
Relay based or solid state based, DC or DCC, CTC, signaling and route control interlocking turnouts take a lot of hardware and work.
It just so happens that doing it in DC allows you to intergrate the cab selection process and the turnout control process with the signaling/CTC process, making it so you get all four just a little more wiring than you would have with DCC that includes signals, route control interlocking turnouts, and CTC.
Now, if you take signals and CTC out of the picture, sure it is easier to wire a layout for easy operation of multiple trains with DCC than with DC - but that's not apples to apples against my system.
I run double track, but it is signaled and CTC controlled for bi directional operation on all tracks, so I can run like a single track line. No more complicated to run a train around the layout than anything else I do.
NO MATTER WHAT, CTC/signaling is a similar extra layer of wiring and equipment, DC or DCC.
But my way saves the cost of 140 decoders, and only gives up a few small features.
Those features may be important to others, and they should use DCC, but for me those features are not worth $8,000. Yes $8,000, that is what it would cost to convert my layout to DCC.
I have no interest in "settling for less" in other areas to have DCC.
With DCC my operational plan would require:
140 decoders
8-10 wireless throttles and necessary equipment
zone equipment for 4-6 zones
Add that up from any DCC brand you like........
My turnout controls, signaling and CTC could simply remain, it is DCC compatible.
But I would actually loose some features I have now if I converted to DCC......
Stix, simple questions:
Do you have detection, CTC and signals?
How do you control turnouts?
Do you power frogs?
ATLANTIC CENTRALJust a reminder, and note to the newbies, I run DC, multi train operation, with radio throttles, no toggles to flip (not even for reverse loops), with signals, detection, automatic train control, CTC and more. It is complex to build? Sure. Is it complex to use? No.