My current DC layout has many blocks and I want to convert to DCC, my question is: When adding bus wires and feeder wires do I still need to add feeders every 3 feet or so, and if adding feeders won't this cancel my block sysyem or will it make any difference because with DCC I don't need blocks.
RR_Mel is going to be your man because he is at the intersectionality of electrical diversity and inclusion.
Modern babble speak aside, he concluded that wiring for DCC was a mistake and reverted to his DC wiring which is capable of running either DC or DCC, but not both at the same time.
DCC does need adequate wire gauge over distance, so if you DC layout is wired with telephone wire, it may need upgraded.
Blocks are useful if you want to park locos and lighted cars and not have them gobble up electricity or make noise and light. For instance the Bachmann sound value locos insist on starting up when you power up the track and there is no way to deprogram them.
Blocks are not needed for preventing train A crashing into train B in DCC if you have engineers paying attention.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
When I converted from DC to DCC many years ago I just switched all the blocks to ON and swapped the two wires from the controller to my new Lenz DCC controller.
Worked fine with no additions or alterations to the wiring.
trevorsmith3489When I converted from DC to DCC many years ago I just switched all the blocks to ON and swapped the two wires from the controller to my new Lenz DCC controller.
Same here, except mine was Digitrax. I ran that way for about a year before getting into a "DCC upgrade" plan.
IF your original DC wiring is "robust" in other words, the wire gauge sizes are reasonably sized, and your block toggle switches reliable, you won't have any problems.
Many "convertees" myself included, later removed the block switches and added additional feeders to the track where needed. Much of the "block" wiring was removed just to simplify the neatness of the wiring under the layout. In some places I had wiring for five DC cabs.
Sure, if you were building from scratch you could "design for DCC" but there's no reason why a well-wired DC layout won't run DCC just as well.
All my turnouts were the "pre 'DCC-Friendly'" Walthers Shinohara code 83s and they only rarely caused any electrical problems.
By upgrading small areas of the layout at a time I could still keep trains running and down-time to a minimum while I made the "improvements" to the buss and feeder system.
As others have pointed out, don't be tempted to keep part of the layout on DC control while having DCC as well. This is a recipe for disaster. One or the other — not both!
Hope that helps, Ed
I built my lay out for both, as I started in DC, and then went to DCC as my decoder equiped fleet grew. I can still easily go back forth from DC to DCC.
I wired it with a buss and feeders, but for the "blocks", I gapped both rails, and didn't use the "common rail" DC method of wiring.
I guess it depends on how you initially wired your lay out.
The spacing for feeders is up to you. I kept the "blocks", and I ran at least two feeders to each block. As in DC cab control, each of my blocks are seperately controlled, so I can turn off any block I need to.
Mike.
My You Tube
The club I belonged to had four throttle and fourteen blocks and one reverse loop.
We switched all blocks on and eventually ran #14 buss and used the block feeders. We kept them to about six to eight inches long. We had common rail. We put in a reverser for the reverse loop.
We tried DC and DCC in a few blocks before the #14 buss but fried the DCC booster with a cross over. No more. All DCC.
Edit.
I was just reminded, we did add feeders to the common rail every few feet. Something I often forget to mention. I should remember. I spent a lot of time under the layout on a creeper with a raised back and a cup of coffee.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
If Your layout was wired for common rail, (one rail insulated) it would be a good idea to add feeders to the common rail, not to rely on rail joiners. Your gauge wire should be good enough, unless you used anything smaller than 22 for a medium size layout. No need to add any bus wires.
If Your layout was wired with both rails insulated, You should be good to go without adding any wires. Just a matter of removing the DC power packs and replacing with a DCC system. You will know if you have to add any more feeders when up and running, if trains slow down in some area's. No need to get involved with adding all kinds of feeders until you need them. Set all block switches or controls to one Cab like A or B for DCC. If You want to keep the layout for use in DC and DCC, install a DPDT Center off toggle switch, in between the DC and DCC systems so you can only use one system at a time.
That is how My layout is set-up.......It is a 3 cab 46 block double mainline layout. Been in HO DC since 1950 when I was 8yrs, old. The layout in the last sentence has been working flawlessly since 1980.......it is My last.
Take Care!
Frank
Hello All,
How big a layout are we talking about?
What scale?
How many blocks do you have now and how are they currently controlled; Atlas switches, DPDT, something else?
What gage of wire are you using now to power the DC blocks?
I wired 16 blocks on my 4'x8' HO pike through terminal strips to Atlas controllers with two cabs with 20ga stranded wire.
When I converted to DCC I harvested a lot of wire and insulating rail joiners.
With the terminal block wiring and the size of my pike I kept the 20ga feeders to each block.
The terminal strips are centrally located so each feeder run is approximately the same with no run over three feet in length.
I am in the process of soldering most of the rail joiners, because I used sectional track rather than flex track.
Also I have no under pike access so an around the layout bus is not feasible.
I run all of my wiring through automotive flex tubing imbedded into the 1-inch foam, similar to prototypical utilities.
The more specific information you can give the fine folks on these forums the better they can assist in answering your questions.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
If your current layout has both rails insulated between each block, you don't need to do any additional wiring for DCC. If your layout works well now in DC, it will work well on DCC. Just replace one of your DC power packs with a DCC system - the two wires now connected to the power packs variable DC output goes to the DCC system instead.
Even in pre-DCC days I was very much against common rail - I built plans from the Atlas books but I NEVER wired them common rail, always BOTH tracks insulated and 2 wires to the blocks.
But either way - as long as there are multiple feeders to the common side, or it's a VERY small layout, just hook the DCC system in place of one DC cab and throw all the block toggles to that cab. Disconenct the second (or other) DC cabs though - you do not EVER want to mix DC and DCC, even accidently. Somethign will fry, most likely the DCC system. The only safe way to support both is either a plugin system or a DPDT center off toggle so that one way, the entire layout is DCC and the other way, the entire layout is DC. Both at the same time is asking for trouble, all it takes is one loco crossing the gap and bridging a DC block to a DCC block.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
JGHowes My experience with DCC conversion was regrettably unsuccessful and I reverted back to DC. My 30 year-old layout is very large and complex, with many blocks, common rail, non-DCC friendly turnouts and double-slip crossovers, many locomotives running multiple lash-ups to power long trains over grades, and small gauge wiring over distances. Locomotives that ran perfectly on DC ran poorly if at all when DCC decoders were added. The only DCC I have now is a separate streetcar line running on city streets.
Welcome.
Well that is a bit of good news. Doing model railroding your way and having a good time. At least you understand a little about complexity DCC. If it was fairly easy as someone here as said there would not be so many questions in this forum.
Since he has a DC set, he used a DPDT switch.
That what automatic reversers are for. Digitrax makes one someone else does as well. I have a Digitrax one which has worked flawlessly for 5 years or so.
Mike
When our club converted to DCC about ten years ago we put a reverser on a reverse loop and a crossover. We use to run only in one direction when we ran DC. No need for the DPDT swich anymore.
richg1998At least you understand a little about complexity DCC. If it was fairly easy as someone here as said there would not be so many questions in this forum.
Actually, DCC is simpler than DC, but as with many things, it can seem complicated at first. Wiring up a large DC layout with multiple blocks and toggle switches and reverse loop switches is a lot harder than doing a DCC layout.
I think a big part of the problem is that because DCC offers so many options - things like setting decoder CVs for example - that people may get overwhelmed because they don't understand they are options, not requirements. If you buy a locomotive equipped with DCC and sound, you probably should change the ID no. of the decoder from 03 to a separate number...usually the number of the engine it's in. That will allow you to control each engine independent from your other engines. The rest - sound volumes, speed settings, horn or bell sound etc. - are pre-programmed at the factory. If you like the way everything is, just changing the ID is all you really need to do.
JohniaconoYes but what about reversing loops
Didn't you think there were reverse loops before DCC?
This stuff cracks me up.
DCC can be easier than DC, or it can be much harder. Goals, needs, layout size, loco fleet, all play a role.
All generalizations are false.......
I can see where a layout full of common rail and power routing turnouts could present some challenges to DCC.
Just a reminder, and note to the newbies, I run DC, multi train operation, with radio throttles, no toggles to flip (not even for reverse loops), with signals, detection, automatic train control, CTC and more.
It is complex to build? Sure. Is it complex to use? No. In fact, taking a train around my mainline involves about the same number of "data entries" (buttons to push, yes I use buttons, not toggles, and you are not stuck at one control panel) as a similar DCC layout would require.
If the Dispatcher is on duty, all you do is drive your train and obey the signals. If you run a red signal, does someone else take control of your train? No, you train simply stops....
Ok, back to your regularly scheduled DC vs DCC comments.
Sheldon
CGW121 That what automatic reversers are for. Digitrax makes one someone else does as well. I have a Digitrax one which has worked flawlessly for 5 years or so. Mike
Auto reversers do not work with DC......
The question appears directed at the gentleman who gave up on converting to DCC and stayed with DC.
ATLANTIC CENTRALJust a reminder, and note to the newbies, I run DC, multi train operation, with radio throttles, no toggles to flip (not even for reverse loops), with signals, detection, automatic train control, CTC and more. It is complex to build? Sure. Is it complex to use? No.
OK, but that's kind of the point here. Yes you can, through a lot of effort and hard work, create a DC layout that is easy to use. Building the same layout with the same ease of use, but as a DCC layout, is much easier. DC wiring is more complicated than DCC wiring, especially if you're planning on running multiple trains on the same track, like a busy single-track mainline with passing sidings.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL CGW121 That what automatic reversers are for. Digitrax makes one someone else does as well. I have a Digitrax one which has worked flawlessly for 5 years or so. Mike Auto reversers do not work with DC...... The question appears directed at the gentleman who gave up on converting to DCC and stayed with DC. Sheldon
Well I replied to the post by Johniacono. NOWHERE did I mention dc opeation.
wjstix ATLANTIC CENTRAL Just a reminder, and note to the newbies, I run DC, multi train operation, with radio throttles, no toggles to flip (not even for reverse loops), with signals, detection, automatic train control, CTC and more. It is complex to build? Sure. Is it complex to use? No. OK, but that's kind of the point here. Yes you can, through a lot of effort and hard work, create a DC layout that is easy to use. Building the same layout with the same ease of use, but as a DCC layout, is much easier. DC wiring is more complicated than DCC wiring, especially if you're planning on running multiple trains on the same track, like a busy single-track mainline with passing sidings.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Just a reminder, and note to the newbies, I run DC, multi train operation, with radio throttles, no toggles to flip (not even for reverse loops), with signals, detection, automatic train control, CTC and more. It is complex to build? Sure. Is it complex to use? No.
But again, that is not universally true.
If you build a DCC layout with CTC, signaling and route control turnouts equal to mine, it will be pretty much equally complex in terms of wiring and equipment.
Relay based or solid state based, DC or DCC, CTC, signaling and route control interlocking turnouts take a lot of hardware and work.
It just so happens that doing it in DC allows you to intergrate the cab selection process and the turnout control process with the signaling/CTC process, making it so you get all four just a little more wiring than you would have with DCC that includes signals, route control interlocking turnouts, and CTC.
Now, if you take signals and CTC out of the picture, sure it is easier to wire a layout for easy operation of multiple trains with DCC than with DC - but that's not apples to apples against my system.
I run double track, but it is signaled and CTC controlled for bi directional operation on all tracks, so I can run like a single track line. No more complicated to run a train around the layout than anything else I do.
NO MATTER WHAT, CTC/signaling is a similar extra layer of wiring and equipment, DC or DCC.
But my way saves the cost of 140 decoders, and only gives up a few small features.
Those features may be important to others, and they should use DCC, but for me those features are not worth $8,000. Yes $8,000, that is what it would cost to convert my layout to DCC.
I have no interest in "settling for less" in other areas to have DCC.
With DCC my operational plan would require:
140 decoders
8-10 wireless throttles and necessary equipment
zone equipment for 4-6 zones
Add that up from any DCC brand you like........
My turnout controls, signaling and CTC could simply remain, it is DCC compatible.
But I would actually loose some features I have now if I converted to DCC......
Stix, simple questions:
Do you have detection, CTC and signals?
How do you control turnouts?
Do you power frogs?
CGW121 ATLANTIC CENTRAL CGW121 That what automatic reversers are for. Digitrax makes one someone else does as well. I have a Digitrax one which has worked flawlessly for 5 years or so. Mike Auto reversers do not work with DC...... The question appears directed at the gentleman who gave up on converting to DCC and stayed with DC. Sheldon Well I replied to the post by Johniacono. NOWHERE did I mention dc opeation.
Well if Johniacono was not refering to the post by JGHowes returning to DC, what post was he refering too?
ATLANTIC CENTRALWell if Johniacono was not refering to the post by JGHowes returning to DC, what post was he refering too?
Maybe the OP?
BigDaddy ATLANTIC CENTRAL Well if Johniacono was not refering to the post by JGHowes returning to DC, what post was he refering too? Maybe the OP?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Well if Johniacono was not refering to the post by JGHowes returning to DC, what post was he refering too?
Agred, that is possible, but his post is just "out there" with no real context other than the recent posts before it?
I would say that the possibility of converting an existing DC layout to DCC would depend upon how it was built.
.
There has been some discussion of power feeder sizes and common rail. These are certainly factors.
My next (and final) layout will be DC, and it purposely will be very hard to convert to DCC. I have acquired all the old style "DCC UN-friendly" Walthers/Shinohara code 83 turnouts I need, and I will use power routing from my switch machines to turn track power on and off. This will make any conversion of the layout to DCC very difficult.
I am well informed and experienced with both systems, and the decision to remain with DC only is informed and thought out.
If you have any uncertainty, I would be sure to build a DC layout so it could easily be converted to DCC later. No common rail, 14 gauge or larger bus, DPDT switches to power sidings, etc. Then, to convert to DCC, switch all DPDTs to "CAB A" and turn everything on... good to go.
That will not be possible on my layout.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Like the concept of converting a loco to DCC there is pretty much no such thing as "can't be done". It's really a question of how complicated it will be. A layout with common rail DC is not a problem if it can be handle by a single DCC booster. It's adding multiple boosters where common rail becomes an issue, and even then - if you need 2 total booster, it means adding 2 gaps in the common rail and the connon rail bus. If common rail was not used and every block has gaps in both rails, it doesn't matter how many boosters you might need or how big the layout is, it's fairly simple. If you already have a complex DC control system in place, it may or may not be difficult.
If there are a lot of reverse loops, it just means more autoreversers. The same toggle switch for DC will actually work, or it can be replaced by an autoreverser, but because of the way reverse loops were handled in DC (the MAIN TRACK is switched to match the loop before the train re-enters) is the opposite of what is usually done in DCC (the LOOP is reversed while the train is on it - changing the polarity under a running DCC loco does nothing), it would mean the entire main portion of the layout would be driven through the autoreverser so current capability could be an issue, plus this would not work with multiple trains using multiple reverse loops at the same time - for a small, basic layout this might not matter, but most anything more complex, an autoreverser per reversing section is the better way to go.
Like Trevorsmith said, I did the same thing yesterday with my new Prodigy DCC system I installed. I thought about it and realized that if I just turn ON all of the blocks I would power the layout without having to re-wire anything. I then used two wall light swtches to control the power from my MRC power transformer and the DCC unit.
The power lines from the transformer go to one light switch with track leads attached go to the tracks and I did the same with the DCC unit attaching it to the other light switch, and it worked. All I have to do is turn off the transformer light switch and the DCC works, then visa versa with the DCC unit.
No complicated wiring and I just left the layout wiring alone but turned on all of the blocks for the DCC unit.
Robert Sylvester
Newberry-Columbia Line
Newberry. SC
Mel advised me to use connectors, not wall switches, I several single pole connectors, I guess I could one for each wire to turn on and off the power to the units, transformer and Prodigy DCC.