You need to keep the two completely isolate. If you want to be able to switch between DC and DCC, you cna use a DPDT CENTER OFF toggle (MUST be center off) and connect the DCC to one side, the DC to the other, and the center to the rails. Or find an old-fashioned knife switch.
If it's any sort of modern DC power pack, it will be transistorized, and likely there is a capacitor near the output, which will swallow up the DCC signal. Or the output transistor, getting power fed back in that half the time is the wrong polarity, could be shorting things out. Definitely do not want to do that for long. And running the DC supply with the DCC conencted will feed significnat current back in to the outptu drivers of the DCC system and likely damage something. This is why you NEVER want to have any chance for DC and DCC power to come together - like alternating blocks, even with gaps in both rails. A loco or a lighted car crossing the gaps would connect the two together. And Bad Thing would happen.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
What I read here was that even if the DC pack is off but still wired in, it will interfere with the DCC. Once I removed it completely, my DCC worked. If I decide to run DC for my little dockside, I’ll isolate the industries completely for that reason.
MacTromengine was active but unresponsive. I removed my DC pack from the equation,
We've seen that in the forum before. I don't understand why, but even turned off, a DC power pack is a problem. You can run one or the other with a DPDT center off switch.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Randy
I am a user (one year) of the previous model Zephyr Xtra, just ordered the version you describe. It has shipped and is due to arrive Saturday. In addition to the upgrades you mention, they have replaced the myriad of identical tiny black buttons with large, backlighted buttons. Their shape gives some feedback, for instance the loco button is shaped like a locomotive!
But for me the biggest issue is the inclusion of the onboard USB port. I was faced with purchasing the Digitrax add-on box with USB. $70 bucks just for the port. Made it a no-brainer to upgrade and sell my original unit on eBay!
rrinker Zephyr Xtra has now been replaced with the Zephyr Express which has a color LCD screen and other new features. Computer interface is built in, for one thing, so you can immediately add JMRI and WiThrottle/Engine Driver right out of the box. --Randy
Zephyr Xtra has now been replaced with the Zephyr Express which has a color LCD screen and other new features. Computer interface is built in, for one thing, so you can immediately add JMRI and WiThrottle/Engine Driver right out of the box.
Some years ago I picked up a MRC2K that had three throttles on the panel and two on a lanyard.
Number one on the panel could also drvie a DC loco which I did a few times. It would drive a DC 0-8-0 Winans Camel as a pusher. I had a 4-4-0 tender drive with DCC up front.
Finally gave it away and bought the NCE Power Cab. No more DC though.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
tstage MacTrom I had been looking at MRCs prodigy, but now thinking about NCE as I know many who use it. It looks like the throttle access and balance are better than MRCs. Terry, I thought that I would miss the rheostat speed knob to control my locomotives. However, it didn't take me long at all to learn and realize that I really liked the thumbwheel and/or course/fine speed buttons of the Power Cab. And, again, I can do it one-handed - without needing to look down at the LCD screen. If you should choose the Power Cab, all you need to use your smartphone as an additional throttle is 1) an NCE USB interface, 2) a printer cable, 3) JMRI software (FREE) and driver for NCE USB interface, 4) a Windows or MAC computer, and 5) a wireless router. Tom
MacTrom I had been looking at MRCs prodigy, but now thinking about NCE as I know many who use it. It looks like the throttle access and balance are better than MRCs.
Terry,
I thought that I would miss the rheostat speed knob to control my locomotives. However, it didn't take me long at all to learn and realize that I really liked the thumbwheel and/or course/fine speed buttons of the Power Cab. And, again, I can do it one-handed - without needing to look down at the LCD screen.
If you should choose the Power Cab, all you need to use your smartphone as an additional throttle is 1) an NCE USB interface, 2) a printer cable, 3) JMRI software (FREE) and driver for NCE USB interface, 4) a Windows or MAC computer, and 5) a wireless router.
Tom
thanks, Tom. I have a spare Mac Mini that I’m thinking will be my JMRI computer, and having seen demos of WiThrottle, can use my iPad for a secondary throttle/dispatch station.
Terry
Thanks, Randy. I'm familar with Mark Gurries from the NCE Groups forum and his website but the links are helpful, nonetheless.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
If you need information on NCE setup and configuration, I suggest Mark Gurrie's site, if it involves NCE, systems, decoders, panels, updates - it's there. Well organized, too. And often with more details than what NCE typically puts on their site. Some good general DCC info as well.
This is his main site, more general DCC:
https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home
This is the NCE page:
https://sites.google.com/site/mgurriesncedcc/home
rrinker If we're being pedantic - whoever did the redesign for NCE's web site should be lined up in front of a firing squad. Good luck finding ANYTHING in there, unless it's the newest featured item on the main page. Their old one was no great shakes, but it was far easier to navigate than the current one. Mark Gurries' neatly organized site full of NCE information wouldn't have a reason to exist if the actual NCE site were better organized.
I'll agree with you on that one, Randy. I rarily visit the NCE site just to roam around. If I am looking for something specific to NCE, it's easier to google it then look for the NCE url references. The Digitrax site is much better organized and arranged.
betamax Why does everyone immediately compare the PowerCab (intermediate) to the Zephyr (beginner)? Why not the NCE Twin, which is much more equivilent to a Zephyr. It even has one more throttle than the Zephyr, and sells for less (comparing the MSRP)! When considering a DCC system solely on price, you will find yourself painted into a corner quickly. One soon discovers the limitations, and expansion isn't easy or inexpensive either. Simplicity can bite you later too! Digitrax systems are not more complicated. They are as simple or as complicated as you want. Yes, they can be intimidating, but you can always buy a simpler throttle if that is your issue. MU operations are also simple to set up. Sure, Digitrax equipment comes with thick manuals full of text that you have to read, but I would rather have a detailed manual explaining what the equipment can do, than a simple one that doesn't really tell me anything and actively tries to hide the details. Makes for more confusion and misunderstandings.
Why does everyone immediately compare the PowerCab (intermediate) to the Zephyr (beginner)? Why not the NCE Twin, which is much more equivilent to a Zephyr. It even has one more throttle than the Zephyr, and sells for less (comparing the MSRP)!
When considering a DCC system solely on price, you will find yourself painted into a corner quickly. One soon discovers the limitations, and expansion isn't easy or inexpensive either. Simplicity can bite you later too!
Digitrax systems are not more complicated. They are as simple or as complicated as you want. Yes, they can be intimidating, but you can always buy a simpler throttle if that is your issue. MU operations are also simple to set up.
Sure, Digitrax equipment comes with thick manuals full of text that you have to read, but I would rather have a detailed manual explaining what the equipment can do, than a simple one that doesn't really tell me anything and actively tries to hide the details. Makes for more confusion and misunderstandings.
Simple reason - the Zephyr, labelled as a beginner system, actually does a lot MORE than the PowerCab, the supposed "intermediate" system. The PowerCab rally only has one advantage, in that the throttle is walkaround. But when it comes to programming, number of supported throttles, power output - pretty much EVERY other feature, the Zephyr exceeds the PowerCab. Especially the latest since it has the equivalent of the USB interface built in to the box now, so nothing extra to buy to hook it up to a computer running JMRI and getting wireless throttles using the smartphone you probably already have.
The Twin is closer to a glorified version of the Bachmann EZ Command. It works much the same way. You can't select and address locos by cab number, you assign a loco to one of the two throttle knobs. It only goes up to F8.
As for the manuals - it's been a LONG time since the Digitrax manuals were difficult. The first few pages of ones for a number of years now are EXACTLY like the first few pages of NCE manuals - they tell you to hook wires from THIS terminal to your track, Plug in your power supply HERE. Put a loco on the trrack, press THESE buttons, and turn THIS knob to run your train. Straightforward how to make a loco go with no technical gobbleygook. That comes later in the manual, when EVERY feature is fully described. And it's not far off from the NCE manuals - really, complain about the OpSW configuration section of the Digitrax manual but the part of the NCE manual that explains the whole cab bus protocol and all the codes it uses, that's OK?
If we're being pedantic - whoever did the redesign for NCE's web site should be lined up in front of a firing squad. Good luck finding ANYTHING in there, unless it's the newest featured item on the main page. Their old one was no great shakes, but it was far easier to navigate than the current one. Mark Gurries' neatly organized site full of NCE information wouldn't have a reason to exist if the actual NCE site were better organized.
As far as hard to learn - my ex father in law, who is no great computer genius, had no trouble learing to run his locos that I put decoders in with my original Zephyr. Somewhat self defense I suppose, sinc ehe was retired, if he wanted to run trains when I was at work, he had to do it himself. And he had no problem. He wasn't about to be installing decoders - but the DCC system has no bearing on that particualr skill. And in a club setting, if you are tossing a DT40x or DT500 throttle at a newbie, you really are trusting, or else like to fix odd problems. The UT4 is much better suited for someone running a train - that's all we generally allow people to use at our club layout. ANd even the people who don't have ANY DCC at home can figure these things out. There are 4 number dials, to put in an address, a big knob for speed, and a toggle switch for direction.
Perhaps it's time to stop comparing the Digitrax system of 25 years ago with what's been available for the past 14 or so. I have one of those ancient throttles - because even the old stuff still works on a new system - and it's fine for running a train but that used to be the 'full feature' throttle to do programming. It only has 8 buttons - oh less buttons = more simple - yeah, not so much. When using a short address it only uses 2 digits on the display, which is why it launches into a pseudo hexidecimal for addresses 100-127. ANd for CV values greater than 100. So yeah, it's pretty hard to use. I wouldn't even consider trying to program anything with it, the newer throttles are much easier. But this is somethign that was discontinued 19 years ago. Hardly relevent to a discussion of what system to buy TODAY, other than to say that if you really wanted to for some reason, you CAN still use it on a modern system like I do. But I also don't use all 29 funtions on sound decoders - I need lights, horn, and bell. A mute, and a button for ESU's full throttle. 5 functions - so that old throttle still works fine without crazy keypress combinations. But I still prefer the current ones, they are still easier to use.
MacTromI had been looking at MRCs prodigy, but now thinking about NCE as I know many who use it. It looks like the throttle access and balance are better than MRCs.
Based on this thread, I wouldn't go with a MRC Tech 6.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/273962.aspx
BTW I am the only one that answered. If you guys have another explanation of why he has no control on the DC side of his unit, help the guy out.
To be fair, one malfunction doesn't really mean much of anything without knowing how many people have had no problems. Let's just say the MRC crowd lacks the fervor of the Digitrax and NCE fans.
The digitrax throttles are so complex that adults cant figure them out? Thats the sort of thing a farmer shovles out the back of his barn. I have seven grandkids and all but the youngest have no problem with them. He is only a year old. If they confuse you maybe you need a simpler hobby.
To fill in some details: I’m into N, my current layout would have filled my 9x11 second bedroom, and three of my roster are small dockside or 0-6-0 switcher. I’m moving in April, tearing down the unfinished layout and starting over wherever I end up. Up until now, the consideration of upgrading would have been prohibitive, and as far as I can determine, even the smallest decoder/speaker would not be possible in the docksides, or would require a tag-along tender or car to house them.
Since obtaining my first DC/DCC dual mode engine (Bachmann Berkshire), I’ve started to reconsider. I still plan on a small layout, single operator, with maybe two or three engines working at a time. Not a dozen. A 2amp system should be fine. I’d like to be able to use WiThrottle as well. I had been looking at MRCs prodigy, but now thinking about NCE as I know many who use it. It looks like the throttle access and balance are better than MRCs. Thanks for the considerations. I’ll continue researching over the weekend, I’ve watched many a you-tube video as well, and shop for a beginners system next week.
No, Digitrax does not cost more. They are the same or, in many cases, the equivalent Digitrax unit is cheaper. Just verified on Modeltrainstuff, NCE Wireless system is $100 more than the Digitrax wireless set AND you still have to add a power supply to the NCE. Digitrax comes with one. So no, it's not cheaper. The PowerCab is cheaper by a bit than a Zephyer but the Zephyr has more power and runs a LOT more locos, out of the box. The latest one also includes the USB interface for using JMRI.
Basic operation ALL DCC systems is exactly they same. There is a LOCO or SELECT button, you type the loco number on the keypad, and hit enter. That's it. Exactly the same, Digitrax, NCE, MRC, whatever.
I actually thought of a good analogy the other day, mor eof the "Digitrax is too hard". No, it's not. Stop overthinking. The Digitrax MU works like an office telephone OUGHT to work - I though of this as I was having trouble setting up a conference call on my desk phone at work. With Ditirax, you have loco A on the right throttle, first 'call'. You make a second 'call' on the left throttle, line 2. Press the MU key and - you're DONE. Two 'calls' conferenced together. Why our office phone system can't be this easy - there IS a 'conference' key but it does NOT join the calls on line 1 and line 2 together.
As I decided to comprehensively write in another thread...
NCE is actually cheaper than Digitrax, and they offer, in my opinion, way better software or whatever you want to call it on their throttles for cheaper prices. The reasons you will see NCE recommended is most likey due to the following:
They are cheaper
Their throttles can be handed to a newbie no problem
Good costumer support
Ridiculously easy programming, consisting, aquiring, and function toggling
My club recommended it to me, and they use digitrax
Nice throttle shape
Splendid HUD (thats what I am calling it 'cause why not) on the LCD screen
If you own a powercab and an NCE usb, and have no need for more amps or signal and turnout controls, you are set for life!!! Why? NCE throttles are incredible drop resiliant so they will last for a lifetime and NCE usb's allow you unlimited Wifi throttles through android or apple devices, as well as programming from your computer and using the other goodies JMRI has to offer. Powercabs are their own command station, booster, and throttle. This means you can take your entire command station to a club with NCE and run trains with it, because it was designed to do that by NCE. Wasn't that nice of them? As you can tell, I chose NCE, and I will go a decent way to defend it. It is good for novices, novice professionals, and pros. It plays no favorites.
Additionally, I hate digitrax because of the following:
They cost more for the steep learning curve they require
It came out before NCE stuffs, so the technology is older
It's so tricky to find the button you want and even to aquire a locomotive if you have no prior Digitrax knowledge, I just scrapped trying and went with the Withrottle app when running trains at my club layout.
Hope all of this helps...
I'm beginning to realize that Windows 10 and sound decoders have a lot in common. There are so many things you have to change in order to get them to work the way you want.
I have a friend that just converted over from DC to DCC, he optied for the Power Cab beginners system. He's happier than a pig in shi-- with it. He did look at other systems but $$$ were a factor and he's very happy with the Power cab. He is also not really tech savy. That being said he had no trouble hooking it up and getting an engine to run.
I myself bit the bullet,when I converted from dc and got a NCE 5 amp Power pro wireless system. I spent the money up front and I haven't needed to upgrade and looking down the road I won't need it to.
Bill
The thing about starter vs full featured system - well, both NCE and Digitrax are fully upgradeable with no left over or thrown away parts. So do you really end up spending more money? For NCE, I wouldn;t upgrade by getting the SB5, I'd get a PH-Pro full system. And have 2 throttles, which, unless you absolutely have no friends or family, most everyone wants at some point.
It all depends on what you have now. If you have a full basement and want to conver to DCC - I fully agree, don;t fool around with the basic entry system from anyone. You'll need to almost immediately upgrade it anyway. If you're just starting out with a 4x8 practice layout - no point it getting a full featured 5 amp system when you can spend a whole lot less and get the basic system, and if you stick with it and later build a bigger layout - upgrade then.
Or, upgrade by buying the higher end command station, instead of a full high end system, but the packaged sets usually offer a discount over the cpononents sold seperately, and most people will want a second throttle anyway.
As you can tell, there is a variety of choices and opinions on all of them. I have the NCE starter set and have never used another brand. I have a small layout and the only problem I have had was my own fault. I ran to many sound locos at once, as I was double headding. NCE was very good about making the needed repair.
As to which one to choose, are there any clubs or operating groups in your area? If there are, find out what brand thay use. By having the same brand you can operate with them using your own throttle or the least is you have people close by that can help you should you have questions on your set.
That was the advice I was given by the dealer I purchased from. There was one group I knew of, they used NCE, so that is the route I went.
It seems there is no wrong answer, but there are some better options in individual cases.
Good luck,
Richard
richhotrainMy point of view is to start out with a full featured system, not a "starter system".
Mike
I have a different point of view on selecting a DCC system. My point of view is to start out with a full featured system, not a "starter system". Take NCE, for example. The starter system would be the NCE Power Cab. The full featured system would be the PowerHouse Pro (PH-Pro) or better yet the wireless PH-Pro.
I say this because what winds up happening is that the user who initially selects the starter system, say the NCE Power Cab, often ends up upgrading with more power such as the SB5, a 5 amp "smart booster", and/or an additional throttle, etc. So, why not simply start out with a full featured DCC system?
That is not intended to put down starter systems like the NCE Power Cab. In fact, many of us who own the NCE PH-Pro either also own an NCE Power Cab or have at least considered the NCE Power Cab to supplement the NCE PH-Pro, for example as a workbench tool.
Alton Junction
MacTrom I don’t have a large roster of locos, and half of them will need some repair or cleaning to get running efficiently again
After 20 years, none of mine needed cleaning. Installing DCC and finding room for a speaker was not an especially enjoyable task for me, others enjoy it. In general, new locos have much better detail.
I'm happy with my NCE Powercab
I have checked out the Zephyr Express. It does seem like a great improvement, although the original was great, too.
I can't intelligently talk about any one system over another, as I've had Digitrax from the beginning.
Mike.
My You Tube
I'll also suggest that you can't really go wrong with either NCE or Digitrax. Do take some time researching though. Not having access to either system, I found that YouTube has some good videos on the operation of the two systems. I had been determined to duy a Digitrax system for years after the debacle I experienced with an MRC Command 2000 system. When I finally had enough funds to pull the trigger and buy one, I went looking to reinforce my decision to buy Digitrax by researching the competition to convince myself further that Digitrax was the choice for me. Upon doing so, I learned about some of the differences in features, design, etc., that ended up changing my mind to an NCE system. All based on personal preferences, not because one was necessarily superior to the other. I suggest you do the same.
This question comes up quite regularly here on the forum. You can also do a "Search the Community" (located on the right side of the screen) and find a plethora of answers to your query.
That said, another vote for the NCE Power Cab. I've had one since 2006 and still enjoy and prefer it's simplicity and intuitiveness for operating and programming my locomotives. It's also expandable and can grow with you as/if your layout grows. The handheld unit is also designed so that operations can be done one-handed and without the need to look at the buttons.
That's my major dislike about phone- or apps-based DCC controllers. Convenient? Yes. Ubiquitous? Yes. Desirable as a throttle? I'd spend more time staring at the throttle screen than looking at my locomotives.
Oh, and I play the ukulele and still prefer the Power Cab.
Roger Hensley= ECI Railroad - http://madisonrails.railfan.net/eci/eci_new.html == Railroads of Madison County - http://madisonrails.railfan.net/ =