I am getting ready to lay several Walthers code 83 HO turnouts on my layout. They have insulated frogs and will be controlled by Tortoise switch machines. I want to power the frog on these turnouts. I flipped one over and there is plastic tie material over the center of the frog. I prefer to wire my switches from underneath. I scraped away that little bit of plastic and exposed the center of the frog which has a small piece of insulating plastic between the metal diverging rails. 1. Can I solder my power bus here to power the frog and should my feeder bridge the small insulator and connect to both frog rails or just connect to either side of the metal to power the frog?
Thanks for any help.
The guard rails on my Walthers DCC friendly turnouts are electrically connected with the frog. I successfully connected the frog feeders to a guardrail just as I did the other track feeders to the track rails.
Dante
Hi, Gary —
I did the same thing as Dante using maybe 20 or 24 gauge wire. I used small aluminum heat sink clamps and soldered in a place where there wouldn't be any interference with wheels passing through frog. Preferably on the "back" side away from view.
https://www.robotshop.com/en/soldering-heat-sink.html
Once painted and ballasted the wire is nearly invisible. Soldering before installing the switch, of course, is preferred.
Good Luck, Ed
I think what you exposed on the very bottom is where the rails cross over beneath the frog so the closure rail and frog rail are connected past the frog. The a layer of plastic, then the other closure rail to other frog rail, then there is probably yet another layer fo plastic and THEN the frog. I'd try as above, rather than attaching to what you just exposed - you can verify by using a meter on continuity and seeing if the bottom exposed metal is the same as the frog, ot one of the closure rails. My money is on it being the closure rail.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker I think what you exposed on the very bottom is where the rails cross over beneath the frog so the closure rail and frog rail are connected past the frog. The a layer of plastic, then the other closure rail to other frog rail, then there is probably yet another layer fo plastic and THEN the frog. I'd try as above, rather than attaching to what you just exposed - you can verify by using a meter on continuity and seeing if the bottom exposed metal is the same as the frog, ot one of the closure rails. My money is on it being the closure rail. --Randy
Thanks to all for the replies. Will double check the continuity on the guard rails. As you say, they are easier to solder to than the cutting away the plastic. Appreciate the quick response.
Gary
Hey Guys,
Just an update. The new Walther's turnouts have the frog completely insulated and there is no continuity between the guard rails and the frog. However, where I scraped away the insulation from the underside "X" portion of the frog there is continuity between the two sides, so the frog power does have to solder to the frog on these turnouts.
I'd like to see that picture. There is a sticky on how to post pictures, whatever you did, didn't work.
My Walthers turnouts are 3 years old and the guard rail is in continuity with the frog.
Since you don't post that often (not a judgement) you may not know that Shinohara, that makes those turnouts decided to close up shop, supposedly because the owner wanted to retire and no one wanted to take over the busines..
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
And my newest turnout is 18 months old with continuity between guardrail and frog. Hard to believe they would change this configuration. For what purpose? Suggest you check again for continuity.
GARY OLSONThe new Walther's turnouts have the frog completely insulated and there is no continuity between the guard rails and the frog.
In my understanding of the terminology, the guard rails are not any part of the frog but are on the opposite rails (the stock rails) and the guide rails at the frog are called wing rails. Yes, the guard rails SHOULD be insulated from the frog.
In the injection molding process, hot plastic will seep into some of the cavity of the frog. The only "true" insulating points are at the four orange arrows.
SHIN_83_frog by Edmund, on Flickr
Shinohara turnout frogs are made up of small pieces of carefully milled rail, held in a jig and soldered from the bottom.
Frog_pb by Edmund, on Flickr
Here's a frog I pried the plastic off of. You can see bits of the remaining plastic and the blob of solder holding everything together.
Be careful adding heat to the factory solder but, yes, a small gauge wire can be soldered there after scraping some of the plastic from the bottom. The plastic is thinner between ties at this point.
SHIN_83_frog-b by Edmund, on Flickr
SHIN_83_frog-b2 by Edmund, on Flickr
Carefully slicing away at either place here will expose a blob of solder that would be fairly easy to attach a tinned wire to.
SHIN_83_frog-crop by Edmund, on Flickr
The bonding jumpers do not cross at the frog but are fore and aft of the frog (two pair).
A little extra work, but if it is worth it for you, go for it. I mentioned in my earlier reply that I simply attach a small wire at the tip of the wing rail. It gets painted and hidden with ballast.
Cheers, Ed
Ed,
You are correct about wing rails vs. guardrails-my bad!
dante Ed, You are correct about wing rails vs. guardrails-my bad! Dante
I had to look at a drawing to help "jog" my memory
https://dccwiki.com/Turnout
Pictures (and drawings) make things so much easier to comprehend .
Cheers! Ed
Something to check for...
I've powered many-a-frog by removing the plastic from the underside and soldering in a wire, as described here by others.
Once in a while I noticed that the plastic expanded in the flangeway, making it too shallow, and becoming a potential cause of derailments. While this could be a manufacturers defect, I suspect that I got too heavy-handed with the soldering iron from time to time.
Its an easy fix, by running a small file though the flangeway and checking it with the NMRA standards gage.
Jim
dante Ed, You are correct about wing rails vs. guardrails-my bad
You are correct about wing rails vs. guardrails-my bad
Me too
A word of caution:
The plastic on the top side of the frog is what the wheel flanges ride on. If this melts wheels can derail. I put a wet towel underneath when I soldered feeders, plus heatsinks, but some still melted.
I now drill & tap for a screw to hold the wire, or use electrically conductive adhesive.
Terry
TBat55 A word of caution: The plastic on the top side of the frog is what the wheel flanges ride on. If this melts wheels can derail. I put a wet towel underneath when I soldered feeders, plus heatsinks, but some still melted. I now drill & tap for a screw to hold the wire, or use electrically conductive adhesive.
I am not aware of plastic on top of the frog on WS turnouts (I have many). Simply attach your feeder to the adjacent wing rail.
TBat55 A word of caution: The plastic on the top side of the frog is what the wheel flanges ride on.
The plastic on the top side of the frog is what the wheel flanges ride on.
It sounds like a "flangeway" is being described here. If so, on my Shinohara switches, the flange does NOT ride on the bottom of the flangeway because there is approximately .015" gap between the bottom of an RP25 flange and the top of the flangeway.
I have been considering adding a .015" shim in the bottom to lessen the wheel drop at this point.
Ed
PS: As mentioned by others, I too have soldered a feeder to the insulated metal frog. I used a resistance soldering machine, and with some practice, you are in and out before significant heat damage.
I only plan to use "DCC Friendly" turnouts where the turnouts go frog-to-frog like on a crossover. These places power routing would not be advantageous.
.
My intention was to solder the feeder wire to the back side of the wing rail where it cannot be seen.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Just when and why is it necessary to power the frogs, if at all? Not just recommended, but necessary.
From what I've read so far elsewhere, I understand that powering the frogs is recommended to maintain continuity of electrical contact and to prevent short circuits when locos cross a turnout.
I recently purchased the DCC-friendly Walthers (all-live, e.g, electrically the same as Atlas Snap Switch turnouts) turnouts for my DC-powered HO layout.
On a previous layout of the same, small size (7' x 5') using Atlas Snap Switch (also all-live) turnouts, I never experienced an electrical problem with the turnouts.
So, powering the frogs on new Walthers turnouts: at all necessary - or even recommended?
Thanks!
Kerry
HOmainlineI understand that powering the frogs is recommended for locos with long wheelbases so that electrical contact is not lost and short circuits don't occur when crossing a turnout.
I have no knowledge of how a 2-8-0 power pickup works. I will take your word for it, even though I suspect it gets power from the tender as well.
My Bachmann 45 tonner can navigate #4 and #5 Walthers turnouts even though I went to the trouble of attaching an unpowered feeder to the frogs. It seemed to me to be easier to do at installation, than down the road after ballasting. Maybe when I install sound in that loco, my opinion will change. For now the feeders are just dangling. I have Atlas curved turnouts for future expansion, and there will only be one axle on powered rail. I will be powering those frogs.
Keep alives eliminate the need for powered frogs for the locos. I have no firm knowledge of how lighted passenger cars and cabooses behave. Other unpowered rolling stock doesn't care about frog power.
Kevin,
Please elaborate on your reason for soldering a feeder wire to the wing rail vs. soldering it to the underside of the frog. Is that in lieu of the latter or in addition to it so as simply to assure electrical conductivity? Or for another purpose?
Gary,
That link is kaput. Can you provide a good one?
I think we ran off another newbie
Terry,
Where can we purchase that electically conductive adhesive?
What I meant was if the plastic deforms and curls up it's a problem. I had to file some down and they don't look as good.
HOmainlinePlease elaborate on your reason for soldering a feeder wire to the wing rail vs. soldering it to the underside of the frog.
Access will be easier to the wing rail. I am all for making my jobs easier. If the turnout is more or less parallel to the layout edge the outside of one wing rail will be out of view and perfect for soldering a lead wire onto.
Also, maintenance and repair will be near-impossible if the wire is soldered to the bottom of the frog.
HOmainlineJust when and why is it necessary to power the frogs, if at all? Not just recommended, but necessary.
It is never really necessary.
My brass steamers pick up power from one side of the tender. That is only 4 33 inch wheels going through less than perfect contact points to maintain continuity. Crossing an insulated fromon a #6 or #8 turnout takes two of the wheels, half of the contact surface, out of the equasion.
An 0-6-0 only picks up power from one rail on three closely spaced small diameter drivers.
Powering the frogs makes my steamers more reliable.
Dr. Wayne has gone through the effort to add pickup to the insulated drivers and tender wheels on his brass steamers. I have no plans for that extended effort unless it proves itself necessary.
Powering the frogs is my go-to preference for good pick-up.
Kevin
Thanks - a good tip for simplicity's sake.
Are you saying that a feeder wire soldered to a wing rail will power the frog, even though on the Walthers/Shinohara DCC-friendly turnouts they're insulated from each other?
Thanks! And I plan to do so for the same reason: to keep 'ol Murphy from putting in an appearance.
HOmainlineAre you saying that a feeder wire soldered to a wing rail will power the frog, even though on the Walthers/Shinohara DCC-friendly turnouts they're insulated from each other?
Here's the bottom of a Shinohara/Walthers code 83 frog after the plastic has been removed:
I'm not sure what you mean by "insulated from eachother"?
The frog point and wing rails are electrically continuous through that blob of solder. I have over a hundred powered frogs with the wire soldered to the wing rail on the back side as Kevin describes.
Thanks for the clarification. I didn't look closely enough at that blob of solder in the photo before to see the electrical connection between frog and wings.
I was just looking at the frog and wing rails of my turnout from the top only (not having cut away at the plastic piece underneath), referring to the plastic strips between the wing rails and the frog visible from that top-view perspective.