Ladder1 So there was nothing wrong with the Bachmann product?
So there was nothing wrong with the Bachmann product?
Nothing wrong with the SoundTraxx OEM Bachmann Sound Value decoder or the NCE DCC systems. NCE Advanced Consisting not being used as designed to be used.
RR Baron
I have been following the Bachmann forums for many years. There are many users of Bachmann products there and company reps, documents, parts list, CV list, etc.
I have seen many times in different forums that some never post questions there.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
You have that backwards - systems that use CV19 are the ones that can have issues with BEMF, at least with deocders liek Digitrax which offer two sets of BEMF parameters, those for running singleton and those for using CV19 consisting. You don;t see the issue with Digitrax consisting because they don;t use CV19, but it's a common problem with other systems - the user speed matches the locos using the individual address, the run great. Then they put them in a consist and suddenly the one loco acts up. Guarantee they always have a Digitrax decoder in the one that acts up.
NCE's consisting is actually a bit of a mix, because it does keep track of the lead and trailing loco by actual address as well as whatever consist number it generates for CV19. That's what makes it easy to change direction and still have the horn and bell sounds only come from the lead loco the way it should. If they used pure CV19 then they would have to reset CV21 and 22 every time you flipped ends. Pretty sure they don't do that. That would work, until one of the locos missed the program command due to dirty track or being stopped on a switch frog or something.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
maxman "My NCE manual says the front and rear loco numbers say they serve as aliases for the consist number, but there is no warning not to use the consist number." I prefer to think that the number in CV19 serves as the alias for the locos in the consist. That eliminates the idea that the front loco and rear loco each have a separate alias. DigitalGriffin NCE manual or not, using the address in CV19 is the way to get your consist to work. Not exactly sure what you mean, but I disagree with this statement. With NCE the consisted locos will operate using the lead unit address or the trailing unit address. They will also operate if you select the address in CV 19, but with NCE no one needs to remember what that number is.
"My NCE manual says the front and rear loco numbers say they serve as aliases for the consist number, but there is no warning not to use the consist number."
I prefer to think that the number in CV19 serves as the alias for the locos in the consist. That eliminates the idea that the front loco and rear loco each have a separate alias.
DigitalGriffin NCE manual or not, using the address in CV19 is the way to get your consist to work.
Not exactly sure what you mean, but I disagree with this statement. With NCE the consisted locos will operate using the lead unit address or the trailing unit address. They will also operate if you select the address in CV 19, but with NCE no one needs to remember what that number is.
But it's opinion. So if using NCE's method of doing it works for you, go at it. :D
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
Oh good! I'm glad you didn't have to buy another decoder altogether.
I'm beginning to realize that Windows 10 and sound decoders have a lot in common. There are so many things you have to change in order to get them to work the way you want.
DigitalGriffinNCE manual or not, using the address in CV19 is the way to get your consist to work.
Everything is working as it should and I'm delighted with the results. It's good to know that programming can be done off the layout, but consist building should be done on the layout. Again thanks for the help and guidance.
jim
jeep35 I would never have imagined that you couldn't do that especially since both systems were made by the same manufacture. I believe you, in fact my recent experience serves as proof. Is it just building a consist, I mean can you still program a locomotive (give it an address) on a programming track and test it out and then move to the layout without causing unwanted issues. I did find it convenient to use a programming track rather than removing any locomotives from the layout when I would program a new locomotive. jim
I would never have imagined that you couldn't do that especially since both systems were made by the same manufacture. I believe you, in fact my recent experience serves as proof. Is it just building a consist, I mean can you still program a locomotive (give it an address) on a programming track and test it out and then move to the layout without causing unwanted issues. I did find it convenient to use a programming track rather than removing any locomotives from the layout when I would program a new locomotive.
Yes, you can do all your programming to set up the loco on a different system, that sets CVs in the loco only, and those go anywhere the loco goes. Setting up a consist does, pretty much invisible to you, more than just programming CV19 to a consist address. There is some information that is kept in the system itself, not just the decoder. That's why if you build a consist on one system and go to the other, it doesn't fully function as expected. You don't need or use a program track to build the consist, it does it directly with programming on the main. Even stubborn sound decoders that don;t work well on the low power program track will take the programming when using programming on the main.
SO once yoou get the locos back to where they started, so they work as independent locos on their own addresses, and the sounds work as expected, give it another try, either build and run the consist on your test track, or build and run it on the layout. One or the other. The steps should be pretty much identical regardless of which system you are using.
BigDaddy RR Baron Be sure to Select and run the consist using the lead locomotive address NEVER use the consist address. Is this advice addressed to the OP or are you talkin' to me? (Taxi Driver) My NCE manual says the front and rear loco numbers say they serve as aliases for the consist number, but there is no warning not to use the consist number.
RR Baron Be sure to Select and run the consist using the lead locomotive address NEVER use the consist address.
Is this advice addressed to the OP or are you talkin' to me? (Taxi Driver)
My NCE manual says the front and rear loco numbers say they serve as aliases for the consist number, but there is no warning not to use the consist number.
NCE manual or not, using the address in CV19 is the way to get your consist to work. It's part of NMRA spec. But that won't fix the sound issues as they are dependent on the model of the decoder (as jeep found out) They all handle consist sound/light functions differently.
And that's why you don;t build a consist on one NCE system the physically move the locos to another NCE system - they aren't portable. Just like most any other DCC system I am familiar with. Even though CV19 remains set in the locos, and all of them will continue to respond to the CV19 address, because you've lost that lead loco concept by moving to another command station, now you have to fiddle with CV21 and 22. Easier to just not do that, and build the consist on the system it will run on.
Henry,
The never use but the lead loco address to control the consist is an old NCE rule of thumb/guidance not expressed in their manual. Like all such rules of thumb there is more to it.
The more to it: You can use the lead loco number to control the consist only IF you are using the NCE DCC system that created the consist. If you take the consist to a different layout or change DCC systems, even NCE; you will have to use the consist ID for control or kill and rebuild the consist.
Well, the whole programming track started off innocently enough. A year or so ago I decided to upgrade my DCC system by purchasing a NCE booster and additional power supply. That made the PowerPro throttle just another throttle. A friend gave me a NCE Cab06 or something like that for Christmas. Since I had an extra throttle I decided to get cute by setting up a dedicated programming track forgetting in the process the cardinal rule KISS! Who knows, maybe when I originally programmed the FA2s I confused their little memory banks when I moved them to the main line. The programming track did have some usage. I had a couple engines that I had given addresses to eons ago and no longer would respond when I called up the address. I could simply reprogram them and they would respond when recalling the address. Now the layout is wired with the PowerPro controlling everything as before and I have 3 functioning throttles which should be enough. On to the next misadventure. Dilly Dilly!
The key though is CV21 and 22 at 0. ANd build the consist on the same system they are going to run. It will NEVER work to build the consist ont he test track and then move the locos over to the main and use the PowerPro - it will have NO CLUE about what you did with the PowerCab on the test track when it comes to setting up the consist, and the locos won;t respond properly when trying to build a new consist.
This is supposed to be easy - first step is getting the decoders reset and all the locos working on their actual addresses. THEN, on the main layout, hit Consist and follow the prompts. Select one loco to be the lead, the other to be the trailing unit. If you have them set on the track back to back, say the trailing unit is running in reverse. It's on the menu. There is no reason why this shouldn;t work.
RR BaronBe sure to Select and run the consist using the lead locomotive address NEVER use the consist address.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Barron,
The older I get the more puzzled I get. It's all "blackboxes and witchcraft" to me. But hey, thanks for your help.
Jim,
I am still puzzled by why the horn would not work to start with. That is what got us into CV 21 & 22, which should have work without any entry in them. Surmise one of the try this you received corrupted the Consist in the NCE command station.
==============
Be sure to Select and run the consist using the lead locomotive address NEVER use the consist address.
All well when things work!
OK Friends,
Here's the deal. When I first purchased the Bachman FA-2s I got home put one on the track and gave it a test. I loved it, in fact I was so taken by it that I ordered a second pair. So now I have 4 FA-2 locomotives. The experience I have had getting a pair of them to consist together is well documented in the above posts and some posts from several weeks ago. With the help, patience, and guidance of some very knowlegeable people I managed to get them to function correctly in spite of my best efforts to the contrary. In short they now work fine, no complaints. Just to satisfy my own curiosity and to jot down CV values that seem to work, I rechecked CV21 and to my wonder and amazement the value was now 255. How can this be! I know I didn't enter 255, but there it was. But hey, everything is working so what do I care what the number is. Soooooo, I take the other pair of FA-2s right out of the box, give them each a address, and venture again into the daunting world of consisting. Again I try using the "advanced" option (I know some people are gonna get mad at me) and the ole NCE system gives me 117 as a consist number. Type in 117 for select loco and turn up the throttle, the darn things operated flawlessly!!!!! Bells, horns, lights, everything working exactly like the engineers at Soundtraxx planned. So now I decide to check the "all powerful" CV21 to see what value is making these locomotive perform so brilliantly, 255!!!!! Have no idea how the first set got reprogrammed to 255 but it seems to work. I'm not gonna ask any questions. I'm just going to enjoy running the engines. Again I would like to thank all those kind people who took time out of their day to offer help and guidance and I would like to close with a quote fron Donald Sutherland/Oddball from the movie Kellys Heros when his tank broke down.
"Oh man, I only ride em, I don't know what makes em work"
Thanks Again
Jim
Jim.... Before I ansewer you,
What DCC system are you using on the main layout? To program with?
What is the address and position of each loco in the consist of Bachmann FA-2 ?
Select and run the consist using the lead locomotive address NEVER use the consist address.
Jim, Yes that is how to use Table D and Table E to determine value used in CV21 & 22.
Recap:
The Bachmann HO ALCO FA-2 equipped with Sound Value decoder
Diesel Decoder Function Output Assignments
Function Key Effect
F0 (f) Headlight
F0 (r) Backup Light
F1 Bell
F2 Airhorn
F3 Short Airhorn
F7 Dimmer
F8 Mute
lead engine. Table D, program CV 21 with the sum of the values corresponding to F1, F2, F3, F7 and F8, which is 1 + 2 + 4 +64 + 128 = 199. Likewise, use Table E to determine that CV 22 is programmed to 1, the value corresponding to F0(f).
trailing engine, Table D, program CV 21 with the sum of the values corresponding to F7 and F8, which is 64 + 128 = 192. Use Table E to determine that CV 22 is programmed to 2, the value corresponding to the backup light, F0(r).
Use that for now, BUT that is not the value for CV 21 & 22. More about the correct value for CV 21 & 22 later. But first an experiment,
USE PROGRAM TRK mode and only program CV 21 = 0 and CV 22 = 0 in both locomotives.
Place the locos as a consist on main track and run using lead loco address. While running will each of the susported Functions work?
I have never had any issues with on board Bachmann sound.They also work well with the sound I install.
Non sound is a different issue. Those decoders are the pits.
Ok, these links worked, the original ones you sent did not so I had to choose one of several tsunami manuals. Just so happened we were looking at different ones. Not important, you got me heading in the right direction and I was able to figure the rest out. For that I'm extremely grateful. Not to make excuses, but this is the first time I ever had this situation pop up, so I had not developed the skills needed to correct the problem. I think I have a much better understanding now. If you don't mind explaining a bit more I do have a couple questions. Using the example on table D page 22, I see values (F1=1) this would be the bell, correct? (F2=2) this would be the horn, correct? And you add up all the values for the F functions you wish to use, correct? Put that total in the CV 21 value, correct? OK, now with my diesel I have a very limited number of funtions (which is fine) so, would I be correct in assuming the following; F0 or 0 button this is value of 1. Next F1 or button 1 bell, value of 1. Next F2 or button 2 horn, value of 2. Next F3 or button 3 (short horn blast) value of 4.The next available F function according to the manual that came with the engine is F7 dimmer, I'm not concerned about this so I was going to leave it at 0. Next is F8 or button 8 value of 128. So, I would add up F1 (1), F2 (2), F3 (4) and F8 (128) for a total of 135. So CV21 would have a value of 135 and CV22 would have a value of 1. Is this correct based on the information on the website and what I have provided from the Bachman manual. Looking forward to hearing back from you.
jeep35 I think I found the answer. I went back to the Soundtraxx manual and found a table (page65) that referenced what value each function should have. Since this is a decoder with limited function; bell,horn, and headlights I was able to add the values and enter them into CV 21. It appears that the headlights are a function under CV 22. . . . Jim
I think I found the answer. I went back to the Soundtraxx manual and found a table (page65) that referenced what value each function should have. Since this is a decoder with limited function; bell,horn, and headlights I was able to add the values and enter them into CV 21. It appears that the headlights are a function under CV 22. . . .
http://www.soundtraxx.com/manuals/tsu2_diesel_usersguide.pdf is this what you used for CV 21 and CV 22?
If so, you used the wrong SoundTraxx manual and is not the link I gave you to use. You used the Tsunami2 Diesel User’s Guide pages 65 & 66 Nevertheless, in this instance, PART of what is on page 66 can be used with the Sound Value, you lucked out.
Again, here is what you sholud have been using for CV 21 and CV 22
http://www.soundtraxx.com/manuals/usersguide_diesel.pdf
The section Consist Function Enable. pages 21, 22, 23
Even though It appears I was sucessful, I truly have never had to go through all of this just to consist two locomotives and I have done it hndreds of times. Was it because of the brand, was it because they both have sound, why did this particular situation require addition programming. I have never had this issue when consisting two locomotives together, be they Atlas, Stewart/Bowser, Kato, or MTH. Even with decoders I installed myself, never this issue. I have never had to adjust the CV 21 and 22 values and add up "bits" to get things functioning correctly. Now, again this was my first experience with Bachman sound equipped locomotives and I would not have purchased two sound equipped engines but for the fact it was cheaper to buy two then one sound, one DCC ready and buy a decoder. When I was considering the purchase I never in my wildest dreams thought it would require this extra degree of programming. Is this something that occurs quite often and it's just the first time i've run across it. It seems from some of the posts that this is a fairly common occurence. Have I just been "lucky" to never had this happen in the past? Any thoughts on this? Again, thanks for all the help, suggestions, and guidance.
Glad everything worked out for you.
Maybe if you changed the title of this thread, it would help the next guy consisting Bachmann locos.
I think I found the answer. I went back to the Soundtraxx manual and found a table (page65) that referenced what value each function should have. Since this is a decoder with limited function; bell,horn, and headlights I was able to add the values and enter them into CV 21. It appears that the headlights are a function under CV 22. I would like to thank all the folks here who offered suggestions and comments and finally got me on the "right track" so to speak. Special thanks to RR Barron who mentioned that even though there was no actual Soundtraxx manual for these engines, there maybe information contained that I could use. So today I'm a little smarter (not much) then I was a couple of days ago. Believe me I'm going to write this stuff down!!!! Again thank you to everyone who helped me on this project.
Yep... That is your problem you are not correctly setting CV 21 and 22. I gave you the link to the SoundTraxx User's Guide and page numbers, which has the procedure and example to calculate the value needed.
When in programming CV on programming track all decoders get changed to what you enter.
The manual shows what function each bit of CV21 and 22 enable. Starting from the right the values for each bit are 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, and 128. Select the ones you want and then add those values together to get the total for that CV.
So if looking at the description you want the bits to be 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 1 then you have 64 + 32 + 4 + 2 + 1 for 103.
Thanks for your patience. Maybe if I describe the procedure I used something will become apparent. Cleared any and all reference to the consist I was working with, killed consist. On the NCE throttle built consist with "advanced" ( it pops up first, I have no preference between that and " old style ". My layout is small so I only use two engines in any consist). Advanced assigned it a number (118). Removed one engine from the track and then went into program mode. As you mentioned Soundtraxx has several different manuals and none are exactly for the Bachman decoder. Looking through what I believe was the correct manual it stated CV 21 and CV 22 should both be set to a value of 1. I set the values to 1. Removed that locomotive from the track, put the otheir one on and followed the same procedure. Used select loco button on the controller and entered 118. Engines moved with diesel sound, bell functioned, headlights worked in both directions, still no horn sound. Two questions. If I leave both engines on the track and go into programming mode will it change the CV values on both engines or does the system not know which one to change. Second, although the manual stated CVs 21 and 22 should be at 1, am I ultimately going to have to keep trying different values (1 2 3 4 5 etc) until I stumble across the correct value? If I go to the Bachman website it does link to a soundtraxx page with default values for these particular models. CV 21 and 22 both default to 0. As I mentioned earlier I reset both to 1. Again, thanks for your help and patience.