I know this is not prototypical in any way but someone asked me the other day of I could put all my locos on the railroad and run them arround. Other than the ability to do it the only reason to put a group of locos on and run them is to run pieces you have not run in a long time. You could put them all on and let them run for an hour or so.
Well here in lies the question. How many locos cam my NCE PH Pro system support ?
Gary
I believe it depends on the current draw for each locomotive as well as the current draw for any other accessories you have on the layout that draw from the power station. At 5 amps, the general answer probably is...a lot.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
For laughs, I did that once. As bearman indicates, "a lot". A non-sound decoder only draws around 0.25 amps and a sound decoder around 0.50 amps.
Rich
Alton Junction
So, in rough terms, based on Rich's numbers, 10 to 20 locomotives. It would also depend on whether or not your layout has enough track and that it is configured in such a way as to preclude any collisions.
And if you decide to go through with it, I suggest you sit there next to a switch which will shut down the entire layout in the event of an impending collision.
Ok so it sounds like I can put all 18 of my sound decoder locos on and give it a go.
Can I harm the decoder or command station in any way?
What happens when you put too many on?
EDIT: I mean 10
gdelmoroI know this is not prototypical in any way
Maybe, maybe not. Jim Cramer said UP took 600 locos out of storage recently and people on Youtube webcams have seen big power moves lately.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
gdelmoroCan I harm the decoder or command station in any way? What happens when you put too many on?
each decoder will draw only a much power as it needs and is unaffected by all other decoders
the PowerPro command station will only provide as much current as it can and will shutdown automatically if the current exceeds 5A for more than 1/2 sec
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Thanks Greg
Even with sound, the biggest draw in the loco is still the mootor, sooo ones sitting there not moving only draw a small amount of current. Sound a bit more than non-sound, unless yoou have the sounds muted.
But 10 would be a small number for a 5 amp system. I ran 10 locos at a time, 5 with and 5 without sound, on my Digitrax Zephyr, which is rated for 2.5 amps. You should have no problem with 10 locos with twice the available power.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Thanks Randy. I have 18 so I’ll give it a go.
Take a video and show us how they run, especially if you consist them!
BigDaddyMaybe, maybe not. Jim Cramer said UP took 600 locos out of storage recently and people on Youtube webcams have seen big power moves lately.
Back in the 1990's the UP ran regular 25 unit power moves from LA to Chicago once a week because of a power/tonnage imbalance in the flows of engines.
I have seen 25-50 engine dead engine moves of engines going to be scrapped. The real problem moving a bunch of dead engines is getting all the brakes to work.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
For less than twenty dollars you can build this DCC amp meter using a Harbor Freight multimeter on the 20ma DC scale. The ZXCT 1009 does the conversion.
http://www.circuitous.ca/DCCammeter10.html
I built two about ten years ago. One for me, another for the club NCE five amp Power Pro system.
I had four of the meters at about two dollars a piece at the time and the kits cost me a few dollars each.
I remember we ran I think at least ten locos and I think about three amps at least half maybe more were sound.
I tested the system with a rheostat and it shut down at about 4.97 amps.
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Not sure about the PH Pro system, but I have a Power Cab and did damage it by running too many sound locos for too long a duration.
The folks at NCE were able to repair it at a reasonable price and advised me to either not run so many locos at a time or get a booster. At this time I am running fewer locos, but when I build my new layout, I will add a 5A smart booster.
Good luck,
Richard
cowmanNot sure about the PH Pro system, but I have a Power Cab and did damage it by running too many sound locos for too long a duration.
wow!
if something is rated at a specified current, i would expect it to work at that current non stop, not for some unspecified amount of time. Makes me wonder about other NCE products. I have a PowerCab.
our femtocell shuts down when temperature limits are exceeded.
gregc cowman Not sure about the PH Pro system, but I have a Power Cab and did damage it by running too many sound locos for too long a duration. wow! if something is rated at a specified current, i would expect it to work at that current non stop, not for some unspecified amount of time. Makes me wonder about other NCE products. I have a PowerCab.
cowman Not sure about the PH Pro system, but I have a Power Cab and did damage it by running too many sound locos for too long a duration.
Here is what NCE has to say about current draw as it relates to the Power Cab:
OTHER CONSIDERATIONS:
A) You cannot run 3 Amps continuously for the PowerCab. It will overheat with the PowerCab shell deforming due to the high heat build up. It is strongly recommended you use multiple DCC circuit breaker with each set 2 amp trip current for the layout. The PowerCab feeds all of these circuit breaker which then feed the various parts of the layout. The DCC circuit breakers will isolate any short circuit and protect the PowerCab from over heating when there is a short circuit.
B) The PowerCab long flat cable will lose a lot of voltage and may get warm when running a lot of trains. The cable and associated telco RJ jacks and plugs are not really designed to support 3 Amp efficiently.
Well... that was a mess! I didn’t want to change all the locos to 3 so I changed the recalls on the cab to 6. also the locos (except for 3 in a consist are not speed matched.
I was doing pretty good until I got to loco #7 (consist plus 4) then some started to get too close to others and I was recalling-recalling-recalling trying to adjust everything .
Finally I gave up. But it was fun. Probably wont do that again.
thanks Rich.
i like my PowerCab and other NCE products. But with the technology in such a product, I had expected it to protect itself ... completely. Now I have doubts.
The PowerPro documentation says that the PowerPro is rated at 5A and will shutdown if a short is present for more that 1/2 sec. It's unclear what it does if it operates at 6A for many minutes.
these products measure current and track time. couldn't they shutdown automatically if they are operated above their rated current for more than an accumulated period of time for some limited time (don't restart the timer if it momentarily drops below max current).
from the PowerCab doc: "You cannot run 3 Amps continuously for the PowerCab". How long can you operate it at 3A? When should you get worried? If heat is the problem, it would have been better if they added a temperature sensor.
Please don't interpret this criticism as slight against NCE products. I like my PowerCab and would buy other NCE products. But now I'm glad I added the bulb that limits current to 1.5A.
Ultimately this whole discussion is academic. In my opinion, if you are going to run 10, 20 or 30 locomotives you are going to make sure that your system can handle the current draw with some room to spare. It doesn't matter what brand you have.
https://ncedcc.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/201479815-Step-1-The-Power-Cab
The 1.65 manual on this page only mentions a 3amp powersupply being the max power supply that you can use. I did not find those words in the manual.
gregcWhen should you get worried?
Over 2amps, which is the stated capacity of the system.
gregcIf heat is the problem, it would have been better if they added a temperature sensor.
If you were running 4 locomotives (HO) or 8 (N) per the manual above, you would never have heat problems.
Heat is generated by resistance. Learn about Ohms law and Joule's first Law here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule_heating
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm%27s_law
Overheating is only a problem when you exceed the rated capacity of the system.
gregc thanks Rich. i like my PowerCab and other NCE products. But with the technology in such a product, I had expected it to protect itself ... completely. Now I have doubts. The PowerPro documentation says that the PowerPro is rated at 5A and will shutdown if a short is present for more that 1/2 sec. It's unclear what it does if it operates at 6A for many minutes. these products measure current and track time. couldn't they shutdown automatically if they are operated above their rated current for more than an accumulated period of time for some limited time (don't restart the timer if it momentarily drops below max current). from the PowerCab doc: "You cannot run 3 Amps continuously for the PowerCab". How long can you operate it at 3A? When should you get worried? If heat is the problem, it would have been better if they added a temperature sensor. Please don't interpret this criticism as slight against NCE products. I like my PowerCab and would buy other NCE products. But now I'm glad I added the bulb that limits current to 1.5A
Please don't interpret this criticism as slight against NCE products. I like my PowerCab and would buy other NCE products. But now I'm glad I added the bulb that limits current to 1.5A
The preferred method for adding more capacity to the Powercab is with the SB5 Smartbooster.
As I understand the Power Cab, it isn't really designed or intended as a mini version of the PH-Pro. Whereas the PH-Pro comes with its own 5 amp booster, the Power Pro is designed differently. It seems to me that NCE introduced the Power Cab as a "starter" system for guys with very small layouts and very few locos.
That's why whenever I get the chance to reply to anyone who is debating between the Power Cab and the PH-Pro, I urge them to purchase the PH-Pro. To effectively use the Power Cab on mid to large layouts, you should upgrade to a 5 amp booster, and if you follow NCE's advice, you wind up installing circuit breakers as well to protect the Power Cab.
Rich is correct, I believe. The Power Cab has been marketed as a starter set per his description. And, it makes no sense to spend all that money on a PH-Pro when you dont need all that amperage punch because of the size of your layout, the difference in MSRP being over 300$
And, circuit breakers make sense reagrdless of the DCC system that is being used.
gregc The PowerPro documentation says that the PowerPro is rated at 5A and will shutdown if a short is present for more that 1/2 sec. It's unclear what it does if it operates at 6A for many minutes.
Who is going to run any system at its rated capacity? I mean, I am not going to get on the German autobahn and drive my 200,000$ Ferrari at just below the red line, for two reasons. One, I don't own a Ferrari, and two I would be scared to go that fast.
of course you're not going to have these problem with a PowerCab if you add a booster or a circuit breaker.
richhotrain gregc The PowerPro documentation says that the PowerPro is rated at 5A and will shutdown if a short is present for more that 1/2 sec. It's unclear what it does if it operates at 6A for many minutes.
6A is not a short.
If I were to opine on exceeding the 5 amps, I would opine that at some point you have a gob of plastic which at one time was a Power Pro throttle.
bearmanIf I were to opine on exceeding the 5 amps, I would opine that at some point you have a gob of plastic which at one time was a Power Pro throttle.
huh?
The throttle would melt. But, then, I am not about to conduct an experiment along these lines.
i learn a lot from threads like this. thanks to all
heat is what typically damages electronic component (besides dropping them). Some transistor inside an integrated circuit gets too hot and melts.
Rich's post about the powercab shell deforming due to heat is the first I've heard of electronic equipment continueing to operate but the plastic melting.
and the temperature of the electronics depends both on the load and amount of heat it is generating and it's ability to disippate it. They will get hotter if the ambient room temperature is higher, the equipment is in a hot attic, on a sunlit shelf or a poorly ventilated area.
the manufacturer of that transistor may have it rated at some current that is determined such that 99.9...% of the parts won't fail at that current at the specified temperature.
that doesn't mean that they fail if the current is exceeded by 0.1A or even 1A, especially if the ambient temperature is cooler.
i realize that i was wrong in my original post. That at least the PowerCab and PowerPro, have short circuit protection for shorts that persist for 1/2 sec. This is not the same a protecting against exceeding the current rating of the unit.
The DB3 booster limit is vague
The DB3 requires a 14-18 Volt AC transformer (or 18-24 Volt DC power supply) capable of supplying 3 or more Amps.
at what point does it melt ;)
i'm surpised by the test for the EB1 circuit breaker
After setting the trip current we recommend testing your wiring. The “quarter test” is the fastest way to test your wiring. Use a coin or other piece of metal to short across the rails atvarious places in a power district.
if you set it for 2.5 amps, will is trip at 2.6?
not all components are the same. If you have a problem with a PowerPro supplying 5A, it sounds like NCE will repair or replace it. Most units can probably supply more than that. And they certainly shouldn't even start to melt if you just exceed the limit.
The PowerCan design is actually impressive. The electronics can exceed the "stated" capacity of 2A by 50%. The limiting factor is not the electronics, but the plastic. wow!
so, i now have a better understanding of the limitations of these products. I can now understand why some say you really need a circuit breaker.
i'm disappointed that NCE only has short circuit protection. I helped work on the protection firmware for our product. I see no excuse preventing products from self destructing with the technology in DCC products.
Greg, regarding your last sentence, like anything else, you get what you pay for. My guess is that the manufacturers (of anything for that matter) develop a product with an eye to a certain price point and a certain market. I am sure that the technology exists, or can be developed, to prevent a product from self destructing. But you are going to pay for that technology.