ATLANTIC CENTRALWell Kevin, your electrician is right, a 20 amp circuit is plenty for any "room sized" layout, even a "big room".
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To be fair, he said 15 amps would be enough, but for the type of hardware I wanted, and the key locking switch he said that the price difference would be less than $25.00 to make it 20 amp... so might as well do that. He said the jump to 30 amps would be much more expensive... and completely unnecessary.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
my basement room is 11x13 so I wiredit myself using an existing but unused 20 amp circuit and added another. I use seperate circuits for lighting and wall plugs/layout power. And yes use modern lighting, LED's, which draw lower amperage and produce less heat. I was finding the incandescents were generating too much heat in summer (I live in Georgia). Also did my research and read the code for my area. I found it not as hard as two rail wiring! best regards, andy chandler
SeeYou190 OK, I am going to jump into this one, even though I am more than a year from beginning construction of the layout room. . My electrician (I have an awesome electrician, his work on the kitchen and entertainment center have been A+) decided that a 20Amp dedicated circuit for the train layout will be sufficient. . The layout is going into an existing area, so it is already wired for wall outlets, overhead lighting, etc. The 20 amps additional it only for the layout. . The wall switch will be keyed, and the outlet where the layout plugs into the wall will be a twist lock type. All the layout legs will be Edsal steel legs as shown. . . All the power for lighting and the workbench will come from the existing circuits already in the room. My single story Florida house does not have a basement or attic. . The layout legs will all have convenience outlets built into them The Edsal legs are already punched out for duplex outlets in metal electrical boxes. . This allows me to unplug the layout when I am away eliminating any possible problems or worries while I travel. The key prevents unauthorized train operation if the (yet to be created) grandkids come over. The convenience outlets in the steel legs will be very helpful. . Does all this sound correct? Is this a bad plan? Am I missing something? . -Kevin .
OK, I am going to jump into this one, even though I am more than a year from beginning construction of the layout room.
My electrician (I have an awesome electrician, his work on the kitchen and entertainment center have been A+) decided that a 20Amp dedicated circuit for the train layout will be sufficient.
The layout is going into an existing area, so it is already wired for wall outlets, overhead lighting, etc. The 20 amps additional it only for the layout.
The wall switch will be keyed, and the outlet where the layout plugs into the wall will be a twist lock type. All the layout legs will be Edsal steel legs as shown.
All the power for lighting and the workbench will come from the existing circuits already in the room. My single story Florida house does not have a basement or attic.
The layout legs will all have convenience outlets built into them The Edsal legs are already punched out for duplex outlets in metal electrical boxes.
This allows me to unplug the layout when I am away eliminating any possible problems or worries while I travel. The key prevents unauthorized train operation if the (yet to be created) grandkids come over. The convenience outlets in the steel legs will be very helpful.
Does all this sound correct? Is this a bad plan? Am I missing something?
Well Kevin, your electrician is right, a 20 amp circuit is plenty for any "room sized" layout, even a "big room".
I think the key switch and the twist locks are over kill, but I would switch the circuit so you can kill everything on the layout with one switch.
Again, not sure I would use the metal legs, but I don't see a problem with that or the outlets mounted in them.
Sheldon
Atchee As a master electrician with 45+ years in the trade I get real nervous when people not specifically trained in the trade start offering any advice on residential or commercial wiring. ESPECIALLY in a forum not dedicated to the topic. I understand budget constraints, and have nothing against DIY work. BUT if you are doing the work unpermitted and don't know if your local jurisdiction has ammendments to the NEC, do yourself a favor and either ask an acquaintance that does know or pay somebody that does to look your stuff over. As an aside, a lot of places keep pretty detailed records about what has been permitted on a property. Nothing like getting ready to sell the place and have the home inspector check on improvements that were done, then the bank refusing to finance the buyer because there's no record of, say, a finished basement being permitted and inspected. Then you may wind up removing a bunch of drywall so framing, insulation, electrical, etc., etc. can be checked. After paying double for a permit and possible fines to boot. You wouldn't believe what I've seen a building department force someone to tear out. Just sayin'
As a master electrician with 45+ years in the trade I get real nervous when people not specifically trained in the trade start offering any advice on residential or commercial wiring. ESPECIALLY in a forum not dedicated to the topic.
I understand budget constraints, and have nothing against DIY work. BUT if you are doing the work unpermitted and don't know if your local jurisdiction has ammendments to the NEC, do yourself a favor and either ask an acquaintance that does know or pay somebody that does to look your stuff over.
As an aside, a lot of places keep pretty detailed records about what has been permitted on a property. Nothing like getting ready to sell the place and have the home inspector check on improvements that were done, then the bank refusing to finance the buyer because there's no record of, say, a finished basement being permitted and inspected.
Then you may wind up removing a bunch of drywall so framing, insulation, electrical, etc., etc. can be checked. After paying double for a permit and possible fines to boot. You wouldn't believe what I've seen a building department force someone to tear out.
Just sayin'
Having been an electrician and a home inspector at various points in my life, I'm happy that even here in the Peoples Republic of Maryland we have not gotten to that level of intrusive government yet.
I agree that people who lack the proper knowledge or skills should not be doing electrical work (or plumbing, or HVAC, or even carpentry for that matter), but just because someone is not working in a trade does not mean they lack the knowledge or skills.
Several counties here in Maryland have homeowner programs that allow homeowners to get their own permit and do their own plumbing and electric after a simplified test.
Your comment about unprofessional advice is why Ed and I spoke up earlier, too much mis-information.
Hello all,
MGAMike MGAMike So I sat down with my licensed contractor...
MGAMike So I sat down with my licensed contractor...
Glad to hear that!!!
Well done!
The proper authorities have been notified and a solution found.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
Very excellent. QO's are neat. I put in GE's, which I rather like.
Ed
7j43k Sounds good. Yeah, SOME electricians go totally nuts on their own places. Mine: 1914 Brown Shingle--74 breakers. Ed
Sounds good.
Yeah, SOME electricians go totally nuts on their own places.
Mine: 1914 Brown Shingle--74 breakers.
Sounds cool. I love all that pre 50's architecture.......
74 breakers, that sounds like this place, but you might have me beat by 5 or so. 40 ckt QO 200 amp main panel and three subs, one sub in the house and two in the garage. One of the two in the garage is just for the train room which is the second floor.......
That is why I used mostly 20 amp circuits, I knew it would fill up fast.......
7j43k Sheldon, I see. Pretty much saying the same thing, differently. I thought you might be saying it was an explicit statement in the code, which it doesn't seem to be. Ed
Sheldon,
I see. Pretty much saying the same thing, differently. I thought you might be saying it was an explicit statement in the code, which it doesn't seem to be.
No, it does not spell out the 600/750 sq ft numbers, but the code is pretty specific about the method of calculation.
Remember, that is the minimum requirement, you are welcome by code to have more circuits.
My 1901 Queen Anne is rewired to nearly commercial standards. Nearly all circuits are 20 amp (which contrary to some armchair experts, is completely legal), and in the case of bedrooms, typically 250 sq ft each, a single 20 amp circuit only serves two rooms.
So that is 4.8 VA per square foot.
I stapled every foot of wire, and turned every wire nut..........
7j43k ATLANTIC CENTRAL The restriction is the square footage of the building that a single circuit can serve, and/or the requirement of specific circiuts for special/dedicated loads. A 15 amp general receptacle circuit may serve 600 sq ft, 20 amp circuits may serve 750 sq ft. The number of devices is determined by other factors, wall arrangments, required spacing, etc. Sheldon I am not aware of that 600/750 sq ft "rule". Where would I find it? I know of the 3 watts per square foot general lighting load for dwellings. I believe you would then divide that total number by either 2400 or 1800 (20A or 15A) to get the required number of general lighting circuits. I believe you may apportion the required outlets any way you want on the resulting circuits. But I would recommend making them "evenly balanced", so as not to upset the inspector. Or the homeowner, for that matter. Ed
ATLANTIC CENTRAL The restriction is the square footage of the building that a single circuit can serve, and/or the requirement of specific circiuts for special/dedicated loads. A 15 amp general receptacle circuit may serve 600 sq ft, 20 amp circuits may serve 750 sq ft. The number of devices is determined by other factors, wall arrangments, required spacing, etc. Sheldon
The restriction is the square footage of the building that a single circuit can serve, and/or the requirement of specific circiuts for special/dedicated loads.
A 15 amp general receptacle circuit may serve 600 sq ft, 20 amp circuits may serve 750 sq ft. The number of devices is determined by other factors, wall arrangments, required spacing, etc.
I am not aware of that 600/750 sq ft "rule". Where would I find it?
I know of the 3 watts per square foot general lighting load for dwellings. I believe you would then divide that total number by either 2400 or 1800 (20A or 15A) to get the required number of general lighting circuits.
I believe you may apportion the required outlets any way you want on the resulting circuits. But I would recommend making them "evenly balanced", so as not to upset the inspector. Or the homeowner, for that matter.
From the 2002 NEC (because it is what I had handy, and I'm pretty sure it has not changed)
NEC - article 220.3(B) - paragraph (10) Dwelling Occupancies. In one-family and two-family, and multifamily dwellings and in guest rooms of hotels and motels, the outlets specified in (1), (2) and (3) are included in the general lighting load calculations of 220.3(A). No addtional load calculations shall be required for such outlets.
The 3 volt-amperes per square foot you are refering to comes directly from the NEC Table 220.3(A) refered to above.
So, separate from additional special loads and requirements (kitchens, baths, fixed hard wired equipment, etc), the general lighting and receptacle requirement for dwellings is 3 VA per square foot.
600 sq ft x 3 VA = 1800 VA / 120 = 15 amps.
750 sq ft x 3 VA = 2250 VA / 120 = 18.75 amps
Other related sections make it clear that these circuits do not need to be de-rated for these calculations.
oldschoolmarine PS:....... It's "...heed this advice..." Hey Teach Can we take the weekend off we all at one time or another live it that "Glass House"
PS:....... It's "...heed this advice..."
Hey Teach
Can we take the weekend off
we all at one time or another live it that "Glass House"
Perhaps if you had been maligned concerning your professional ability and competence, you would have been a bit huffy, too?
You do recall you have to do your assignments over the weekend! I want to see THREE weathered freight cars on my desk when we come back to school. And be SURE to copy little Eric over there.
The world has changed. We do not need all the power we used too, example, with regular incandecent a 15 amp could power 27 bulbs at 60 watts. With LED bulbs you can run more than 165. Opps, just looked at the latest ones I purchaced and now you can run 366 bulbs. I was happy with CFL's that were 13 watts instead of 60. AS far as other uses, I don't know about you but I use battery power for most tools.
betamax I do believe the term is "devices"
I do believe the term is "devices"
a "device" (in model railroad English) is a thingy you put in or on an electrical outlet that does not consume electricity
a "receptacle" is a subset of a device--it may receive an electical plug
Here, IIRC, the limit is 14 devices on a circuit, device being a fixture, outlet, or switch. But, the number of devices is limited by the current draw.
a "fixture" is not a "device"
An "outlet" is not a "device"
"Fixture" is not defined in the NEC. I'm surprised, but there you are. All the other terms above are.
If, at the city/county referred to as "here", it's 14 devices on a circuit, that is not in the NEC. It may be a local rule, but getting into local rules is kind of beyond the scope of the discussion.
OP is building the layout over a garage.
I think different rules come into play if the space is not considered "living space", fewer restrictions. Not sure if drywalling part or all of an above garage room qualifies it as living space. Better be safe than sorry, but was just talking about the rules.
- Douglas
A typical example:
If I build a house with three 12 x 16 bedrooms, apox 600 sq ft total. Each bedroom will have 56 feet of wall space (less doorways). The NEC requires an outlet every 12 feet around the walls, plus additional ones on isolated sections of walls between doors, etc. That is a minimum of 5 outlets per room, and more likely 6-7.
6 oulets x 3 rooms = 18 outlets on a 15 amp circuit
The fixed lighting for these rooms is also allowed on this circuit, for a total of 21.
And I can have outlets spaced closer if I desire, but I am not required to have additional circuits for them.
Kitchens, bathrooms and special loads have different rules........
Nearly every residential building in the US is wired this way.
Sheldon, you are correct.
The NEC does not limit the number of receptacles on a circuit.
Rich
Alton Junction
7j43k BRUCE E ROBINSON The comment from "electricians with 40 years experience" are chilling. All electrical installation work is governed by the National Electrical Code throughout the US and the sizing of equipment (panelboards, circuit breakers, wire, wiring devices, etc.) is determined by mandated calculations. You can not "put as many outlets as you want" on an electrical circuit. The number of devices is determined by circuirt breaker/wire size. On a 20amp circuit it is 10 and on a 15 amp circuit it is 8. There is also a maxium distance between outlets that comes into play. I base my comments on working as an electrical engineer for over 40 years. Please head this advise and do the right thing. Bruce Bruce, Please back up your comments with citation from the National Electrical Code--in particular your assertion that there is a limit to the number of receptacles on a general use circuit. Ed PS: It's "...heed this advice..."
BRUCE E ROBINSON The comment from "electricians with 40 years experience" are chilling. All electrical installation work is governed by the National Electrical Code throughout the US and the sizing of equipment (panelboards, circuit breakers, wire, wiring devices, etc.) is determined by mandated calculations. You can not "put as many outlets as you want" on an electrical circuit. The number of devices is determined by circuirt breaker/wire size. On a 20amp circuit it is 10 and on a 15 amp circuit it is 8. There is also a maxium distance between outlets that comes into play. I base my comments on working as an electrical engineer for over 40 years. Please head this advise and do the right thing. Bruce
The comment from "electricians with 40 years experience" are chilling. All electrical installation work is governed by the National Electrical Code throughout the US and the sizing of equipment (panelboards, circuit breakers, wire, wiring devices, etc.) is determined by mandated calculations. You can not "put as many outlets as you want" on an electrical circuit. The number of devices is determined by circuirt breaker/wire size. On a 20amp circuit it is 10 and on a 15 amp circuit it is 8. There is also a maxium distance between outlets that comes into play.
I base my comments on working as an electrical engineer for over 40 years. Please head this advise and do the right thing.
Bruce
Bruce,
Please back up your comments with citation from the National Electrical Code--in particular your assertion that there is a limit to the number of receptacles on a general use circuit.
PS: It's "...heed this advice..."
I would like to see that documention as well.
Having studied the NEC multiple times in my career as an electrician, electrical controls designer and electrical construction project manager, I have no memory of any such restriction.
If you budget 100W per device, 14 is 1400, or ~12A. Which is the limit for a 15A circuit.
That is changing due to LED lighting, because 20 LED lamps might consume 100-150W. But that has be planned and demonstrated that it will not overload the circuit (80% of rated current).
If the expected loads exceed 80%, then the circuit must be upgraded, or a second circuit added to keep everything within the limits.
Electrical codes are best practice, as determined over time and by experience.
General rule of thumb says a Mac of 80% of rated load is your max continuous load. So 16 amps on a 20 amp circuit should be your target
If this is going in your basement you'll need a main GFCI outlet above the water line. This is for when your basement floods. This is code in numerous states.
Lighting will be your biggest continuous load. You'll likely use led strips which given an even warm light at relatively low power. But don't be surprised if you quickly reach 30 amps for lighting alone because you have two levels and a large basement.
You'll want an area for shop work. 3x10' should do it and a dedicated circuit for it.
Then another circuit for accessories and boosters. I seriously doubt you would need over 10 amps at 16v which is 160 watts. Assuming 75% efficiency that's 213 W from the outlet for boosters.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
Good, fantastic!
Bear "It's all about having fun."
MGAMikeMGAMikeSo I sat down with my licensed contractor...
MGAMikeSo I sat down with my licensed contractor...
Thank you all for you advice. Knowing the potential amp draw for the layout allowed me to estimate how much load my new garage may see. So I sat down with my licensed contractor and decided that a 100 Amp service to the garage should do the trick. Typical 20 Amp circuit outlet spacing in the train room will handle the layout needs nicely.
Thanks again for your input and we will be breaking ground on the new garage and train room first week of June. I have a little more track plan designing to do, but hopefully I can begin benchwork construction in August.
Mike
I might be a bit off here but I would have a licensed professional do the estimating bearing in mind that its not just the layout you have to think about what about your workbench? Compute? Cell Phone Charger etc.
Joe Staten Island West