I can only tell you what I do. I use Digitrax, and on their web site, they have a decoder selector. It's drop-down list.
You pick the scale, you pick the brand or manufacturer, you pick what locomotive it is, and a list of Digitrax decoders that will work comes up, including sound options.
Maybe check the web sites of other manufacturers and see what they use to select a decoder.
The only manufacturer I have trouble finding a specific decoder for a specific loco, is ESU.
Mike.
My You Tube
ALL sound decoders have a way to hook up a speaker. On some, it's two wires coming out from the decoder separate from the harness used to connect the decoder to the engine. Sometimes, it's two of the wires connected to the harness, which may have up to nine color-coded wires coming out. (Keep in mind not all decoders are sound decoders! Some just control motion and lights but are silent.)
Some sound decoders come with a speaker as part of the deal, some don't. Those that come with a speaker generally have a two-pin mini-plug that is used to connect the speaker to the decoder, so you could unplug that speaker and plug in a different one. Thing is, different engines are going to require different sized speakers and enclosures. In HO, an E or F-unit diesel will probably be readily able to fit a 1" speaker, most narrow-hood engnes (GPs, SDs, Also RS's etc.) can fit a 1/2" by 1" oval speaker and enclosure. Generally, it works best to pick out the right decoder and separately the right speaker and enclosure for your engine.
BTW for best sound you will usually need a speaker and an enclosure, but some engines come with a built-in space for a speaker that usually doesn't require an added enclosure. In some cases, like say a steam engine with an opening in the floor of the tender for a speaker, the body of the model itself forms the enclosure.
A space between paragraphs would make that easier to read, at least for me.
I've not noticed the discrepacy between retailers and manufacturers. It seems to me the former just copies that later.
It would be nice if there were something like the Kadee guide for coupler installation geared toward decoders. That's never going to happen because the public has locos that are 30 years old and more. No decoder company can afford to test one of everything that has been built
I disagree with you that it has to come with a speaker. The biggest problem with sound installation in old locos is there is no room. Most of us don't have a milling machine handy. Sticking a sugar cube speaker in a RS3 cab is something you and I can do easily enough without expensive tools.
Yes you do need the knowledge and you better know if you are buying a sound loco or not. The one deal breaker in decoder installation is a loco with a very high stall current.
I knew less than nothing about DCC when I joined the forum 3 years ago. I've read every post about DCC whether or not it was my system or my era. A question like yours will generate a lot of opinions. I was influenced toward loksound pronounced lowk-sound not lock sound.
You want to standardize on one brand because even though there is a NMRA standard, there is enough leeway for proprietary options which will make your life confusing if you have 3 or 4 brands of sound decoders.
I wouldn't touch a QSI or MTH decoder because of problems that people have posted here.
The Lok Pilot means no sound. The Loksound 4.0 has more features than most of us need, like recording your own sounds and loading them on the decoder. The loksound direct select fits on a lot of old locos and the select micro fits on the very small ones. You need to ask the dealer for the sound you want installed on your decoder, as some sites don't make that clear. Or you can get a lokprogrammer and install downloaded sound files. Not a bad idea if you are going to have 10 sound locos.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I suspect there have been situations where a manufacturer upgrades their product, and a retailer's website still has the specs from the prior version listed on their website.
One thing to keep in mind is soldering. If you have engines without an 8, 9 or 21-pin receptacle, you may need to do a "hard-wire" installation. BTW "hard" just means you have to solder wires to like the motor leads etc., instead of a "soft" plug-and-receptacle installation...it doesn't mean "hard" as in "difficult" (necessarily). Also, as I mentioned, some companies have sound decoders and speakers with plugs so you don't need to solder wires from the speaker to the decoder. One factor to look at when choosing which decoder to use.
Overall, I'd advise reviewing what's available and trying to stick with one company's decoders. Each has plusses and minuses. ESU LokSound has superb sound, but can be very difficult / confusing to program if you want to change anything. TCS sound is maybe not quite as good (though still very good!) but is extremely easy to program - their "WowSound" like has a talk-back option with a narrator that takes you through setting up the decoder. Digitrax, like ESU, has sound decoders that allow you to download different sound files onto it, or you can buy ones with the sound already installed.
BigDaddy A space between paragraphs would make that easier to read, at least for me.
Sorry about that. When I wrote this in my word processor the spaces were there. When I copied and pasted it into this forum, the spaces were there. When I hit submit it came up without the spaces.
2002p51Sorry about that. When I wrote this in my word processor the spaces were there. When I copied and pasted it into this forum, the spaces were there. When I hit submit it came up without the spaces.
Yes, and that's going to be the problem with putting sound decoders and speakers into some engines not designed for them. The space just isn't there.
The problem of the huge number of choices in decoders is us. We all want different things. Some want really fine motor control, and other just want a cheap decoder, and others want great sound. Some of the manufacturer web sites will help. Others may require an e-mail to get an answer. But, you'll get the hang of it.
Sometimes, it's worth paying someone to install them, too.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Ah, words of wisdom from Mr. B, just now. The market drives what is freely available in the hobby. It gets confusing because no two of the buyers in that market want precisely the same thing. It's a very small market anyway with almost everything except small electronic components hand crafted and hand assembled.
Each importer/supplier crafts their product to suit their specifications. Yes, a 2-8-2 looks pretty much the same from the outside, but they're not the same under the boiler, in the tender, or in the cab. The frames are milled differently, the drives differ, and so the spaces differ. This limits what else you can do after-market-wise when you wish to modify the product in some way, or augment its functionality to you.
Some would say it's what makes the hobby interesting to them. For those of us who, like me, don't really have a hankering after building and bashing stuff, it's a bit of a minefield. We have to rely on the good will and thoughts of the other ilk who fortunately post here most days and share their experiences...the 'wrenches'.
I know I'm not the only one. A couple of weeks ago I traveled to a large Hobbytown USA two hours away that has a good railroad department. I wanted to see some of these decoders in person and maybe talk to someone more knowledgeable than I. They had nothing in DCC components and when I asked why I was told the DCC aftermarket is too vast, there are too many options, for a brick and mortar store to stock any sort of economically viable inventory. Just isn't possible to stock everything.
It's NOT that complicated. As others point out they make specialty decoders for specialty applications. Some decoders have more features or more stall current.
If you just want DCC with NO sound, then a TCS M1 (or M1-KA if you want to install Keep Alive) will fit in just about ANY HO locomotive. Or a Digitrax DN166 (6 output functions) or DN136 (3 output functions) will work with MOST HO scale locos. They all support 1 amp continuous. That is the vast majority of today's engines. Only old hobbytown or open frame brass motors consumed more than 1 amp.The NMRA 8 pin and 9 pin sockets are the easiest to install. But it's not hard to hardwire everything, even if there is a socket. It's simple, left pickup, right pickup, motor +, motor -, forward light + (blue wire), light ground, rear light+ (blue wire), rear light ground. Those connections are super easy to find. Just be sure to use the appropriate resistor on lights.Sound is another beast altogether. There are tradeoffs between being realistic operation (QSI), ease of programming (TCS/Soundtraxx), BEMF (Loksound) and how good it sounds (TCS for diesel or Soundtraxx for steam). Every brand has trade offs.Once you pick a brand though, STICK WITH IT. Trying to remember which button does what (like brakes) is a pain in the tail between manufacturers. Trying to fumble for the stop button at the end of the line with a large drift factor (CV4) is not fun.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
I keep it simple. Regardless if there is a factory board of some sort to plug a decoder in or not, I generally use a standard 9 pin decoder and wire it in, at least where I am not adding sound. At least for HO scale and up, this is a workable approach - the same decoder works in a DCC Ready loco or one that's not. In the end, this makes them all installed the same way - motor wires to the motor, track pickup wires to the track pickups, headlight wires to the headlights. No complications of hoping the factory board is wired correctly, or traces that need to be cut, or anything. I also happen to use all the same brand decoder in all my locos, but you can use anyone's, and with hard wiring you don;t have to worry about the form factor of the replacement board.
Sound, you have the additional worry of placing the speaker. The lest extra 'stuff' you have to work around, the more space there is for a larger speaker/enclosure. Though sometimes using the board replacement type means you have a palce to mount the speaker that keeps it out of the moving parts, namely on the circuit board.
There aren't specific loco matches for Loksound, especially select, ebcause they have basically 3 decoders. A regular size hard wired one, a micro size hard wired one, and a generic board form factor that fits most Atlas, Athearn, and Kato because those various locos all have a similar internal design.
TCS has lots of install pictures for various locos - but that doesn't mean you need to use a TCS decoder. If the picture shows an Atlas/Kato baord swap, you can use the Atlas/Kato board repalcement decoder from anyone and it will go in the same way.
N scale can be a bit tougher, because without millign tools, when there are board repalcement decoders, they tend to be fairly specific not just to a manufacturer (whereas in HO, most all of a given manufacturer's locos, at least from a certain time frame, are all the same inside, regardless if it's a GP7 or and RS-11 or a U-30C) but also to model - ie, the board that fits a Kato N scale SD40 might not be the same board that fits a Kato N scale GP30. And not every decoder manufacturer has every possible loco covered, so for loco A you might be able to find a decoder that fits from Digitrax or TCS, whereas loco B, only NCE has a decoder that fits.
Especially since you are just starting to add decoders to your fleet - do what I do and what Don recommends - try to stick to ONE brand for all your locos. It makes things a lot easier.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
It is not much different than buying a car or truck. They are all different.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Gary
Most decoder manufacturers have pictures and descriptions of decoder install in various engines. You might want to check these out. They might not have your specific engine, but the methods are generally the same.
You could also check Youtube for install videos.
DigitalGriffinOnce you pick a brand though, STICK WITH IT. Trying to remember which button does what (like brakes) is a pain in the tail between manufacturers. Trying to fumble for the stop button at the end of the line with a large drift factor (CV4) is not fun.
I think Don's suggestion is the most important piece of advice in the whole thread!
I have a variety of decoders from different manufacturers and trying to remember which function does what for which decoder is nearly impossible for me. It gets even worse (if that is possible) if I haven't run a locomotive for a while. I am sick and tired of having to read the manual every time I want to run an engine that has a different decoder in it. As funds permit, I will convert everything to the same manufacturer.
FWIW my decoders of choice are Loksound Selects by ESU. They sound great and their motor control is fantastic!!!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
garyaWhat scale are you in? Era? Steam or diesel? That information will help give better advice.
HO scale, transistion era, (1955-1965) one steam (so far) the rest diesels.
I am not pushing TCS, but they have a great set of installations of all kinds of loco's. And many guy's have posted installs on YouTube.
http://www.tcsdcc.com/Customer_Content/Installation_Pictures/HO_Scale/HO_Search/search.html
You just have to spend the time deeciding what you need and how much extra work is it going to take to get a speaker in a space where it wasn't designd to be.
And switching to sugarcube speakers instead of the larger speaker's can make the difference between frustration and a workable solution.
James in Texas
Just thought of another question that no web site seems to answer; can ANY decoder accept a speaker or are non-sound decoders just that?
2002p51 Just thought of another question that no web site seems to answer; can ANY decoder accept a speaker or are non-sound decoders just that?
Non-sound decoders have no output for a speaker.
My process for selecting decoders (non sound) is to first check to see if TCS has one that is an obvious choice, and then I check Digitrax and then NCE. If I cannot figure out which decoder will work best then I call Tony's Train Exchange and ask their advice on which decoder to purchase.
Modeling an HO gauge freelance version of the Union Pacific Oregon Short Line and the Utah Railway around 1957 in a world where Pirates from the Great Salt Lake founded Ogden, UT.
- Photo album of layout construction -
When I started building my layout 13 years ago, I went straight to DCC. I put a Digitrax DH123 into a subway train and I was off and running. I tried to resurrect a few old Athearn BB engines, and by "old" I mean Eisenhower administration, but had no luck getting them to run because they barely ran on DC. I picked up a couple of Proto GP9s from the Life-Like era and some more DH123 decoders and started to build a fleet.
Sound engines started to become an option, and I bought one, then another. Next, I was buying sound decoders as replacements and upgrades. For quite some time, I've only bought engines with sound installed. I think it's cheaper that way, and I don't have to install the decoders and speakers.
Yes, I would like to have commonality among my decoders, but it's not possible without a lot of effort. When you buy an RTR sound engine, you get the decoder that comes with it. I'm not going to replace a decoder just to get the button mapping that I'm familiar with.
When the NMRA wrote the standards, they were very careful to let the manufacturers decide how the internals would work. That was the way to go. Because of that, we have options in decoders, yet they all play together on our layouts. Is that not the best of all possible worlds?
Decoders have evolved over time. They are not all the same, and never will be. The good news is that they keep getting better.
That's why I usually buy the DC versions and add my own decoders. Depending on what brand sound loco you buy, they often have cut down limited feature versions of the sound decoder anyway. With more manufacturers switching to ESU, there are at least some I can buy the factory sound versions.
I consider the Loksound 3.5's in my PCM locos close enough, not needing repalcement. I had only one factory equipped Tsunami loco and I traded that for a Loksound version. Newer Bowser locos have Loksound, as do Atlas. I do still have one Atlas sound loco with a QSI decoder. I have two other sound decoders just sitting in a drawer that will never get used. An original Digitrax Soundbug, and an MRX that purports to be an Alco 244 for an RS3. The SOundbug I may wire up with an Arduino controller to use as an under layout sound generator, but really a simple MP3 shield will do the job AND sound better.
It is a definite learning curve for me, but that turned out to be good. This (2012, UP) layout is my 3rd, with huge gaps, and I also decided on DCC, wanting sound with it. My test loco was a Genesis (Tsunami) GP9, sort of my base case. I bought some BLI sound locos, including Mikado & Mountain steam that I wanted. Then a few others.
I soon learned that the various locos I might want for interest or variety, in UP colors, were typically not in current production, much less with DCC/sound choice. So I got familiar with EBay, finding lots of (new or nearly so) UP locos of interest to me, some with DCC/sound but many with neither.
I decided to convert some candidates I wanted. An early one was a Kato DC RS-2, with an 8-pin plug, so my 1st conversion was to add a motor only decoder. (It later got converted to sound.) I chose a TCS motor decoder as it was one of the brands noted here for relatively good motor control. I then added Tsunami DCC w/sound to a Bachmann 2-8-0, which got me into choosing a speaker. I then decided that I did not like the (original version) Tsumani sound in my GP9 so I tried a LokSound Select (for better recordings and good motor behavior) and my first custom speaker; i.e., a styrene enclosure with dual micro / i-phone / sugarcube speakers. I liked that to the point that I decided my go-to decoders (with sound) would be the LokSound Selects. (I do not wish to make my own sound files with the V.4s but I do enjoy being able to have a wide selection of sound files.)
Since then, my definite preference (just me) is to acquire a DC version of a loco I like and then add my preferred decoder and add an optimal speaker (it can make a big difference) for the room allowed. In essence, I enjoy the conversion work as a favorite activity, just like some folks enjoy another task, such as scenery.
To narrow things down (not intending to start a debate), I suggest you look into 3 brands of sound decoders (TCS, LokSound Select and Soundtraxx Tsunami2) and understand the those differences to get started, especially if converting DC locos on your own. And take it as a learning curve.
One brand would be TCS, which was known for motor control earlier and whose newest WowSound line receives some quite good reviews and where you can find "kits" for given locos; i.e., decoder, speaker and even Keep Alive (capacitors for current interruption) feature. I suggest you weigh that against my preferred LokSound Selects (3 versions) with speakers of your choice. My 3rd candidate would be newest Soundtraxx Tsunami2, which I am including as it may be improved over the original Tsunami, which many found disappointing on sounds such as diesel horn. Or it may offer better steam sound recordings than the LoksSound??? I do not know if the new version improves on motor control, where TCS and LokSound got higher marks (most opinions) in earlier years. Thus, my bias is to start with trying the WowSound or the Select, Tsunami2 alternate.
But I am not throughly familiar with which brands offer the best/most accurate sounds for a particular loco, whether diesel or steam. That issue might drive you to a unique choice for a given loco. Obviously, I am intentionally leaving out some brands and have my bias towards LokSounds but with an interest in TCS WowSounds as well. Add Digitrax if you want to compare 4 brands. It's all up to you.
And, a conversation with the right person at Tony's Trains can't hurt. They can be very helpful.
To add an important complexity to your issue (decoder selection), please do realize that speaker differences (including the enclosure) can be quite significant. Down the road, you may want to invest some time in coming up that part of the learning curve. IMHO, it may be as important as the decoder. As an example, some of the micro speakers can far outperform the typical oval in HO hood units. And enclosure volume is a rather big deal as it makes a substantial difference. My go-to's are 1 or 2, 1.1" HiBass speakers in cab units (E units have lots of room) and/or (stronger preference) custom multi-micro speaker arrangements, in largest possible enclosure. My good fortune is having an acquaintance with a milling machine, so some modest weight reduction (in diesels) often can enhance enclosure volume options.
Good luck with the learning, and do not be shy to ask more questions, here or in a later thread.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
Thanks Paul, lots of good advice and information there. Appreciate it.
I kind of ran into the same problems.
I have wired everything for both DC and DCC. Even put in a panel with 4 jacks and 2 plugs, the 2 plugs to connect the track for the 2 branches. The 1 jack for DCC and one for DC for the main branch, 1 jack DCC and one for DC for the mountain branch. So I can separate which branch runs either DC or DCC or both either way.
When I started to put in Digitrax decoders (non sound) I found hardly any of my locos had any plugs existing. So started wiring up the NMRA 8 pin plugs. Got 2 of them finished and just to see if they still worked on DC I tried them with the decoder installed. Nothing. Then I find out not all decoders operate the same on DC. So take a higher threshold voltage while others will take lower DC voltages.
Since I'm not really ready to go full DCC, I pulled the decoders and kind of lost insterest for the present time and added jumpers on the 8 pin plugs for DC only.
Pretty much all DCC decoders have a CV setting regarding whether you want to allow the decoder to function on DC or not. Sometimes if you're having a problem running an engine on DCC, setting the CV so the engine can't run on DC solves the problem. Normally the default setting is to allow DC operation, but it may be there are decoders that come from factory set not to allow DC operation. If you installed such a decoder and tried the engine on DC, nothing would happen.
Normally, sound decoders draw a lot more power than a regular decoder, so on DC takes more voltage to operate. However, in my experience, a regular (non sound) decoder in a DC engine doesn't affect how the engine runs very much if at all. Note however if you change a CV on the decoder, it could affect the engine on DC, like if you adjusted CV 5/6 down so the engine ran slower on DCC, it often will run slower on DC also.
p.s. note that if you install an 8-pin receptacle, it's possible to install the decoder the wrong way around - normally the engine will work, but it will go backwards instead of forwards and the lights won't go on. You can't do that with a 9-pin receptacle that is usually used in a "hardwire" installation, since the decoder can only fit in the harness one way.
You're not "late" to the DCC party. I converted my 1st layout and soon thereafter moved. One of my biggest fears was removing the Athearn shell without damaging everything. I then used Youtube to see how to install a decoder and read here about starter ones. Digitrax is perfect for what you need. It is shockingly simple to install and no need to get over-complicated with sound.
Perhaps get a starter decoder without sound to start and then work up to one with all the bells and whisles. These are great features to have but they don't matter when a train sits still.
To expound on what was already said, non-sound decoders not only do not have connections for speakers, but they also do not have sound files.
Typically, you will find that a DCC/sound decoder will run in the (ballpark) $80-120 depending on if it has a speaker included and brand.
TCS Wow-kits come with everything for the specific locomotives listed.
One suggestion I would make is this. If you usually run consists of two or three locos and usually keep them together, you can remove all or part of the weight of the lead or sound loco, and get lots of room.