Am running a N scale layout with Digitrax components and Kato track on a blue foam base. My command station is a (DCS240) and I have short circuit protection via several PM42's. However, I know that murphy is always lurking nearby and I am concerned if I have some major failure that leads to an overheated situation on my layout such that I do not notice it right away.
I checked on flammability of blue foam (my situation) and reports imply that an electrical fire will melt the foam but not trigger a fire. For my safety sake, I am going to assume that a fire can be triggered by an electrical hot spot. Other than killing the power, what type of fire extinguisher would be appropriate to keep handy around a layout?
Also, in my checking, I noted that bare foam such as used in layouts is not allowed by most building codes. Must be covered by some flame retardant material such as sheetrock. My layout is not in my home so I am not violating code but I will bet that more than a few people here would not want the fire inspector to visit their layout.
Paul D
N scale Washita and Santa Fe RailroadSouthern Oklahoma circa late 70's
PEDOther than killing the power, what type of fire extinguisher would be appropriate to keep handy around a layout?
Halon*: (Halotron)
https://amerexfireextinguishers.com/collections/halon-1211
From people I know in the electronics and computer fields, halon* is the recommended type.
*Or its "clean agent" recommended derivatives.
Good Luck, Ed
Well, if your really worried about it, get the halon extinguisher that Ed links to.
Good greif, there have been many threads on here about the dangerous, life threatening chemicals that some use for track cleaning, etc.
So now, those of us that have used ridgid foam for our base, should now loose sleep over worrying about a sudden catastrophic fire.
Then I would say, use something else, that you feel safe with, for your layout.
So what would a "fire inspector" have to say about what's in YOUR garage, and basement, besides your layout with foam ?
Mike.
EDIT: And, if your truly worried about it, what happens if your not there? OMG. Get a halon fire extingusher system installed.
My You Tube
The foam in a layout is different then if on the wall. Same foam, different use, different codes or none at all. Walls and upright things are easier to start on fire and will burn faster and hotter then foam layed down.
Oh dear God people, you're going to use Halon for basement layouts? Better get the old will up to date; fire a Halon system off in a confined space and you will lose consciousness and asphyxiate before you can think about feeling strange. That probably applies even to handheld systems of sufficient capacity.
Situation a bit different if you can arm the system to actuate only when no one is in the basement or otherwise in a place where they might be suffocated by heavier-than-air vapors blanketing them. But be VERY sure you can't be surprised in any reasonably foreseeable circumstance.
There may be caveats to using some kinds of dry chemical extinguishing in confined spaces with low assured ventilation. Do the research before implementing any 'technology'.
I also think it would have to be an airtight room, that the system is in. And if your in that room when it goes off, good night.
And don't forget your hard hat for when the sky falls
Uhh, has anyone considered having a MAIN SWITCH that cuts all power to the layout and it's associated power draws, when you're not there cut the power ergo no fire risk as to if you're there and a fire happens is there a respirator that would filter the halon? (Edit: you would need an actual oxygen tank not a respirator, think of halon like water you put water in an empty bucket it displaces the air same with halon so a respirator doesn't work underwater or in halon.) Otherwise may I suggest a fire blanket? Use it to smother the flames?
Steve
If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!
A Co2 extinguisher is a better bet because you'll know to get out of there because you'll start choking and yawning but for maximum safety I'd use a blanket or a CO2 bomb for fire extinguishing, in the event of fire toss it towards the fire and run!
Yes, do not use Halon in an habitable enclosed area. The fire may go out, and your house not burn down, but you will be dead anyway. Since there are so many varied materials in most layouts, an ABC type extinguisher is the best option.
Many years ago there was a web site wher ethey did variou burn tests of blue and pink foam. A hot soldering iron for example, cause the foam to melt back until the space around the heat source was enough that the edges were no longer above the melting point of the foam. They tried setting it on fire and failed in most any way tried. Even exposing the foam to the flame of a torch just metled a big hole in it. I no longer have a link to it, or even know if the site still exists, but whem foam first got popular (probably 5 years or so after the MR articles by Bill Darnaby) there were almost as many posts here about how the foam will burn up and kill you are there are hobby is dying posts. Especially after seeing the results of experiments from that site, the foam on my layout catching fire was the least of my worries.
Plus I do use a master power switch. NOTHING in the layout room stays powered up when no one is there. There are some people who constantly leave their DCC system turned on - I have no idea why you would do this. Shut everything off when you leave and the only worry you will have is the same as any other home wiring - in other words, there's no greater likelihood of the layout catching fire as any other place in your home.
ANd have smoke detectors. That are tested known working.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I have 3 60lb extinquishers. One by the door Where the master power switches are. One by the spray booth. And one in the far corner where the trip out is the longest. the layout has its own building. And the electrical i wired through a set of master switches so theree is no power past that point when not there. There is the breakers in the garage and a second master kill switch in the house. It does both the garage and railroad building
A pessimist sees a dark tunnel
An optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel
A realist sees a frieght train
An engineer sees three idiots standing on the tracks stairing blankly in space
A A,B,C Co2 fire extinguisher will handle any type of fire.
Don't go cheap,be sure to buy the ones with the gauge so you can monitor the pressure and have it refilled as needed.
As far as Halon..Remember this warning sign:
Halon=halo In the event of fire leave the room immediately!
BTW..Aim the extinguisher towards the bottom of the flames.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
NWP SWP A Co2 extinguisher is a better bet because you'll know to get out of there because you'll start choking and yawning but for maximum safety I'd use a blanket or a CO2 bomb for fire extinguishing, in the event of fire toss it towards the fire and run!
I have used Co2 extinuishers without any issues..Don't know where you got your information from.
I have a master switch, so nothing is on when I'm not in the room. It's just a power strip, but the on/off switch lights up in red when it's on. You can't miss it when you turn off the overhead lighting, as I leave the room.
rrinker Many years ago there was a web site wher ethey did variou burn tests of blue and pink foam. A hot soldering iron for example, cause the foam to melt back until the space around the heat source was enough that the edges were no longer above the melting point of the foam. They tried setting it on fire and failed in most any way tried.
Many years ago there was a web site wher ethey did variou burn tests of blue and pink foam. A hot soldering iron for example, cause the foam to melt back until the space around the heat source was enough that the edges were no longer above the melting point of the foam. They tried setting it on fire and failed in most any way tried.
I think you were thinking about scaletree.com. I found that site when i was checking out the subject. They basically concluded that blue/pink foam would burn but not on its own. You need to keep applying flame to burn it. Remove the flame and it would self extinguish.
Not meaning to poke anyone in the eye. I was unaware of the earlier discussion topics on the subject. My layout is NOT in my house. It is in a trailer in back yard of a rural unincorporated area with no building codes. Killing the power and smothering with a blanket may be my best approach unless the wooden structure somehow starts burning.
CO2 is not so good on class A fires.
All fire extinguishers discharge at high power and will blow most of your scenery away.
No household extinguisher will work on class D or Class E fires, but then it is not likely that you will have any of these materials in your trainroom. Same gaurantee not offered on the realroads.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
I wired AC circuits into the benchwork which splits into 3 circuits feeding power strips. Master power switch with indicator light built into benchwork readily visible when leaving the room and I always turn it off. Fire extinguisher kept on first floor in the garage. FYI.........Anyone with a Kidde fire extinguisher....there is a recall and free replacement. I had 2 unit’s replaced in December 2017. I had the original units for decades going back into the seventies. Google Kidde recall and see if your units are eligible as this effected millions of units due to mechanical failure to spray. They come Fedex with return label for your convenience. Pay particular attention to those soldering irons and stay safe. The conversation here has got me thinking about smoke detectors downstairs in garage.
For a typical electrical fire, I would pull the plug (or breaker) and use an ABC rated fire extinguisher. They are effective for electrical fires and typically use a dry chemical (Sodium Bicarbonate) which releases CO2 smoothering the fire and denying it oxygen.
As soon as the fire is out, evacuate. That foam releases toxic gas which is why it's against code.
Halon would work, but halon is used in the most extreme conditions where you are worried about electronics. And Halon will fill the air with non-breathable air. Halon is typically reserved for specialty fires like computer server rooms.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
As far as foam goes, for the most part the stuff just melts. I used beaded foam for my last layout and tried to set it on fire. Tried direct electricl shorts, souldering irons and burnning matches of which only the burning match cought the foam on fire in the least bit and even then it went out as soon as the wood burned and never burned outside the area burning on the match (remember this is the most flamable of the foams.
I've been a firefighter for almost 14 years now, with a background in Fire Protection Engineering, building code and life safety system compliance. Hated the FPE field as a career so I tried working in radio communications (RF / Public Safety two way radio), tried the railroad thing until I got furloughed, ran a tow company for five more years, and now I just make saw blades for a small manufacturer because it's easy.
You need to find an appropriately rated Type ABC extinguisher for your layout space. What do I mean by rated? Look at the type of materials you have "finished", "stored", and "near by" that you're going to attempt to protect with an extinguisher.
The "A" rating covers ordinary combustibles. The wood, paper, masking tape, most of the "building" type materials on your layout. The foam falls into the "A" rating in it's normal state, but if it startes to melt to liquid (such as when exposed to heat and certain chemicals) it falls into the "B" category.
If you're storing lots of paints, paint thinner, other flammable chemicals, and other things under your layout for model building, that's the "B" rating on the extinguisher.
The "C" Rating covers your CHARGED Electrical. Take power away and those electrical items are now "A" items.
Please, please, PLEASE do not attempt to find "HALON" anything for use in your home. Halotron is it's replacement, although much more costly than say your standard ABC Dry-Chemical type extinguisher.
NWP SWP Uhh, has anyone considered having a MAIN SWITCH that cuts all power to the layout and it's associated power draws, when you're not there cut the power ergo no fire risk as to if you're there and a fire happens is there a respirator that would filter the halon? (Edit: you would need an actual oxygen tank not a respirator, think of halon like water you put water in an empty bucket it displaces the air same with halon so a respirator doesn't work underwater or in halon.) Otherwise may I suggest a fire blanket? Use it to smother the flames?
Young Steven, your first message struck a few points that need to be corrected immediately. For a class C fire, your fire blanket is not going to stop the spread. The only way to stop the spread of an electrical fire is to de-energize the circuit... or the fire burns itself out when there's nothing left to burn. You pick.
Halon isn't a single product. There's multiple agents, multiple delivery methods (liquid vs air), and many systems such as server rooms, data centers, etc that still have it, the primary means of safety after discharge is simple evacuation.
Furthermore, you don't need an "oxygen tank". Please, friend, don't add things to this conversation that you have little to no experience with. You're out of your league on this one, respectfully.
Again, this is bad information. A CO2 extinguisher doesn't contain enough product to rapidly disruspt your immediate atmosphere. And with products potential in the A, B, and C, fire classes, it wouldn't be my choice for an extinguishing agent. Most (if not all) CO2 extingishers have a 0 A rating, and are B:C only.
You're spreading bad information.
To the OP, my suggestion would be to keep a few 20 pound ABC dry-chemical type extinguishers handy. I don't know the whole size of your layout, but a 20 pounder is a good start. If you have a small hobby area where you're doing painting and other things, keeping a small 2.5 pounder (think kitchen type extinguisher) near by while you have paint/thinner/acetone/whatever out in the open is a good bet.
Yes, the dry chemical agent can be corrosive, and will wreak havoc on your scenery. But we're talking about a FIRE. Would you rather lose the whole layout, building, house, whatever to a fire, or limit the damage to where you sprayed an extinguisher?
Maintenance for the dry-chemical type extinguishers is pretty simple. Make sure the pin is in place. Make sure the extinguisher is charged (inspect the gage if equipped - should be in the green zone). Flip/Rotate the extinguisher to move the product around inside so it does not settle; if a metal bodied extinguisher, turn upside down and hit the bottom with a rubber mallet to break up any solidified product.
And for your viewing pleasure: Fire Extinguisher Safety
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rrebell As far as foam goes, for the most part the stuff just melts. I used beaded foam for my last layout and tried to set it on fire. Tried direct electricl shorts, souldering irons and burnning matches of which only the burning match cought the foam on fire in the least bit and even then it went out as soon as the wood burned and never burned outside the area burning on the match (remember this is the most flamable of the foams.
GraniteRailroaderTo the OP, my suggestion would be to keep a few 20 pound ABC dry-chemical type extinguishers handy. I don't know the whole size of your layout, but a 20 pounder is a good start. If you have a small hobby area where you're doing painting and other things, keeping a small 2.5 pounder (think kitchen type extinguisher) near by while you have paint/thinner/acetone/whatever out in the open is a good bet. Yes, the dry chemical agent can be corrosive, and will wreak havoc on your scenery. But we're talking about a FIRE. Would you rather lose the whole layout, building, house, whatever to a fire, or limit the damage to where you sprayed an extinguisher?
Good answer!
protection against fire
while we're on the subject......how about some working smoke alarms in all areas (except kitchen, bathroom and garage) of your home to alert you to the presence of fire when you're not looking
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I suggested Co2 after doing a little research on google, a gaseous oxygen displacement extinguisher would be less destructive to scenery. And the blanket was for the resulting scenery fire once the power had been cut.
I did do some reading on the subject before commenting.
But others more experienced in this field would be a better source of info.
ABC type extinguisher.
NEVER would I look for a Halo extinguisher... I like breathing to much!
But by the time my foam layout is actually burning, I would be suggesting getting professional help from the FD, as by that point, it's too big for most home sized extinguishers anyways. As was mentioned, foam takes quite the fire to actually start burning. (Except when the fire can climb the standing foam.)
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
A few random thoughts from a construction professional who grew with a fire fighter......
Smoke detectors, preferably 120volt with battery backup, linked to a central station alarm.
Portable ABC extinguishers in logical locations.
Good practices regarding clutter and flamable liquids.
Therapy for compulsive worrying about things that seldom happen.
Note to all (at least here in the US), no code official, fire marshal, fire inspector, building inspector, etc, has any authority to just enter your home against your will and do some random "check" of your home, stuff, layout, etc.
If you can't put it out in two minutes - GET OUT.
Sheldon
Ok, has anyone ever had an electrical fire caused by a poorly wired layout?
Bear "It's all about having fun."
Can't say I've ever heard of one. And before someone trots out John Allen - that was caused by a balky heater that John knew to shut off after finishing an op session, but the people who came over for one last run after his death didn't.
bearman Ok, has anyone ever had an electrical fire caused by a poorly wired layout?
The odds are like hitting the lottery for the big payout.
Yes, DCC poses some new questions about ampacity and short circuits, but even so the power/heat levels are well below those commonly considered a fire hazard.
That is why you don't have to hire an electrician, and the wiring of your layout is not covered by the National Electrical Code.......
I still use DC, I have 10 throttles at 5 amp each, each with its own overload protection. 5 amps x 13.8 volts = 69 watts, not enough heat to make a piece of toast.
And, no foam on my layout anyway.
I work in construction and we don't use that stuff......
anyone else know of a layout caused fire?