Suddenly might be an overstement as I've been in build mode the last few weeks and always have music playing as I work, but I've just noticed all my locos are buzzing quite loudly once they get past about 30 on my Digitrax throttle. I'm using a Digitrax DCS 240 command station/booster. I've got 15 locos, and all of them buzz: my first purchase (MTH Alco PA A-B set), my cheapest purchase (Bachmann sound value RS1), my most recent (BLI Challenger)--and everything in between, they all buzz loud enough to be heard over the speaker sounds (I set all max volumes at about 40%, so they are relatively quiet). Heres some more detail:
I dont know what else to try. My locos sit on powered-down rays around a turntable when not in use, so the chance of an errant programming command getting sent to all of them is almost zero. It almost sounds like they need lubrication (but its more of a buzz than a grind). But 15 locos of varying age/use suddenly needing maintenance all at once is crazy. Which leads me to this thought: can humidity cause this sort of thing? It's been a thousand below zero here (and everywhere) lately. Layout room is always at 72 degrees, but when it's this cold, it's dry as a bone everywhere in the house.
I'm hoping you DCC Jedi Masters have some ideas to try. As always, I appreciate all input and advice.
It's not too likely that humidty or lack thereof would cause this. What exactly is buzzing, is it the motors, or the gears? If it's the gears, maybe all the grease did dry up.
That it's all locos, and happens on two different command stations, it's not the signal coming out of either of those.
That leaves the decoders - but something to affect all 15 is about as likely as me winning Powerball. A continuous buzz like a DC loco on DCC would be like there was some connection directly between track and the motor, however this would fry the decoders. And even a mistaken program on the main to address 00 that would do something like disable silent running shouldn;t do this because the CV isn;t the same on all decoders.
Have you tried doing a reset on the system? OpSw 39 (might be OpSw 40 on the DCS240)? It could be that somehow you managed to enable one of the alternate protocols that Digitrax can generate, like Marklin.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
The buzzing sounds like the motor— hard to pinpoint but it just sounds more electrical than mechanical (closest analogy would be an electric razor)—but it gets louder as speed increases so in that respect seems almost gear related. I’ll try the command station reset tomorrow morning. Also will factory reset a few decoders. I will also open up the worst offender—my BLI PAragon 2 NW2 switcher, and grease/lube the gears. It’s an odd egg to crack for sure.
On an aside Randy, you are a JMRI guy, right? I tried to reset CV8 to 8 on that BLI switcher, but Decoder pro wont allow me to change that CV. So I used the single CV thing in the Action menu, that seemed to accept the change, but now that loco is unresponsive to 03 as well as it’s previous 4 digit address. Odd.
Giving it a rest for tonight, and now I‘m just getting more irritated that the Patriots will probably go to the conference playoff (and more) again. All respect to the Patriots, but some variety in the Super Bowl would be nice.
The correct way to do a reset with JMRI is to open the roster entry and then in the top menu select Reset (it's to the right of 'menu'). That will bring up a dropdown menu, click on Factory Reset and a box will open giving one or more choices depending on the decoder.
Peter
Good tip in the JMRI decoder reset. I was not aware of that.
Meanwhile, I may have found the culprit. And if I'm right, it's probably very, very bad. I asked myself "what changed since I noticed the buzzing?"—I had added a bunch of scenery around my engine terminal. And I used some Arizona Rock and Mineral GN Empire Builder Basalt ballast.
This morning I ran a magnet around my track to see if any gunk might be causing some weird interference, when I got to the terminal, all of a sudden I get these little black specks all over the magnet. So I go back to the scenery shelf, stick the magnet in my tub of GN Empire Builder Basalt ballast, and its instantly covered with the stuff. It's magnetic! Not just a few magnetic particles, ALL of it is magnetic. Whaaaaaat??!! It's labelled as mainline ballast so no idea why it would be magnetic. Very odd as Arizona R&M seems to have a very good reputation. Their website is down right now so I cant check to see if I missed some sort of disclaimer about magnetic particles.
I hope I'm wrong but its possible all my loco's magnetic parts have sucked up bits of that stuff while moving in and out of the terminal, and I'm not hearing a buzz, I'm hearing a grind—from the worst possible places. That would explain why they all started getting noisy at the same time, and why they were noisy with a different booster on a test track in another room.
The locos have been moved and layout is shut down until I figure this out. Does this magnetic particle mayhem sound like a plausible explanation? If anyone could point me to some resources/videos of how to do this type of cleaning, that would be great. I've never done anything more involved than basic lubrication, and I dont even know where to start looking for those particles, other than everywhere. I've got a few F units (my Athearn set is particularly noisy), might be simplest locos to start with.
Well that can certainly cause weird things if it's stuck all over the motors. It will also stick to speaker magnets and likely cause distortion on the sound units, as well.
rrinkerWell that can certainly cause weird things if it's stuck all over the motors. It will also stick to speaker magnets and likely cause distortion on the sound units, as well.
Not to mention increased resistance between the rails!
Can you isolate the engine terminal and check the resistance between rail A and B?
I found out some years ago, much the same way you did, that a bunch of the Highball brand cinders I have had lots of ferrous gunk in it. Fortunately I discovered this before I used any on track. I now have it labeled "Not For Ballast Use!"
I also followed a suggestion by RR Mel and made a magnet pick-up car using a neodymium magnet glued to the underside.
IMG_7270_fix by Edmund, on Flickr
Of course, once glued in place, a magnet won't help in this case.
Good Luck, Ed
I’m going to build a magnet car this week. Engine terminal is on it’s own power (one leg of a PM42), I’ll try to do some resistance measurements tomorrow night. Meanwhile, that magnetic stuff is spread all over the place around the turntable and ray tracks—- so the entire yard has become a magnet. So I need to scrape it all out of there. Ugh. From now on I will stick a magnet in any scenery material before it goes on the layout. Just to be safe.
You guys have given me a lot of things to investigate and/or fix here, so might be a few days before I post a progress report. Hopefully Mel is right and there’s nothing in the motors. I appreciate all the input!
My entire layout may be magnetized. The Vikings won. All is well.
I just checked my Arizona Ballast GN Basalt, and it's not magnetic. It's still in the bags. I don't see any black specks, either.
Ed
This magnet will pull the Titanic of the bottom of the ocean. It cost $4.00 at the auto parts store. Every once in a while I move it along the track with my fingers between the track and the rail, my fingernails sliding on the rail. I can't believe the crap it picks up and I wonder how a lot of it even gets there.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Wow, this forum never disappoints. I never thought of the issue but I will have a magnet car by week's end! And, I'll check my ballast before installing. I knew there was a reason for procrastinating.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
Not sure I’m doing this right (I’m a novice at best with electrical things), but with track power off and all Locos and lit passenger cars removed from the layout, I measure about 20K ohms, some areas as low as 18.5, others as high as 22. Engine terminal tracks read within this range. BTW, it takes about 20 seconds for a reading to stabilize. I’ve got an Innova 3320 meter, if that matters.
Heres what happens when I stick a magnet into my tub of ballast. Yikes! Incidentally, when you wet and glue this stuff down, it dries much darker than it was in the bag, almost black.
IMG_1508_2000px by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/131230956@N05/]
A resistence measurement wiuth the DCC syste, connected is just reading the output stage of the booster. It takes a long time for the reading to stabilize because there is a capacitor or two in there. You need to disconnect anything attached to the track to get a valid readong - it should end up being infinite ohms, open circuit. If it's anything significant, say below a few megaohms, then it starts to be a concern - although too low and it's just a dead short on the DCC system, a high enouhg value and it's just putting some additional load on the system. Neither condition will make all the locos buzz though.
That would seem to be something you wouldn't want to apply to the layout, based on how much sticks to the magnet. And they laugh at Woodland Scencis supposedly being made out of walnut shells - well, I've never seen a walnut shell that was magnetic!
So to get an accurate resistance reading, I should pull the terminal plug from the front of the DCS240 so there is no chance of any power whatsoever getting to the track, right?
I have received from Arizona Rock and Mineral ballast that responded to a magnet. However, I have not had any problem with the layout in 3 years. I have infinite ohms when measured with my meter from one rail to another.
As a side note. Some weather chauks also can be picked up with a magnet. I have some colors of Pan Pastel that responed positively to a magnet. Did you weather your track with chaulk?
Drumguy So to get an accurate resistance reading, I should pull the terminal plug from the front of the DCS240 so there is no chance of any power whatsoever getting to the track, right?
Correct, pull the plug, remove all locomotives and lighted cars... That should do it.
I’ve disconnected every power source of from the rails .... booster terminal plug, PM42s, PSX-ARs, loconet, at this point there shouldn’t be anything with a capacitor connected to the rails. I get an initial reading of infinite on my meter, then it starts to jump around a bit. It does this on all 4 power districts.
So I killed the circuit breaker in the room just to double check. Same readings. If the layout was one district, I would assume this means there’s some sort of debris on the track—just enough to be weird but not trigger a short (I do the quarter test on all my track foot by foot, everything trips without error). But this happening on 4 districts seems to rule that out.
I will be doing some more digging tomorrow night, will keep you posted.
(BTW, rails are not yet weathered).
Drumguy, this is just cazy! I have been following your thread. How could this stuff even be sold as ballast!
Feeling your pain, man.
Mike.
My You Tube
I’m not sure how I got a bag of fully magnetized stuff as AZR&M has a good rep. Its almost like they sent it through a demagnetizer and I got the wrong bag. Their website has been down for almost a week so I can’t send a query. Honestly, if that’s what happened, I’m not POd—stuff happens. It’s just model trains, nobody dies. At this point its probable that it is not even causing the buzzing— or at least not the primary culprit.
Drummagnetizer.....
I was wondering about the meter readings you are getting on your DVM with everything disconnected and off the track. My DVM reads "OL" when its an open circuit. If you took a section of spare track and placed it on a non conductive surface and hooked up your meter it should have a constant reading of infinte ohms.
I was curious what would happen if you took some off that balast and started sprinking it on the piece of track. Does the meter display show infinte ohms?
Maybe the buzzing is from a distorted DCC signal/waveform??
DrumguyHonestly, if that’s what happened, I’m not POd—stuff happens. It’s just model trains, nobody dies.
Mike
Drumguy Their website has been down for almost a week so I can’t send a query. Honestly, if that’s what happened, I’m not POd—stuff happens. It’s just model trains, nobody dies. At this point its probable that it is not even causing the buzzing— or at least not the primary culprit.
Their website has been down for almost a week so I can’t send a query. Honestly, if that’s what happened, I’m not POd—stuff happens. It’s just model trains, nobody dies. At this point its probable that it is not even causing the buzzing— or at least not the primary culprit.
I found that I got much better results by calling, as opposed to a website visit. I recall him as being a very nice person, who perhaps is not "internet savvy".
And keep in mind that he might just have other things to do than to be near the phone all the time. I do suspect he doesn't carry a smartphone everywhere.
Water Level Route Drumguy Honestly, if that’s what happened, I’m not POd—stuff happens. It’s just model trains, nobody dies. What a refreshing attitude in this day and age! My hat's off to you!
Drumguy
What a refreshing attitude in this day and age! My hat's off to you!
I agree.
I'm almost completely DCC illiterate, but when the title of your thread first popped-up in the Forum directory, my first thought was that you probably had too many B-units. That pretty-much explains why I stayed with DC.
I do hope, though, that you can find a solution to this problem.
Wayne
Me four
Anger is time and energy that can be used to resolve the situation. I am following with interest.
Batman: that’s something my Dad taught me many years ago, and took me many more years to figure out. He always said “fix what you can fix, and once you’ve done everything you can, let (karma, fate, whatever deity you believe in) worry about the rest.” Dad was a man of incorruptible faith, but I don’t want to get this thread locked by using the G word. And he always taught us that getting angry or POd rarely ever gets anywhere—- it’s just a lot of wasted emotion/energy.
Meanwhile, I get the “Stupid is as stupid does” award fot the week. Possibly month or year. When I disconnected all my PM 42’s etc last night, I disconnected the INPUTS. Doh! Tonight I disconnected the outputs and now I get infinite reading on all 4 legs except my Lower Main Line. That’s still showing some weird readings— now maybe I’m getting somewhere. I’ll do some more digging this weekend.
Progress update:
I still had my AR1 connected to the lower main line district that was giving me weird readings. I disconnected it, now reads infinite ohms. Then I ran my magnet car around (slowly), it picked up a bit of debris but nothing alarming. On further inspection I found a small weight I had installed on the leading truck of my T1 4-4-4-4. Why do things always fall off in tunnels?
So on to loco cleaning: Athearn Genesis F7 a-b set (yellow boxes): this was one of the loudest. I picked this set up at a train show, no idea about its history. I took apart the trucks—found old grease, some hair and other scudge. So I thoughoughly cleaned them, then re-lubed and reassembled. No sign of the magnetic ballast anywhere in the loco. Runs much quieter now.
BLI NW2 switcher: this one was also very noisy. So I did the same full dissambly/cleaning of trucks, inspected the entire loco and found no sign of the magnetic particles. Reasembled, and it was as noisy as ever. So I took out the drive shafts to see of it was the motor or gears. Throttled up and it's just as noisy as ever with no gears moving--on this one, it's the motor.
Spent the afternoon just testing the rest of my diesels. Most of them are now fairly quiet up until about half throttle, when ramped up the motors are about as loud as a very, very good quality electric razor. I would call this acceptible, not sure if it's normal. Some caveats:
I might in fact have a perfect storm of coincidence on my hands: one loco's motor goes bad, another's gears finally get gunked up enough to notice, some dirty track/debris cause some weirdness, and the MTHs are just suddenly being MTHs. And maybe all this makes me hypersensitive to my other loco's sounds. Like when your furnace/HVAC system acts up. If its 50 degrees out, you wait it out a bit, and hope its just a fluke. If it's 30 below, you start to freak a bit.
All that being said, I now start to wonder if I really need to tear out the entire engine yard (I think I'd need to do that to get every last speck of magnetic stuff). I found one of BATMAN's Titanic-sucking magnets and ran it over the entire yard, picked up no more specks than the photo of Mel's magnet car (I glue my scenery down in two passes, sort of AR about it). Even thought the yard is covered in the stuff, theres no noticeable pull when placing magnets directly on the stuff and picking them up.
Engine yard isnt a perfect work of art, but I am happy with it. Still needs more detail work, but I'd hate to start over.
[url=https://flic.kr/p/23ACPTG]