LIONS like not electronic things on little pc boards. Him knows not what they do.
Him likes relays that snap with a click and him can see what they are doing.
Here is turnout control of LION and its associated relay room. Relays also manage block signals. (Home signals are of course operated directly by the levers.)
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
trainnut1250 rrinker You can get the complete setup, with the servo, already in a mount that installs like a Tortoise, with a switch for frog polarity, and the control circuit with both pushbuttons for local operation and a DCC decoder built in, for the cost of a bare Tortoise. --Randy Randy, Curious - Do you have a link? Guy
rrinker You can get the complete setup, with the servo, already in a mount that installs like a Tortoise, with a switch for frog polarity, and the control circuit with both pushbuttons for local operation and a DCC decoder built in, for the cost of a bare Tortoise. --Randy
You can get the complete setup, with the servo, already in a mount that installs like a Tortoise, with a switch for frog polarity, and the control circuit with both pushbuttons for local operation and a DCC decoder built in, for the cost of a bare Tortoise.
--Randy
Randy,
Curious - Do you have a link?
Guy
The stuff I used before all came from Tam Valley Depot
http://tamvalleydepot.com/home.html
There are others. I haven't looked recently but it appears some of the prices have gone up. But the Micro Singlet II in 6 unit quantities couple with less than $2 each servos in 6 unit quantits comes out to like $15. The 'kit' version saves more, but don;t be scared by 'kit' - you solder on 2 LEDs and 2 pushbuttons!
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
The caboose ground throws have a relatively new version that has a frog contacting system. You can always make a contact system for the frog too. Did you look at hump yard purveyance and thier armstrong levers using cables and links? Easy to add in a way to make a frog contact
Wolfie
A pessimist sees a dark tunnel
An optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel
A realist sees a frieght train
An engineer sees three idiots standing on the tracks stairing blankly in space
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
There are even commercial versions of that method now - that's really all the Bluepoint and the Bullfrog are, slide switches with one rod that comes back to the fascia for control and a piano wire that goes up to the throwbar of the turnout. Certainly effective, you have contacts for frog power or whatever, and it's cheap. Only real downside is in a crowded area you will have an awful lot of knobs and it could get confusing what knob controls what turnout, but out on the main it's very obvious. And with things that pull out, in the aisle - there's a compromise on aisle space, plus easy to bump one back in.
I've seen another that uses a regular household light switch - those are certainly cheap enough. But rather large. Even before the slide switch method, there were choke cable controls - no contacts with those, and then also just where do you get such obsolete items, as even most lawn mowers these days no longer have a throttle on the handle, let alone a manual choke that is remotely controlled.
hon30critterInteresting ground throw, but I don't see any auxilliary contacts. How do you control frog polarity, or do you not power your frogs?
The Bitter Creek throw has no provision built in for powering the frog or changing polarity. The only frogs I have powered currently belong to Atlas #8s. For those I use Tam Valley frog juicers.
Rob Spangler
Back in the days before all the electronics stuff from china, we used to use slide switches and piano wire to control turnouts, very cheap back then, even cheaper now. Bet some of you tecno guys could do a hybred with slide switches and cheap servos.
There's always Frog Juicers - but there go costs again.
Servos are SIGNIFICANTLY less expensive than Tortoises, even if you go commercial (so no building circuits or writing code). You cna get the complete setup, with the servo, already in a mount that installs like a Tortoise, with a switch for frog polarity, and the control circuit with both pushbuttons for local operation and a DCC decoder built in, for the cost of a bare Tortoise. There's no soldering. For the Tortoise you then need to add the cost of the connector so you don't have to solder, the switches, and any fascia indicators. And you still wouldn;t have DCC control. Not that I am an advocate of direct DCC control - I find it awkward no matter WHAT brand of DCC system you use, to swap between train control and turnout control. I use the DCC control for dispatcher control, not throwing turnouts from the throttle. Use it or not, it's there and ready in the servo option.
Dave, short on time now, later I will post more details on my use of a sub minature slide switch asa ground throw.
Obviously it provides contacts for the frog polarity.
Sheldon
Rob:
Interesting ground throw, but I don't see any auxilliary contacts. How do you control frog polarity, or do you not power your frogs?
Dave:
Same question. What does the club do to control frog polarity?
davidmurrayany visitor can tell what manual throw turns which turnout,
Good point!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
The Pine Ridge club in Oshawa uses manual peco turnouts as they came from the box. About a foot of track past the end of the turnout is powered from the toe of the turnout, trying to cut down on the number of turnouts entered with the points set wrong.
As a clever young fellow pointed out to me several years ago any visitor can tell what manual throw turns which turnout, looking a large/complicated/poorly done/whatever control panels can be more difficult.
For manual control, I like the Bitter Creek Models metal throws. http://bittercreekmodels.com/page11.html
Here's one in service on my layout. https://www.flickr.com/photos/wp8thsub/12669807894/sizes/c/
Dave,
It seems that your group has a couple of objectives: One is that they want things to be simple, the other is they need the turnout controls to be inexpensive.
My suggestion would be to try to finesse the second part of the equation and focus on the simple. Keep in mind that any electric option is going to require a certain amount of complexity. There will have to be a power buss for the machines and the panels and frogs will have to be wired up. Any kind of through routing diode matrix or other logic circuitry to operate groups of turnouts will also add another layer of more complicated wiring.
As for cost, turnout control has never been especially inexpensive when you go to motors or other automatic options. I managed the cost on my layout by buying motors on the cheap when I found deals on them. It took me years to get them all installed and I was able to spread out the cost over time.
I would go with tortoises and have a couple of bake sales to raise the cash for them. They are straight forward and pretty simple to operate and install. You won’t get all 75 turnouts installed at once so there will be time to spread out the financial burden. If you need to get the turnouts up and running before you can afford the motors, obtain some old ground throws and install them temporarily until they can be replaced with the tortoises.
I wouldn’t use caboose type ground throws as a permanent solution in a club environment - they won’t give you the needed contacts (easily) for the frogs and they encourage operators to reach into the scene where a stray sleeve or hand can cause damage. Of course there are workarounds – the throws can be mounted at the edge of the scene on the fascia, there are throws with contacts and there are the slide switch throws, but the complexity goes up with these options.
As for the servos, they are clearly a viable option but they may be a bit more complicated install and set-up than your group wants to undertake at this time.
Hang in there,
Ignore my circuit and the last few posts with Sheldon, as what I am doing is far from what you are dooing at the club. You need to look at Geoff Bunza's articles to see the simple press this button to line the switch option. Or commercial versions like what Tam Valley has, no coding, no circuit building, it all just plugs in, no soldering, but it does cost signifanctly more than DIY.
Actually, in relation to the conversation with Sheldon - I'm doing all this DIY stuff because I enjoy it - I'm not even using off the shelf CMRI components for the control system, I'm designing and building my own, loosely based on Seth Neumann's Arduino node. But, for the "not a lot of wires" solutiooon, there are the commercial products like the Tam Valley Singlets I used on my previous layout. There's one small board, about an inch andf a half square, that contains the pushbuttons and indicator LEDs. 2 screw terminals provide power - either fixed voltage for local control only, or DCC to add the option of DCC control, and there is a 3 pin connection for the servo to plug in to. Couldn't be simpler. And the servo works like an LED - plug it in backwards, and it just doesn't work, it doesn't fry itself or the controller. Just flip the plug if it doesn't move.
rrinkerDave, if "most" of the club would glaze over at the word "arduino", that tells me there are some who DO understand them.
Uh, I think I was trying to be polite when I said "most". I will ask if any members have Arduino knowledge at the meeting on Tuesday night, but I won't be suprised if I don't get any responses.
The real bottom line for this club is that most of the members seem to just want to watch their trains go round and round. We discussed dispatcher control on Monday night and we came to the conclusion that we are not going to put in a central control panel. Our first goal once the layout is up and running will be to have someone controlling train movement by verbal command. We will also likely institute a card program to make things more interesting. That will be a big leap from where the club is now. One leap at a time.
Having said that, we still need to decide on how we will control things like the yard ladders. That brings us all the way back to the discussion of diode matrices and rotary switches etc. We want to make the system as simple as possible.
I have to make a confession. After all the discussion of Arduinos and rotary switches etc., and the various wiring diagrams, I am overwhelmed. I'm going to have to sit back and study your suggestions for a while to see if I can better understand what you have been telling me. Right now my brain is totally muddled.
rrinker Keep in mind that is an electronic schematic and most of the lines seen on that drawing will be PC board traces, not wires. Wires for this part of the system will consist of an RJ45 cable from the control panel to the board for each turnout handling the pushbuttons adn the indicator lights for each turnout. No, that does not need 8 wires, but by using a twisted pair for each signal it aids in noise immunity, and RJ45 cables are common off the shelf items. The board will have screw terminals for the frog power. The servos plug in via their 3 pin plugs. Power to run the whole thing comes in with a pair of screw terminals. ANd one other RJ45 cable connects this board to the main controller. Also - this device is for mainline turnouts in a given control point. Other places that will never need dispatcher control, like my yard, will have a much simplified circuit (read that as, higher density). Since the logic for the master control are not needed, I can control more servos with the same chip. I MIGHT also go with the method of attaching a microswitch to the servo for frog power, rather than the relay. In its simplest form, as seen in Geoff Bunza's designs, it is possible to get one Arduino (the chip in my circuit is the Atmel ATMega328, same as used in the Arduino Uno, Nano, and Micro) to drive at least 9 servos with buttons, sacrificing indicator LEDs, although it's easy and cheap enough to glue 2 microswitches to each servo, which effectively makes it a Tortoise with 2 sets of SPDT contacts. Since a prebuilt Arduino Nano is about $3, and the servos are about $2 each, you can see the per turnout cost is greatley reduced with servos. Also note that since there are no relays in my track drive, being DCC, there are none I can just piggyback off of for the turnouts or frog power. The simplified "just moves the servos" circuit could be substituted for the Tortoise in your system. --Randy
Keep in mind that is an electronic schematic and most of the lines seen on that drawing will be PC board traces, not wires. Wires for this part of the system will consist of an RJ45 cable from the control panel to the board for each turnout handling the pushbuttons adn the indicator lights for each turnout. No, that does not need 8 wires, but by using a twisted pair for each signal it aids in noise immunity, and RJ45 cables are common off the shelf items. The board will have screw terminals for the frog power. The servos plug in via their 3 pin plugs. Power to run the whole thing comes in with a pair of screw terminals. ANd one other RJ45 cable connects this board to the main controller.
Also - this device is for mainline turnouts in a given control point. Other places that will never need dispatcher control, like my yard, will have a much simplified circuit (read that as, higher density). Since the logic for the master control are not needed, I can control more servos with the same chip. I MIGHT also go with the method of attaching a microswitch to the servo for frog power, rather than the relay. In its simplest form, as seen in Geoff Bunza's designs, it is possible to get one Arduino (the chip in my circuit is the Atmel ATMega328, same as used in the Arduino Uno, Nano, and Micro) to drive at least 9 servos with buttons, sacrificing indicator LEDs, although it's easy and cheap enough to glue 2 microswitches to each servo, which effectively makes it a Tortoise with 2 sets of SPDT contacts. Since a prebuilt Arduino Nano is about $3, and the servos are about $2 each, you can see the per turnout cost is greatley reduced with servos.
Also note that since there are no relays in my track drive, being DCC, there are none I can just piggyback off of for the turnouts or frog power. The simplified "just moves the servos" circuit could be substituted for the Tortoise in your system.
Randy, I understand.
Most of my wiring is "on the relay boards" which are decentralized and grouped by tower/interlocking.
CAT5 cable handles pushbutton locations and other control interfaces.
And yes I take advantage of the contacts on the switch machine.
My non CTC turnouts are manual, but my yard does have a complex power routing scheme that allows two locos to work the yard, one from each end, with out any block controls.....
On my home layout, I tried a number of different techniques. For twin-coils, I used simple SPDT toggles on a control panel. I built a number of separate panels around the benchwork to be close enough to the turnouts to see them, since my SPDT toggles were left in the center position and did not indicate turnout position. For my subways where the turnouts were not visible, I used latching relays and LEDs.
Later, I switched to Tortoise machines, and controlled them with DPDT toggles which did give me position indication at the panel. That's a big advantage.
The last phase of my layout was a separate physical bench, connected only by a liftoff section. Since I no longer had a turnout power bus there, I decided to go with DCC control. I put LEDs in to a control panel so I could see how the turnouts were set. My mistake, though, was using one of the simpler, cheaper DCC turnout decoders that did not allow for both throttle and panel control. After running this scheme for a while, I realized that I don't personally like using DCC for my turnouts and really would prefer a panel.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
And that is what it comes down to, hardware vs software.
Because I use hardwire logic, I don't need the redudant relays for the frog, I have spare 5A contacts.
I don't need the information buss.
I build the relay panels on the bench, just like you write code at a desk, but again, looking at your diagram, you have just as much wire as me.
I don't need a "pin" for each addtional pushbutton station, they just daisy chain in parallel.
I have wired and programed PLC's, going all the way back to their inception in the early 80's. Ardunio is just the latest generation PLC, yes finally very afordable.
Yes, some of my turnout relays also direct track power, and they power the frogs. So regarding powered frogs, I do with three wires what take you a whole sub system and addtional board.
My CTC, detection and signaling is exactly like Chubb or Ravenscroft, series logic from the detector, thru the turnout and dispatcher choices, to the signals. Simple versions of the same circuits used by the prototype for 90 years....
Yes, to change things I have to rewire....I'm a good planner, I don't make many changes.....
I have written code, I would rather not. I have built relay panels since age 20, I don't mind it one bit.
My costs are similar per turnout, $2 for the average relay I use, you still need the same buttons, LED's, wire, etc. I need less resistors, caps, etc. My power supplies are simpler, two 12V transformers and a couple rectifiers create my split 24V/12V power for control circuits, switch motor power, and signal power.
For your purposes, yoour system may be better than servos - but mainly because route selection is part of your MZL control system. When turnout control is completely isolated from any power control, it becomes a different story.
The servo drivers can and should be considered a black box. In that case, the wiring couldn't be simpler. Two wires in for power, and the servos all connect with a 3 pin plug and header.
Dave, if "most" of the club would glaze over at the word "arduino", that tells me there are some who DO understand them. The key to longevity is documentation - as time goes on, the number of people who understand the device will only go up, but without documentation, if those who created the configuration are no longer there, it will be tough to figure out. At the same time, I see no need to tell members at large the details of what's under the layout - what they need to know is that if they want to go on a certain track, they push the button for that track. When the light turns green, that means they can go. What happens behind the scenes to make that happen - the wiring and technical committees should know. We have the same thing going on with various RR-CirKits block detectors and signal drivers. We have some members that after nearly 10 years of the layout being DCC still can;t figure out how to punch in the number on the side of their loco, but the majority have no problems running trains and following signals, despite not having the slightest clue about how DCC works, or how the signals get changed. They just follow the lights. I should probbaly get more involved, the original DCC guy recently passed away unexpectedly - no, it wasn't me because I didn't have the time to put in to make every meeting and every work session, let alone every exhibition. The previous chairman has also stepped down and he was the one who made the entire JMRI PanelPro setup for the dispatcher, so I'm not sure who's handling things lately. The two who are no longer there weren't the only ones trained to hold the dispatcher job, so there are others who know how to RUN the panel, but I doubt there is anyone who knows how to fix anything. Putting the layout together is easy, everything is color-coded Power Pole connectors. And it's all documented - that is the real key. Two of the initial creators are no longer with the group yet the shows do go on because enough knowledge was passed along to make it all work.
So I wouldn't be scared of stepping outside the box a little here. The whole point of Dr. Bunza's articles is to somewhat do what Dr. Chubb did for the signal and detection realm - show that you DON'T have to be an electronic genius to make use of this stuff. Maybe you need some experience to initially create it - both are electrical engineers and at least in Bruce Chubb's case, have been heavily involved in industrial control systems. But the end users of these products are not all skilled engineers or programmers. I won't deny, it helps to have an understanding of these things, but to use already developed hardware and software, I don't think that's so. Check the CMRI group on Yahoo - there are people there that clearly have no clue how to program, yet following Bruce's examples, and maybe with a little help from a friend, they have their layouts operating with CTC consoles and full signalling. Check out Geoff Bunza's articles and blog. I'm a hardware guy, an EE and not a CE or CompSci, but I've always felt that software is a whole lot more flexible than hardware. That's the approach with microcontrollers, or even the mostly 'dumb' signal board with JMRI controlling them. Rather than design logic using various logic gate circuits, the logic is in the form of program statements, which is most any high level language are close to plain English, and keeping the hardware very generic. This too is true of the CMRI system, the boards themselves are simply inputs and outputs. They do no calculations on their own. Someone pushes a button connected to input #5, unless the computer program is looking to see if input #5 goes active, nothing will happen. The signal LED connected to output #11 will not change. When the program tells the board to turn output #11 on, then the LED will light up. The board is simple and generic, there is no need to even break out a soldering iron to install it and connect it to the signals and turnouts. Each board is exactly like any other. The code is what makes things happen. Like DCC decoders - outside of form factor, most decoders are just like any other decoder. If you want the purple wire to turn on when the loco is going forward and you press the F3 button, you have to tell the decoder to do this, but what decoder it is really doesn't matter, as long as it does have a purple wire.
hon30critter Robert, Randy, Mel and Sheldon: Thanks for the suggestions, and the interesting discussion back and forth. One thing that I should have mentioned in the first post is that whatever system we use has to be understandable for current and future members of the club. I love the Arduino concept but if I were to say the word "Arduino" to the club members most of them would respond with a blank stare. Sheldon, your wiring system does sound like something we should consider. However, I don't understand some of the components/symbols on your schematics. For example, you have a component labelled 'R1' and then you have a component labelled 'R1' with a circle around it. There are also several symbols with two vertical lines with an angled line across them. On some of these symbols the angled line is from upper left to lower right but on others it is from upper right to lower left. I don't recognize the symbol at all, but then again, I'm no electrical wizard. Could you post a key explaining what each of the symbols mean? Thanks, Dave
Robert, Randy, Mel and Sheldon:
Thanks for the suggestions, and the interesting discussion back and forth.
One thing that I should have mentioned in the first post is that whatever system we use has to be understandable for current and future members of the club. I love the Arduino concept but if I were to say the word "Arduino" to the club members most of them would respond with a blank stare.
Sheldon, your wiring system does sound like something we should consider. However, I don't understand some of the components/symbols on your schematics. For example, you have a component labelled 'R1' and then you have a component labelled 'R1' with a circle around it. There are also several symbols with two vertical lines with an angled line across them. On some of these symbols the angled line is from upper left to lower right but on others it is from upper right to lower left. I don't recognize the symbol at all, but then again, I'm no electrical wizard. Could you post a key explaining what each of the symbols mean?
Thanks,
Dave, these are all standard symbols for electrical controls, going back to the 1920's or before.
The circles with letter or number inside are the relay coil.
The parallel lines are the relay contacts, if it has a diagonal across it, it is a normally closed contact. So a contact labled "R1" is controlled by relay coil "R1", etc.
When you see a normally open contact, and a normally closed contact labled the same with a common connection between them, that is/can be a "form C" contact, common on relays, like a single pole, double throw switch.
This is "old tech" if you have anyone in your group with industrial motor control experiance they will understand the drawing.
And I can send more info, that was just what I had scanned and handy as an example.
Also I should note the the drawing labled for a single turnout also works for a crossover with a few additional connections for a second switch motor and possibly extra push buttons.
This system is very versital and can be tailored to any track arrangement just like any solid state system. It can do yard ladders and complex interlockings with one button selections in nearly any case.
Once there are two or more turnouts, you only need one relay per turnout.
Randy, I like the idea of the small size of the servos, but that seems like just as much wiring for two turnouts as I do using simple relay logic?
I can have unlimited control stations
I can have a master location lock out other control stations
My lighted pushbuttons show the route
The relays provide the signal logic and frog power directly with extra contacts
Here are a few examples:
The diagram with the wye shows how three relays provide all the logic needed with contacts left over for other stuff.
I use the little 9G servos as well, plenty of power to move even a Peco with the spring still in it, or a Fast Tracks style all-rail turnout (no hinge). They are all over the place on ebay from any number of Chinese sources, usually in packs of 6 for about $10 shipped. I have yet to have one go bad, and yet to have one DOA.
I like to mount thm so they have an over-center action like a Tortoise - so when fully in position it's really the springiness of the music wire holding the points closed, since servos that can;t reach the commanded travel point will buzz and overheat. The latest one I am trying doesn't even need the travel range to be set, you just run the servo from minimum to maximum. As such, I wasn;t including any settings for this in my controller, outside of actually editing the program. I do have a pair of jumpers to set the srvo to the center position to make it easier to physically attach the servo and mount under the table and line it up with the throwbar hole.
I did once try a smaller one, they're either 4.5G or 4G. The idea was to mount it directly under the turnout like a Peco motor - it works very well, but the downside is having to carve out the space before laying the turnout. The advantage is the distance is so short you cna use rather fine wire and still impart enouhg force to securely hold the points. Plus they won't stick down below even 1/2" plywood let alone plywood with some other roadbed like cork or homasote. In the end I just stuck with the 9G type and mounted them Tortoise style under the layout - they are however a fraction of the size of a Tortoise.
Question for Randy, what kind of servos and where are you getting them?
For me, I designed my layout so that turnouts that would be maunal on the prototype would be close enough to the layout edge for ground throw operation, but I still need electrical switching for my wiring scheme, signals and powered frogs.
So I use sub minature slide switches, set right in the roadbed at the throw bar, with little wire springs I make connecting the handle to the throwbar. The small screwdrivers I use for uncoupling also operate the manual turnouts.
So yards, industries, etc, are all ground throws, I don't worry about the appearance, it is just a very small little "blob" where the switch stand would be.
If it is a yard that needs dwarf signals, the switches provide the info to light them.
The mainline turnouts are CTC controlled and powered with Tortoise machines. Those machines are controlled by relays so that I have lots of contacts for signal logic. The relays also allow for easy matrix setups for one button route control.
The tower control panels have lighted pushbuttons that show the route selected. Push one button and all the necessary turnouts move to the correct route.
Because of the typical motor control push button station wiring I use, any given route or turnout can be controlled on as many different control panels as you want. In my case a local panel and the CTC panel. Both panels show the route selected and the CTC dispatcher can disable the local panel controls which will still illuminate to show the current route.
The ice cube relays I use only cost me a few dollars each, and can still be had surplus or new for $5 or less. A complex interlocking will require about one relay per turnout.
The pushbuttons I use have built in LED lights.
Google Geoff Bunza, there are links to almost all of his projects. They link to the web site of an MR competitor so I won't post the direct links here.
The circuits are pretty much all the same, a servo has 3 pins, power, ground, and signal. Power and ground go to, well poower and ground, and the signal goes to the Arduino. Most of the 14 digital pins are fair game, in the software you define which servo is which pin, so that when the program says to move servo2, it know that means the one on pin 4.
Geoff's examples include the schematics and the software. Some of it is free downloads that you must be a subscriber to download, but it's free.
My design I will be sharing the hardware and code for anyone that wants to duplicate it. I will NOT be making or selling anything, but if someone wants to duplicate what I've done, go for it. My devices are not so high density (though I may make something different for my yard), each board will control just 2 turnouts, but that includes 2 buttons for each one, plus 2 indicator LEDs foor each one, and a relay for frog power on each. The other pins are for connection to a CMRI based controller board for remote control and remote lockout (so the buttons don't work unless the dispatcher enables them). Preliminary schematic here:
http://www.readingeastpenn.com/images/TurnoutController2.pdf