I'm just programming a P2K GP9. It's got a Loksound decoder. I'm using the speed tables. There's 28 entries to be used. I've got speed step one programmed to 1. My irritation is that the loco jumps up from zero to a certain speed. And my further irritation is that I don't see how I can get the starting speed step below 1.
Am I missing something here????
Ed
Ed,
Do you really want to mess with speed tables? You might try setting CVs 2, 5, and 6 first to see if you can achieve what you want. It's actually quicker than speed tables and I've gotten very good results.
You might also try running the "automatic motor turning feature" after setting your speed CVs:
The locomotive will start out at full throttle but will quickly come to a stop. I did this for a Loksound Select decoder in a brass H20-44 and was getting well under 1sMPH at speed step 001.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Tom,
I've done the speed tables a couple of times so far. Yeah, it takes a few minutes; but I kinda like it.
Thanks for the info/suggestion. I'll be thinkin' on that.
Meanwhile, as an experiment, I changed the CV in speed step 1 from 1 to 0. I'd been told that couldn't work, but it does seem to have improved it. Not to perfection, though.
I do hafta say that the loco is going pretty slow, though. But what bugs me is that it still sorta just STARTS. Irritating.
Thanks again for the suggestion. It's gettin' late, but I'll try it tomorrow (-ish).
Let me know how it goes for you, Ed.
BTW, the value I originally posted above for CV54 for the automatic motor turning feature should actually be "0" rather than "3". I made the correction in my original post.
tstageDo you really want to mess with speed tables? You might try setting CVs 2, 5, and 6 first to see if you can achieve what you want. It's actually quicker than speed tables and I've gotten very good results.
I totally agree, I have never needed to use the umpteen settings speed table approach. Setting CV2 (slow) at speed step 1, CV5 (max) at speed step 126 first is easy to set the range. Then, at speed step 63, I set CV6 (mid) to get the slower speeds slope and the faster speeds slope. That works great for speed matching locos.
tstageYou might also try running the "automatic motor turning feature" after setting your speed CVs: Place locomotive on minimum 3' piece of track Change CV54 to a value of "3" Press F1 The locomotive will start out at full throttle but will quickly come to a stop.
Yes to this also, which fine tunes BEMF variables, except (per the Select manual, pg. 23) set CV54 to zero (not 3) before hitting F1. That will make the loco self-adjust CVs 52-55. Best to do this first (on a warmed up, broken in loco) and then set CV2 for smooth movement at speed step 1. Then set CV5, then CV6, per above.
Loksounds usually run nicely, including at slow speed, out of the box before doing the CV54 trick. I have converted a number of P2K with Selects and usually do not even bother with the CV54 trick. On a Doodlebug with a Stanton drive mod it was very necessary as the drive lurched significantly. If the CV54 process does not give decent speed step 1 operation via CV2 adjustment, maybe there's a drive issue. Note that CV2 is not necessarily set to 1 for smooth operation at speed step 1; default is typically 3, but see what gives smoothest low speed operation. It depends on the loco.
If speed matching two locos, one likely will run smoothly a bit slower than its mate when both are adjusted at speed step 1 with CV2. In that case, the slower one's CV2 can optimally be increased slightly to run at the faster speed of its mate. That's a fine point, it might not be necessary, but that's what I do.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
How are you actually controlling it, with 28 steps or 128? Try 128, much finer control.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
First of all, one can enter a value of 0 into speed step 1 (of 28). But the program changes it to 1. So, my change of speed step 1 from value 1 to value 0 never really happened.
I just timed the loco. With speed step 1 (of 28) set at zero, it travels at 1.3 mph at speed step 1 (of 128).
The first several speed step values were 1, 5, 8, 11.
Then I wondered what would happen if I changed those values to 1, 2, 3, 4. I thought maybe with a shallower curve slope, it would lessen the absolute beginning speed. I notice no change: 1.3 mph.
So, I'll change the 1, 2, 3, 4 values back to the previous values.
It seems clear the motor is willing to spin slower, because it is REAL happy just ticking over right now. At 1.3 MPH.
Thanks guys,
I'll pursue this later.
rrinker How are you actually controlling it, with 28 steps or 128? Try 128, much finer control. --Randy
128.
ESU (Loksound) handles speed curves differently than all other manufacturers. With all other manufacturer's speed table, you have 28 points of reference you can set. With ESU you only have 26 that are settable in the speed table itself. You don't set point 1 or point 28 in the speed table - you set those using CV2 and CV5.
Why ? .... well, it's rather eloquent when you think about it ....
You spend a good deal of time creating the perfect speed curve. Now you want to lower the top speed. Normally, you would have to re-set every point on the speed curve to match new lower value on step 28. With ESU, you just lower the top speed using CV5. The internal logic automatically adjusts all the other steps to retain your original curve, just a bit shallower to match the new lower setting of the top speed set using CV5.
Same goes for your start speed. You don't set step 1 in the speed curve, you set it with CV2. If you are still getting a jump start, add some momentum in addition to the BEMF.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
Mark,
You say the ESU only allows 26 entries in the speed table, as opposed to everyone else's 28. And yet, for my ESU decoder, I was able to change the first speed step (CV 67) from the delivered value of 5 (apparently a special case--see below) down to 1.
You appear to be saying I can't do that, but must use CV2. And yet my CV readout says it happened.
So I admit I am not following you.
There is currently momentum in the throttle right now. And it feels to me to be about the right amount. In particular, I don't want to increase it.
It appears that the seller programmed this decoder themselves. Which gives me some interesting variables to deal with. So far, nothing really irritating, though. But that might explain why CV 67 was delivered at 5 instead of the linear value of 9.
Ed (an admitted beginner)
It takes the CVs, they just don't work exactly the same as other decoders. Check CV2 and see what your real starting speed is set to.
I've never messed around with speed tables, never felt the need - but then I only use decoders that support CV2, 5, and 5 for simple 3 step tables, which gets me the starting speed I want, the top speed limit I want, and the throttle response I want based on CV6. 1.3 SMPH starting speed is pretty decent. Also set some starting momentum in CV3.
tstage Ed, Do you really want to mess with speed tables? You might try setting CVs 2, 5, and 6 first to see if you can achieve what you want. It's actually quicker than speed tables and I've gotten very good results. You might also try running the "automatic motor turning feature" after setting your speed CVs: Place locomotive on minimum 3' piece of track Change CV54 to a value of "3" "0" Press F1 The locomotive will start out at full throttle but will quickly come to a stop. I did this for a Loksound Select decoder in a brass H20-44 and was getting well under 1sMPH at speed step 001. Tom
This CV 54 thing is very interesting. where can i find out more about it?
Do you do this with all your locomotives?
Gary
gdelmoro tstage Ed, Do you really want to mess with speed tables? You might try setting CVs 2, 5, and 6 first to see if you can achieve what you want. It's actually quicker than speed tables and I've gotten very good results. You might also try running the "automatic motor turning feature" after setting your speed CVs: Place locomotive on minimum 3' piece of track Change CV54 to a value of "3" "0" Press F1 The locomotive will start out at full throttle but will quickly come to a stop. I did this for a Loksound Select decoder in a brass H20-44 and was getting well under 1sMPH at speed step 001. Tom This CV 54 thing is very interesting. where can i find out more about it? Do you do this with all your locomotives?
See the Select (Direct, 6Aux and Micro) manual pg. 22-23. Download it below. Or the V4.0 manual if that's what you have. The info is similar. It explains how non-typical motors might want to try different (than default) settings for BEMF CVs 52-55 for can motor w/o flywheel or coreless motor, as well as the CV54 procedure for auto-tuning, as well as individual CV tweaking.
http://www.esu.eu/en/downloads/instruction-manuals/digital-decoders/
I have only done the CV54 procedure for a few locos, but I will get around to doing it on each eventually (perhaps). I did find the unique NWSL Stanton drive needed help. When speed was dialed down, it lurched to a multi-point stop, totally unsatisfactory. The CV54 procedure helped it immensely, though still not perfect perhaps. The individual CV tweaking (trial and error) I don't recall helping much additionally. Again, most locos run at slow speeds just fine out of the box. I only had to implement the CV54 procedure about 5% of the time.
The CV54 Auto Tune sets the four different BEMF settings automatically based on feedback from the motor itself. Unless you REALLY understand how the BEMF variables are calculated, it can be a real crap-shoot to try and set them perfectly manually.
Gary,
No, I only performed the test on the H20-44 switcher because I was getting a jerky response after installing the Select decoder. (I had previoius installed and tested a TCS motor-only decoder in it and it ran as smooth as glass.) The majority of the time the Loksound decoders are just great right out of the box - i.e. <1sMPH on speed step 001. Other than setting the address, turning off dual-mode, and apply Rule 17 lighting, I hardly ever have to tweak any other CVs.
rrinker It takes the CVs, they just don't work exactly the same as other decoders. Check CV2 and see what your real starting speed is set to. I've never messed around with speed tables, never felt the need - but then I only use decoders that support CV2, 5, and 5 for simple 3 step tables, which gets me the starting speed I want, the top speed limit I want, and the throttle response I want based on CV6. 1.3 SMPH starting speed is pretty decent. Also set some starting momentum in CV3. --Randy
Randy (and Mark),
Doing a bit of studying, I find there's a "bit 4" option that is entered when setting CV29. If "bit 4" is set to "off", one can use CV2, CV6, and CV5. If "bit 4" is set to "on", CV67-CV94 (speed table) is enabled. I believe, in the latter case, you also have to activate the speed table using CV25. I read that it should be set a a value of 16 for this. I do wonder where that number came from. If CV25 were only off-or-on, it would seem the CV25 options should be 0 or 1.
But. It appears you can only do one or the other. If you are using CV2, for example, you cannot be using the speed tables. And if you are using the speed tables, you cannot be using CV2.
So it appears to me.
Paul and Gary,
Yup, the "automatic tuneup" sounds interesting.
Two questions do come up:
If I'm not happy with whatever the "thing" does, how do I undo it?
They say be sure to have plenty of track available for the auto-tune. Since I don't have a full loop available, just how much track are we talking about? My available trackage has a finite length.
See the full speed curve section here (1/3 down) ....
http://www.intermountain-railway.com/customerservice/dccwebpage/ESU-FAQ-Page.html
Bit 4 is the value 16 you see mentioned.
Regarding the Auto Tune - If you are not happy with the results, just do a factory reset (CV8 = 8 > power cycle). If you don't want to do a full reset, note the values in CVs 52, 53, 54 and 55 before you try it. These are the four values affected during the Auto Tune.
7j43kBut. It appears you can only do one or the other. If you are using CV2, for example, you cannot be using the speed tables. And if you are using the speed tables, you cannot be using CV2.
No, that is not what they are saying. What they are saying is that if you set CV2 (min) and CV5 (max), the values you end up with there are carried over to the speed tables for speed step 1 and speed step 28. So you can set steps 2 through 27 but you can't set, by using the tables steps 1 and 28.
I haven't actually looked recently, but from other forums I think you will find that steps 1 and 28 are greyed out if you are looking at the tables in JMRI. And if you are not using JMRI to adjust the speed table values, you are going way out of your way to get the job done.
7j43kThey say be sure to have plenty of track available for the auto-tune. Since I don't have a full loop available, just how much track are we talking about?
I'd say 3-5 ft.
I thought I'd try a test:
(remember, this is a Loksound decoder)
CV 67 was set at 1, CV 68 at 5. I changed both of them to 40, to see if there's be a sudden bout of quickness on start. No noticeable change.
I DID see that CV67 did not accept the new value--it stayed at 1.
That would appear to endorse what Mark has said.
Well, there you are. Or, more correctly, here I am. I guess.
I do kinda get the point. Sorta. In particular, at least for Loksound, there isn't straightforward choice between simple and complex speed curves. As Mark says, some of the data from the simple speed curve is incorporated into the output of the complex speed curve.
Thanks, Mark. I'll have to think on this some more.
peahrens I'd say 3-5 ft.
Thanks Paul.
I've got much more than that.
I mentioned 3' in my previous post. However, when I actually ran the automatic motor tuning feature with my H20-44 it didn't even travel 12" before it came to an abrupt stop. I think 3' should be plenty...unless you plan to run the feature using a 4-8-8-4 Big Boy.
To answer your other question: I think a decoder reset is what you'd need to perform an "undo" of the motor tuning feature.
More big fun (and confusion):
From page 21 of Loksound Users Manual:
"5.2.2.3. Speed curve
You may also define your own speed curve: simply enter the desired values in CV's 67 to 94. The decoder will superimpose these 28 values onto the real speed steps."
To me, that sounds like what I'm hearing, here. The "real speed steps" would seem to be CV 2, 5, and 6.
But:
"When this mode is active, the settings in CV 2, CV 5, and CV 6 have no influence."
THAT seems to be saying what I thought in the beginning: Simple and complex speed curve settings are unrelated.
The Loksound Manual is surely being unhelpful. As, indeed, many manuals are.
The "real speed steps" are the actual steps issued by the command station, not the steps from CV 2, 6, and 5.
More experiment:
I checked some more CV's (keep in mind that this decoder was reprogrammed by Litchfield Station from a 73800 to a 73836):
CV2 was 3, I changed it to 1
CV5 was 255, I changed it to 130
CV6 was 88, I changed it to 50
Keep in mind that I've (supposedly) got CV29 set for the complex speed curve.
Results: Speed step 1 went from 1.3 mph down to .2 mph. Uh, WOW!
I'll note that you can see a bit of jerkiness from the motor cogging. And I suspect that's fixable a bit, too. Not for me now, but I got a feelin'........
I also noted that, when I tried changing CV 25 from 0 to 16 (which I heard somewhere I should do), the decoder wouldn't accept it, and stayed at zero.
But, I'll tell ya, I am indeed happy at the improvement.
Thanks, all for helping out. And a couple of extra thanks for Mark.
PS: This little loco is a zebra stripe Santa Fe GP9 (P2K), destined for road switcher service. So she'll run solo, mostly. Besides the decoder, there's a speaker and "keep-alive", all by Loksound. And as much lead as I could conveniently fit. A real sweety. And I ain't even a Santa Fe guy. Well, a little, I guess.
I would try the CV54 procedure again. See where it runs slow better (not necessarily slowest), at CV2 set at 1 vs 2, with the Cv54 procedure done for each. You might have a choice to make; i.e., slower at CV2 equals 1 vs. smoother at CV2 = 2. Of course if it runs equally smooth at 1 or 2 value the choice is easy.
Would enjoy the answer if you don't mind experimenting more. All this is informative as there's a learning curve.
BTW, if you have not tried the Loksound Yahoo User Group it is worthwhile monitoring.
Paul,
I hadn't tried the CV54 thing yet. So I did. After first recording the original number. Minimum speed dropped to .1MPH. And it was pretty smooth. Bad news was that the fella goes REAL SLOW now, at least according to the sound.
When I first put the loco on the track a couple of days ago, with sound, it felt like the loco was going way faster than the engine sound. Then when I changed the low number CV's an hour ago or so, it felt like the engine sound matched pretty nicely the loco speed. Now it sounds like the sound is way up there, compared with the speed.
So the CV54 adjust was, all in all, anti-rewarding.
So it still needs work. I do wonder what would happen if I restored the low number CV's and then did a CV54.
OK, I did restore the low number CV's to "as delivered". It's "less negative". Meaning it still seems like the loco is working way too hard (soundwise). But less than just awhile ago.
So, I'm pretty happy with things. Certainly enough to leave it for now.
DCC is SO neat. And SO much better than the olden days. Though a little intimidating.
7j43kYou may also define your own speed curve: simply enter the desired values in CV's 67 to 94. The decoder will superimpose these 28 values onto the real speed steps." To me, that sounds like what I'm hearing, here. The "real speed steps" would seem to be CV 2, 5, and 6.
You still didn't answer whether or not you are using JMRI to do the speed step CV changes. Again, I think that the only two speed step settings that carry over are CV2 and CV5. I've not heard/read anyplace the the mid-speed CV (6?) carrys over. You said you are using the complex speed curve, but exactly what other CVs are you changing? Are you just picking the other speed curve values at random?
maxman 7j43k You may also define your own speed curve: simply enter the desired values in CV's 67 to 94. The decoder will superimpose these 28 values onto the real speed steps." To me, that sounds like what I'm hearing, here. The "real speed steps" would seem to be CV 2, 5, and 6. You still didn't answer whether or not you are using JMRI to do the speed step CV changes. Again, I think that the only two speed step settings that carry over are CV2 and CV5. I've not heard/read anyplace the the mid-speed CV (6?) carrys over. You said you are using the complex speed curve, but exactly what other CVs are you changing? Are you just picking the other speed curve values at random?
7j43k You may also define your own speed curve: simply enter the desired values in CV's 67 to 94. The decoder will superimpose these 28 values onto the real speed steps." To me, that sounds like what I'm hearing, here. The "real speed steps" would seem to be CV 2, 5, and 6.
No, I'm not using JMRI to do the speed step CV changes. The CV's 67 to 94 are whatever Litchfield Station installed. I haven't changed them. I DID change CV2, 5, 6. And I have since changed them back, also to what was supplied by Litchfield. So, no, I'm not picking other speed curve values at random. I'm not picking them at all. The Litchfield folks picked them.
As far as I know, the only CV that is different from what they shipped is CV54 (which was shipped as 50 but self-adjusted to 96, and 29, which was 14 (??) and I changed it to 50.
I have to ask, why would you ever think to ask if someone would pick speed curve values at random? Do you really think anyone would do that? Do you really think I might? Do you see that a person might see that as insulting? Did you mean it that way?