Trains.com

Subscriber & Member Login

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

Turnout Electrical Problems

9736 views
63 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    January 2010
  • From: Chi-Town
  • 7,712 posts
Posted by zstripe on Sunday, August 27, 2017 1:27 PM

A pic of an Atlas custom line #4 turnout that was powered after turnout was installed and ballasted with a hole drilled through one of the holes on the side of the frog and a #24 gauge solid wire stuck into the hole with insulation removed from the frog end with a 90 degree bend in the wire that rests in the top of the hole and a 1-72 black flat head machine screw inserted in the hole with the wire and tightened flush with hole. You can camoflage the screw head if you like.....I didn't care cause it really is not that noticeable unless close to it. I sanded off the black on the frog as well as on all the Atlas turnouts that I have.

The frog is powered by a SPDT slide-switch connected directly under the throw-bar in the center with the switch on it's side...power comes from stock rails...the turnout is controlled by a Caboose Ind. N-Scale 206s ground throw.......I use N-scale instead of HO-scale beastly looking ground throws......I only use them with #4 turnouts and they work fine......no matter what You may have heard about not working on HO scale....they work great for Me..

Take Care! Big Smile

Frank

  • Member since
    December 2015
  • From: Shenandoah Valley
  • 9,094 posts
Posted by BigDaddy on Sunday, August 27, 2017 1:28 PM

I think Randy has better quality engines that we do.

Henry

COB Potomac & Northern

Shenandoah Valley

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Maryland
  • 12,897 posts
Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, August 27, 2017 1:35 PM

7j43k

So that black frog casting is blackened metal instead of black plastic?

Interesting.

 

Ed

 

For about 30 years now.......as I look at the catalog specs for the Atlas "Mark II" turnout in the 1988 Walthers catalog "metal frog and improved extruded switch points".

Have you ever used an Atlas turnout?

Like Frank, I sand off the black on top.....

Sheldon

    

  • Member since
    June 2011
  • 158 posts
Posted by Old Fat Robert on Sunday, August 27, 2017 1:39 PM

Frank: So the caboose industries machine has enough "uumph" to move the slide switch? That is interesting since I have had a couple of the HO ones actually break apart (although I have used them for years). 

Old Fat Robert

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • From: Chi-Town
  • 7,712 posts
Posted by zstripe on Sunday, August 27, 2017 1:43 PM

BigDaddy

I think Randy has better quality engines that we do.

 

You really can't get any better than Kato drive RS2's and I use a lot of them.....Kato's that is and I use DC......BUT....NO hic-cups what so ever at 2 miles per.....even with not so clean track.....and that is what I wanted......Smile, Wink & Grin

Take Care! Big Smile

Frank

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,281 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, August 27, 2017 1:43 PM

starman
 

I have connected feeders from all 3 ends of each turnout, as well as each track segment.  The puzzling thing is that my engines (a 2-8-8-2 steam and a GP30 diesel) travel over a few turnouts just fine, but if going slow, actually come to a stop over most turnouts.

In that case, I doubt that the turnouts are the problem. You have plenty of feeders, so something else is likely the problem.

Rich

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    May 2004
  • 7,500 posts
Posted by 7j43k on Sunday, August 27, 2017 1:45 PM

FWIW, I was wondering how I got it into my head that an Atlas Custom Line switch would have a plastic frog.

I found this:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HO-TRAIN-VINTAGE-ATLAS-CUSTOM-LINE-RIGHT-HAND-BRASS-6-SWITCH-TURNOUT-NIP-/172806572905?hash=item283c130b69:g:8REAAOSwL7VWtLU2

 

from the olden days.  It also appears that the Custom Line Mark 2's and later have the metal frog, as shown earlier.

 

Sorry about the confusion generated by myself.

 

Ed

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Maryland
  • 12,897 posts
Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, August 27, 2017 1:45 PM

Old Fat Robert

Frank: So the caboose industries machine has enough "uumph" to move the slide switch? That is interesting since I have had a couple of the HO ones actually break apart (although I have used them for years). 

Old Fat Robert

 

I don't have a photo handy, but I actually us a sub minature slide switch mounted next to the turnout as my ground throw. It powers the frog and does power routing for thoe siding insome cases.

I drill a hole in the handle and make little "Z" springs from music wire. 

Maybe not real prototypical looking, but small, unobtrusive, easy for operators to throw with the same little screwdriver they are uncoupling cars with and it does the job with one part......

Sheldon

    

  • Member since
    May 2004
  • 7,500 posts
Posted by 7j43k on Sunday, August 27, 2017 1:47 PM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

 

 

Have you ever used an Atlas turnout?

Like Frank, I sand off the black on top.....

Sheldon

 

 

Well, yes.  In my first layout.  Which preceded "Mark 2" by 20 years, or so.  I guess.

 

Ed

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Maryland
  • 12,897 posts
Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, August 27, 2017 1:49 PM

7j43k

 

 
ATLANTIC CENTRAL

 

 

Have you ever used an Atlas turnout?

Like Frank, I sand off the black on top.....

Sheldon

 

 

 

 

Well, yes.  In my first layout.  Which preceded "Mark 2" by 20 years, or so.  I guess.

 

Ed

 

So what do you use now? I've been using Atlas code 83 since it came out, never found a reason to spend more, got tired of building them myself........

My first layout was Tru-Scale milled roadbed track and turnouts, some RTR, some kit form.

Sheldon

    

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,281 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, August 27, 2017 1:52 PM

I always use Atlas Custom Line, but I once accidentally bought a pair of Mark IVs to make a crossover. I don't really know what the difference is except that the Mark IVs may be longer than the Custom Line.

Rich

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    July 2013
  • 245 posts
Posted by starman on Sunday, August 27, 2017 1:58 PM

richhotrain

I always use Atlas Custom Line, but I once accidentally bought a pair of Mark IVs to make a crossover. I don't really know what the difference is except that the Mark IVs may be longer than the Custom Line.

Rich

 

My Atlas HO turnout package for code 100 says Custon Line Turnout on the side and "Mark IV" across the top.  I purchased them about 6 months ago.  Is there as difference between Custon Line and Mark IV?

Jack

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • From: Chi-Town
  • 7,712 posts
Posted by zstripe on Sunday, August 27, 2017 2:00 PM

Old Fat Robert,

I have not had Any N-scale 206s throws break yet from moving the points with sub slide switch.....most were installed in the mid 80's...I do make sure they move smoothly. I use Homosote roadbed throughout My layout. The groundthrows are screwed to the Homosote with #0 round head black wood screws,3/8ths that fit right in the holes on the ground throw....track is spiked down with ME 3/8ths spikes and ballast cement is Woodland scenics mixed with Alcohol only......works for Me....Smile, Wink & Grin

Take Care! Big Smile

Frank

 

  • Member since
    May 2004
  • 7,500 posts
Posted by 7j43k on Sunday, August 27, 2017 2:04 PM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
 

 

So what do you use now? I've been using Atlas code 83 since it came out, never found a reason to spend more, got tired of building them myself........

My first layout was Tru-Scale milled roadbed track and turnouts, some RTR, some kit form.

Sheldon

 

 

Walthers Code 83.

One of my daydream projects will involve hand-made switches.  As far as it getting done, see: "daydream", above.

Back in the olden days, I got a good deal on a box of 20" radius Tru-Scale roadbed and ties.  I bent every spike I tried using.  Being young and dumb (as opposed to now), I didn't think of pre-drilling.  I did do some hand-laid track and switches, but that stretch of track was never actually "brought into service".  It LOOKED promising, though.

 

 

Ed

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,281 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, August 27, 2017 2:07 PM

starman

 

 
richhotrain

I always use Atlas Custom Line, but I once accidentally bought a pair of Mark IVs to make a crossover. I don't really know what the difference is except that the Mark IVs may be longer than the Custom Line.

Rich

 

 

 

My Atlas HO turnout package for code 100 says Custon Line Turnout on the side and "Mark IV" across the top.  I purchased them about 6 months ago.  Is there as difference between Custon Line and Mark IV?

Jack

 

Dunno, I wonder the same thing. There may be a difference in length.

Rich

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    May 2004
  • 7,500 posts
Posted by 7j43k on Sunday, August 27, 2017 2:08 PM

starman

My Atlas HO turnout package for code 100 says Custon Line Turnout on the side and "Mark IV" across the top.  I purchased them about 6 months ago.  Is there as difference between Custon Line and Mark IV?

Jack

 

 

This line of Atlas track (and there were others--Snap Switches, and fiber-tied, as I recall) started as "Custom Line".  The fiber-tied switches had to have preceded the plastic-tied.  I think.  I SUSPECT that the Snap Switches came before the Custom Line stuff.  Their big claim to fame is that they directly substituted for a (18"? radius) curve of Snap Track.  As sales of that took off (?), I think Atlas decided to make some more tradional trackage:  #4 and #6 switches, for one.  Note that Snap Track was designed to be, as much as possible, modular.  A lot of beginners weren't comfortable cutting flex-track to length.  Custom Line is not modular, and you have to cut your flex-track to fit.  

The next version of the switch (which started using the cast metal frog) was "Custom Line Mark 2".  I have no idea what difference there is between each Mark.

 

Ed

 

  • Member since
    September 2006
  • 411 posts
Posted by wobblinwheel on Sunday, August 27, 2017 2:45 PM

I don't know whether this has already been brought up, as I have not read all of the replies, but I have at least 20 Atlas turnouts (various styles) on my layout. Over the years, at least half of them have developed "dead" rail sections. Not always the same rail, depending on the turnout. There's something "internally" wrong with these turnouts that can't be easily fixed! I have found the only sensible way of correcting this is to solder jumper wires to the offending rails. They just seem to fail "out of the blue" with no explanation. N-scale Atlas turnouts are even WORSE! The guy at Atlas (forgot his name) offerd to replace all of my offending turnouts, but removing and replacing the turnouts was a LOT more trouble than adding jumpers....

Mike C.

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Maryland
  • 12,897 posts
Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, August 27, 2017 2:52 PM

OK, some facts:

Atlas Custom Line goes all the way back to the 1950's.

I have an original 1957 copy of their track planning book which explains and lays out all the geometry of the #4, #6, wye, and the various crossings.

Mark IV is Custom Line. It is the 4th version of improvements that have been made.

IIRC, improvements as follows:

Original had plastic frog and stamped points, riveted pivot, and riveted to throw bar.

Mark II - isolated metal frog and "better" points, still pivoted on rivets

Mark III - Rivets gone at pivot, still riveted to throw bar, much better points

Mark IV - rivets gone, points clip into thowbar which is removeable and reversable

There are some minor variations between the code 100 and code 83 product, I have not used the code 100 product in over 20 years.....

"Snap Track" is train set track, curved plastic frogs that equal 18" radius. It has co-existed with Custom Line as long as I can remember. I got into the hobby in 1968, was working in the hobby shop starting in 1971......it was my job to know this stuff......

The Atlas Custom line #4 is really a #4-1/2......

The 18"R "Snap Switch" is about a #3-1/2......

All Atlas turnouts have feed through jumpers under the frog.

All the metal frogs have lugs for adding power.

Sheldon 

    

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Maryland
  • 12,897 posts
Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, August 27, 2017 3:00 PM

7j43k

 

 
ATLANTIC CENTRAL
 

 

So what do you use now? I've been using Atlas code 83 since it came out, never found a reason to spend more, got tired of building them myself........

My first layout was Tru-Scale milled roadbed track and turnouts, some RTR, some kit form.

Sheldon

 

 

 

 

Walthers Code 83.

One of my daydream projects will involve hand-made switches.  As far as it getting done, see: "daydream", above.

Back in the olden days, I got a good deal on a box of 20" radius Tru-Scale roadbed and ties.  I bent every spike I tried using.  Being young and dumb (as opposed to now), I didn't think of pre-drilling.  I did do some hand-laid track and switches, but that stretch of track was never actually "brought into service".  It LOOKED promising, though.

 

 

Ed

 

Walthers code 83 is a nice track line, no question. I use it for specials like slip switches.

But it is not without its own issues as you likely know.

For use with my DC Advanced Cab Control, I prefer the feed thru wiring of the Atlas.

I have even used Atlas frogs and points to build some specials, generally curved turnouts using parts from the Atlas code 83 #8.

Hand layed has its own advantages and disadvantages.......using the Atlas parts is the best of both worlds for me.

Sheldon 

    

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,281 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, August 27, 2017 3:03 PM

Mark IV is a Custom Line product, but not all Custom Line turnouts are Mark IV.

Atlas makes both Custom Line and Custom Line-Mark IV.

Rich

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    December 2015
  • From: Shenandoah Valley
  • 9,094 posts
Posted by BigDaddy on Sunday, August 27, 2017 3:11 PM

In their online downloadable catalog there are both code 100 and code 83 snap switches.  All the Code 100's are called Mark 4's, of the code 83, #4 and $6's are called Custom-line, #8's are called Custom-line Mark 4.

Returning to the OP's question, why does he have a problem only on some turnouts and not others?

Henry

COB Potomac & Northern

Shenandoah Valley

  • Member since
    February 2002
  • From: Reading, PA
  • 30,002 posts
Posted by rrinker on Sunday, August 27, 2017 3:14 PM

BigDaddy

I think Randy has better quality engines that we do.

 

 Just the wheels are clean and so is the track, plus I make sure the pickups are all working - hence the Athearn RS-3 chassis shoved in a drawer awaiting even more drastic action because soldering a wire to bypass the bolster contact to the frame still didn't fix the lack of pickup on one side of one truck.

 A 2-8-8-2, if it picks up on both the tender and the loco, has no excuse. The whole thing is way longer than the turnout, let alone the dead area of the frog. Something like that has some other problems if it stalls just because the frog isn't powered. It it stalling for lack of power, or is it stalling because it shorts out?

                          --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

  • Member since
    February 2002
  • From: Reading, PA
  • 30,002 posts
Posted by rrinker on Sunday, August 27, 2017 3:21 PM

 The only ones that aren;t Mark IV's are the Code 83 #6's sold as Super Track. That never really went anywhere and I'm not sure they even make those any more.

The Custom-Line name goes way back, the current production is the 4th revision, hence Mark IV. The first Custom Line turnouts were, I think, power routing and needed gaps in the diverging frog rails. It was later versions that came to be made the way they are today - electrically the same as Snap Track, but geometrically like a proper prototypical turnout.

 The things you find reading all the old MRs - I read, a LOT, so when I first got the 75 year DVD I started with Volume 1 Number 1 and read them all in order up to the time I had a steady subscription. 

                        --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

  • Member since
    July 2013
  • 245 posts
Posted by starman on Sunday, August 27, 2017 3:29 PM

rrinker

 . . . plus I make sure the pickups are all working . . .

How should I go about checking to see if the pickups on my diesel are working properly?

I spent some time this afternoon running my engines through the turnouts to see exactly what is happening.  I have found that my 2-8-8-2 does not have any problem with the turnouts.

Jack

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,281 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, August 27, 2017 3:33 PM

It's all very confusing. When you look on the Atlas web site, they show the Code 83 #6 as Custom Line and the Code 83 #8 as Custom Line-Mark IV.

Rich

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Maryland
  • 12,897 posts
Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, August 27, 2017 3:42 PM

A little research confirmed Atlas Custom Line introduced in late 1955 or early 1956 andwas offered side by side with Snap Track and the old fiber tie track line. I think the fiber tie turnouts lasted until the early/mid 60's.

Sheldon

    

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Maryland
  • 12,897 posts
Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, August 27, 2017 3:45 PM

richhotrain

It's all very confusing. When you look on the Atlas web site, they show the Code 83 #6 as Custom Line and the Code 83 #8 as Custom Line-Mark IV.

Rich

 

Not sure why they did that, but understand the whole code 83 line has always had all the features of the code 100 Mark IV.

The code 83 line also includes the #6 "Super Switch", which from an electrical and rail standpoint is the same as a Custom Line but has ties and leads like a Walthers turnout - a longer straight end on the diverging route.

Sheldon

    

  • Member since
    May 2004
  • 7,500 posts
Posted by 7j43k on Sunday, August 27, 2017 4:01 PM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
 

 

Walthers code 83 is a nice track line, no question. I use it for specials like slip switches.

But it is not without its own issues as you likely know.

 

Sheldon 

 

 

Sheldon,

Haven't noticed any particular issues.  I do power the switch frogs.  And I do have feeders soldered to the switch points.  All of the mainline switches are #10, both "DCC friendly" and "not".  I didn't run an NMRA gage through, so maybe there's something there.  On t'other hand, see "no particular problems". 

One of my big gripes with factory switches is the enormous gap between the points and the stock rails.  I hope, in my "you never can tell" upcoming module, to minimize that gap.

Another lesser problem is that the railhead is a snidge (technical term) wider than scale, while the Micro Engineering is pretty much correct.  That, too, shows.  But not horribly, like the points gap.

 

That said, what issues do ya have in mind?

 

 

Ed

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Maryland
  • 12,897 posts
Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, August 27, 2017 4:15 PM

7j43k

 

 
ATLANTIC CENTRAL
 

 

Walthers code 83 is a nice track line, no question. I use it for specials like slip switches.

But it is not without its own issues as you likely know.

 

Sheldon 

 

 

 

 

Sheldon,

Haven't noticed any particular issues.  I do power the switch frogs.  And I do have feeders soldered to the switch points.  All of the mainline switches are #10, both "DCC friendly" and "not".  I didn't run an NMRA gage through, so maybe there's something there.  On t'other hand, see "no particular problems". 

One of my big gripes with factory switches is the enormous gap between the points and the stock rails.  I hope, in my "you never can tell" upcoming module, to minimize that gap.

Another lesser problem is that the railhead is a snidge (technical term) wider than scale, while the Micro Engineering is pretty much correct.  That, too, shows.  But not horribly, like the points gap.

 

That said, what issues do ya have in mind?

 

 

Ed

 

As long as you are using NMRA standards, you need a pretty good "gap" at the points to allow for track gauge vs wheel gauge. I never really engineered how small would be too small......

I've never used the #10, or even built a #10 from scratch, #8's always seemed "big enough" to look good, so I don't have any direct experiance with them or too much relatively new Walther trackage. I have some slips from about 8 years ago, they are fine.

But there have been comments from others about track gauge issues and throw bars, guess it depends a bit on the user as well.

Guess I'm just not that picky, a well balasted, painted and weathered Atlas #6 or #8 looks just fine to me, they work well, they are afordable, and I like their electrical properties for my DC Cab Control w/detection and signals.

I learned to hand lay track from my father who helped me with the Tru-Scale and from the guys who build the Severna Park Model Railroad Club layout. It's easy but time consuming.......

Sheldon

 

    

  • Member since
    May 2004
  • 7,500 posts
Posted by 7j43k on Sunday, August 27, 2017 4:52 PM

I just checked the points clearance on one of my #10's with an NMRA gage.  Clearance on the points is approximately twice the gage allowance.  Pretty silly looking, really.

I'm gonna make that gap as small as possible the next time I build a switch.  There should be no electrical problem, because each point will have the same polarity as its respective stock rail--no short!  About the only scary thing is going to be a wheel flange hitting a point as it approaches.  Which, of course, is not acceptable.  Touching, yes.  "Bumping", absolutely not.

What I'd LOVE to do is have a stiff wire going down vertically from each point end of a switch.  And then have a link between the two wires (one from each point) underneath that I could use to make the gap adjustable.  Admittedly, a dream.  But neat if it can be made to reliably work.

 

 

Ed

Subscriber & Member Login

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

Users Online

There are no community member online

Search the Community

ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT
Model Railroader Newsletter See all
Sign up for our FREE e-newsletter and get model railroad news in your inbox!