richhotrain ROBERT PETRICK Two questions: 1) Does anyone understand why I requested the two yellow mainlines be re-painted? and 2) Does anyone understand the significance? This is not a joke, and I am not trying to start an argument. These are serious questions. Robert Robert, with all due respect, what are you talking about? Rich
ROBERT PETRICK Two questions: 1) Does anyone understand why I requested the two yellow mainlines be re-painted? and 2) Does anyone understand the significance? This is not a joke, and I am not trying to start an argument. These are serious questions. Robert
Two questions: 1) Does anyone understand why I requested the two yellow mainlines be re-painted? and 2) Does anyone understand the significance?
This is not a joke, and I am not trying to start an argument. These are serious questions.
Robert
Robert, with all due respect, what are you talking about?
Rich
Apparently the answer to Question 1 is no, and the answer to Question 2 is also no.
There are no reversing sections on this layout, there is no need to wire it as if there were, there is no need to cut isolation gaps in any rail, and there is no need for any auto-reversers.
The two mainlines form independent closed loops. They are completely isolated from each other despite being parallel and in such close proximity for their entire length. And those blue lines everyone keeps calling reversing sections are not reversing sections. They are crossovers that move traffic from one loop to the other and back again. If wired correctly, there would be no conflicts regarding polarity.
I'm sorry for pointing this out.
LINK to SNSR Blog
ROBERT PETRICK I hesitate to revive this thread . . . During the discussion the other day I did not have access to my AutoCAD computer. I asked if somebody could re-paint the two yellow mainlines on Gary's layout as separate colors. Nobody did. Here's a sketch: I left off the red ferry yard, the green ladder yard, and the yellow passing siding because they have no bearing on the problem. Two questions: 1) Does anyone understand why I requested the two yellow mainlines be re-painted? and 2) Does anyone understand the significance? This is not a joke, and I am not trying to start an argument. These are serious questions. Robert
I hesitate to revive this thread . . .
During the discussion the other day I did not have access to my AutoCAD computer. I asked if somebody could re-paint the two yellow mainlines on Gary's layout as separate colors. Nobody did. Here's a sketch:
I left off the red ferry yard, the green ladder yard, and the yellow passing siding because they have no bearing on the problem.
I give up
Gary
Alton Junction
I know but I'm not going to give it away. I replied to your pm earlier. For some reason I cannot log on with my laptop today.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
The reason I figured it out was Dumb Luck! If I hadn't flipped the layout lights on by accident chances are I would find those old feeders when I got frustrated enough to rip out the section of track and re-do it. This piece is part of the 1/3 left from the old layout.
every time I have a problem Rich, Randy and others join in to try and solve it and so far ..... thanks to you guys we're batting 1000.
Also, Rich if you asked about feeders I would have sworn they were connected correctly. They were, except that there were also additional ones causing the short.
One day I may be able to help someone like you guys
Those old feeders were about 4 inches inside this tunnel.
floridaflyer Actually Rich I think when OP hooked up the the small piece of track and it didn't short it showed that the AR could be hooked up to a isolated piece of track and not short and if the AR were hooked up to the reverse section on the layout and it shorted the problem was with the reverse section. I was slow to realize that.
Actually Rich I think when OP hooked up the the small piece of track and it didn't short it showed that the AR could be hooked up to a isolated piece of track and not short and if the AR were hooked up to the reverse section on the layout and it shorted the problem was with the reverse section. I was slow to realize that.
What often happens in this kind of thread, and this is not a criticism of Gary, is that we tend to presume that the feeders are wired correctly and obviously we shouldn't. From Gary's drawings, we could critique the placement of the gaps, but the feeders are a whole different question.
Anyhow, kudos to Gary who, with Randy's help and that of others, solved his own problem.
[quote user="richhotrain"]
floridaflyer Connecting the AR to a small piece of track may indicate the AR is fine. Bypass the AR and see if there is a short in the reversing section. You could also temporarily hook up the other reversing section using the AR and see if that shorts. If no short then the track and wiring in the problem section is suspect, if it shorts the AR or the wiring leading to the AR is suspect. Moving the location of the gaps shouldn't affect the shorting problem unless in doing so the problem section of track,( if there is a problem section of track) is removed from the reversing section. The cause can only be AR, wiring, track, or a combination of some of the first three. Proving the AR reliable, or not, is in my view the first step.
Connecting the AR to a small piece of track may indicate the AR is fine. Bypass the AR and see if there is a short in the reversing section. You could also temporarily hook up the other reversing section using the AR and see if that shorts. If no short then the track and wiring in the problem section is suspect, if it shorts the AR or the wiring leading to the AR is suspect. Moving the location of the gaps shouldn't affect the shorting problem unless in doing so the problem section of track,( if there is a problem section of track) is removed from the reversing section. The cause can only be AR, wiring, track, or a combination of some of the first three. Proving the AR reliable, or not, is in my view the first step.
I don't think that hooking up the AR with the output to a piece of track proves anything. If you gap a section of track on your layout in order to isolate that section of track, then wire the input side of the AR to the main bus and a set of feeders from the output side to the reversing section, the AR is working if it flips the polarities inside the reversing section as the loco enters or exits the reversing section. We are just making things way to complicated here.
richhotrain Henry, I cannot imagine how we could get on without you.
Henry, I cannot imagine how we could get on without you.
Another 2 years of studying under you and Randy and I might be able to explain the conflict between a circuit breaker and a reverser.
Randy nailed it on his first post
rrinker that's your reversing section, and should be powered only from the output of the Frog Juicer.
I tried to clarify that with my question to Randy, but the placement of the gaps, the other reversing loop, the use of a frog juicer were giant red herrings suckered everyone in.
I could have phrased it better, but I was up all night with a sick dog. If the juicer was set up correctly and if the gaps existed as described (no matter how many extra) there should have been two electrically isolated pieces of track, the mainline and the reversing loop; when he connected the wire and the EB1 shorted.
That could only happen if:
BigDaddyunless there is some other data we need to know about.
well well
Robert;
Imagine 2 parallel tracks, from bottom to top on your screen. At the top they both go through a tunnel. The right track has a right hand turn out that leads to a track that goes up, around horseshoe curve, does a 180 and joins the left track via left hand turn out (as you look at the tunnel)
You have engine A on the left track and engines B & C on the right
A B
C
A&B go down the main and through the tunnel, C takes the right turnout, does the 180 and now it's connects to the left track headed down the screen in an opposite direction as Loco A While it started on a different track, it has returned on a different track, in a reverse orientation from the usual traffic.
richhotrain It would also be interesting to have some measurements. How long is that diagonal stretch of track? How long is that entire loop of track on the outside right? Just curious how much reversing section he has to work with and how many or how few feeders are actually required for efficient operation. Rich
It would also be interesting to have some measurements.
How long is that diagonal stretch of track?
How long is that entire loop of track on the outside right?
Just curious how much reversing section he has to work with and how many or how few feeders are actually required for efficient operation.
Diagnal 4' to switch, loop about 11'.
PROBLEM SOLVED!
In 500 years you could (or at least I could) NEVER guess what the problem was.
1st I connected to the other loop. ALL fine.
Then - By accident I turned on the power for the layout lights instead of the DCC system and the loco sitting on the reverse loop comes on! . I got it, the layout is haunted and there is nothing I can do .
Probably Rich and Randy remember this was a DC Layout. At that time I used telephone wire to power the Blocks. This being a reverse loop it too had telephone wire. I "thought" I ripped it all out only leaving the telephone wire connected to lighting.
Inside a tunnel adjacent to a passenger station (lighted) was a set of track feeders which I thought were light wires and connected them to the 12VDC power supply. I guess enough of a short to trip the EB1 Even without the 12V power on.
THANKS for all the help and improvements to the track plan.
Rich totally agree if he goes from the top sw original gap to the point side of the bottom sw simply as can be But he had 4 sets of gaps, a switch and three sets of fedeers from the reversing unit thats just looking for trouble
mikeGTWRandy this is just a guess and maybe you can say yes or no but could that switch at the bottom have something to do with the short ? He said he ran wires to three different sections of the reverse loop
rrinker If it shorts oout as soon as the wires are hooked up, then you definitely have a failed gap or a feeder hooked up on the opposite side of the gap somewhere. Witht he Frog Juicer not connected, try measuring voltage across the gaps, and also diagonally across the gaps (right rail on one side of gap to left rail oon oopposite side of gap, and vice-versa). With the gaps in place and no power feeders to the reverse section, you should not get any reading no matter where you measure across the gaps. The reverse section should be completely dead. If not - you've found the problem. --Randy
If it shorts oout as soon as the wires are hooked up, then you definitely have a failed gap or a feeder hooked up on the opposite side of the gap somewhere. Witht he Frog Juicer not connected, try measuring voltage across the gaps, and also diagonally across the gaps (right rail on one side of gap to left rail oon oopposite side of gap, and vice-versa). With the gaps in place and no power feeders to the reverse section, you should not get any reading no matter where you measure across the gaps. The reverse section should be completely dead. If not - you've found the problem.
--Randy
Will do
Gary, I edited my post while you were responding. Will be interested to see if the other reversing section shorts or not.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
floridaflyer Connecting the AR to a small piece of track won't tell you much, as the rails are not connected is any way. Bypass the AR and see if there is a short in the reversing section. You could also temporarily hook up the other reversing section using the AR and see if that shorts. moving the location of the gaps shouldn't affect the shorting problem unless in doing so the problem section of track,( if there is a problem section of track) is removed from the reversing section.
Connecting the AR to a small piece of track won't tell you much, as the rails are not connected is any way. Bypass the AR and see if there is a short in the reversing section. You could also temporarily hook up the other reversing section using the AR and see if that shorts. moving the location of the gaps shouldn't affect the shorting problem unless in doing so the problem section of track,( if there is a problem section of track) is removed from the reversing section.
I can run some temporary wires to the other section and see what happens.
richhotrain OK, I took a much closer look at that first diagram. It looks like you are creating a larger reversing section than just that the diagonal track. So, you want that reversing section to be not only the diagonal track but also that entire outer loop? If that is the case, then you need to remove the gap on the divergent side of that lower turnout feeding into the diagonal section of track. That alone, however, may not eliminate the short but, hey, one step at a time. Rich
OK, I took a much closer look at that first diagram. It looks like you are creating a larger reversing section than just that the diagonal track. So, you want that reversing section to be not only the diagonal track but also that entire outer loop?
If that is the case, then you need to remove the gap on the divergent side of that lower turnout feeding into the diagonal section of track. That alone, however, may not eliminate the short but, hey, one step at a time.
1st question = Yes. However I already closed the gaps and will add the gap on the turnout point to the Ferry Yard so that the reverse section will be from Top Right to the turnout point on bottom. The diagonal And the turnout will be part of the main line.
I'm going to cut a gap at the turnout point next.
richhotrain gdelmoro Rich you are correct. The Juicer is ONLY being used as an Auto-Reverser. I can put a different kind of auto reverser in if the Juicer could be causing the short. I do have to have an auto-reverser, correct? ahh, OK, that helps clarify matters a bit. So, the reversing section at the upper left is controlled by the MRC AD520 and that works OK? But, the diagonal reversing section is controlled by the AR function of the Frog Juicer and that is shorting out? I'm not suggesting that the Frog Juicer is faulty, but it may be wired wrong. As far as gaps are concerned, it seems to me that the only gaps required on the diagonal reversing section would be on the ends of the divergent sides of the two turnouts that begin and end that reversing section. One more thing, as I look at your second diagram, the AR should be wired on the input side from the main bus, and the feeders to the reversing section should be wired from the output side of the AR. Your diagram shows feeders to both the reversing section and the non-reversing section............or so it seems. Rich
gdelmoro Rich you are correct. The Juicer is ONLY being used as an Auto-Reverser. I can put a different kind of auto reverser in if the Juicer could be causing the short. I do have to have an auto-reverser, correct?
Rich you are correct. The Juicer is ONLY being used as an Auto-Reverser. I can put a different kind of auto reverser in if the Juicer could be causing the short.
I do have to have an auto-reverser, correct?
ahh, OK, that helps clarify matters a bit.
So, the reversing section at the upper left is controlled by the MRC AD520 and that works OK?
But, the diagonal reversing section is controlled by the AR function of the Frog Juicer and that is shorting out?
I'm not suggesting that the Frog Juicer is faulty, but it may be wired wrong.
As far as gaps are concerned, it seems to me that the only gaps required on the diagonal reversing section would be on the ends of the divergent sides of the two turnouts that begin and end that reversing section.
One more thing, as I look at your second diagram, the AR should be wired on the input side from the main bus, and the feeders to the reversing section should be wired from the output side of the AR. Your diagram shows feeders to both the reversing section and the non-reversing section............or so it seems.
The upper left reversing section is not hooked up yet.
Yes Right side reversing loop is where the short is.
NOTE: I left the Juicer AR hooked to the Mainline bus and took a random piece of spare track and hooked it to that. NO short.
The original plan was to have that whole section from diverging from the main (Top Right) all the way to the intersect with the main again (Center Left)-the diagona so there were THREE feeders from the AR to make sure there was consistent power.
gdelmoro The short occurs about 2 seconds after power is turned on. I can hear some rapid clicking then it trips.
The short occurs about 2 seconds after power is turned on. I can hear some rapid clicking then it trips.
Regardless of which way the reversing section ends up, I would temporarily connect the input wires coming into the AR directly to the reversing section, bypassing the AR. If there is no short the AR is suspect. If there is a short the track or wiring is suspect. Polarity won't matter as the section is isolated.
DCC Dual Frog Juicer and Auto-ReverserFor all DCC systems including NCE PowerCab. This board can be configured to use as an automatic polarity reverser for two frogs, a reversing loop, a turntable, a wye, or a crossing. It uses the same basic design as the hex frog juicer but has 33 Amp transistors so it can be used with multi-unit lashups and 10 Amp boosters. Setup is simple, connect the input to the DCC track bus, and connect the output wires either to two frogs or two rails. A jumper controls whether the two outputs act as a pair (i.e. an auto-reverser) or independently (i.e. a pair of frog juicers). Another pair of jumpers controls the current set point for switching, either 2 Amps or 4 Amps. When used for frogs or crossings generally 2 Amps work best and for an auto-reversing application, 4 Amps generally works best.