I'm experimenting with drilling holes in rail to attach invisible feeders. The instructions with the drill bit says to run at 3,000 RPM for hard materials and 10,000 RPM for soft material. In this case would nickel silver rail be considered hard or soft?
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
It's part nickel, zinc and copper. I would think copper and brass would be considered on the soft side. Do you really have a drill that turns at 10,000 rpm or even 3000 rpm?
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I would use the slow speed. 10000 rpm would be ok for plastic maybe brass if you ar carefull. Use slow speed and DO NOT FORCE the bit.
BigDaddyDo you really have a drill that turns at 10,000 rpm or even 3000 rpm?
Using a Dremel cordless. Regular drill is too clunky for 1/32" bit.
Bearing in mind there are varying formulations for nickel silver, it is generally considered a hard metal, even replacing stainless steel in some applications.
I would use a slow speed and a cutting lubricant, unless the drill or material supplier indicated otherwise.
CG
CG,
The n/s rail in HO track is definitely a soft metal. A razor saw will cut through it. Try that with steel rail(now, that is hard)!
What I do not understand is why the original poster wants to drill feeder holes in the rail. I just remove the web between two ties and solder the feeder to the bottom of the rail - completely 'invisible'!
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
You can see here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_copper_alloys
that the hardness of brass and nickel silver are approximately the same. Note that annealing softens both metals.
As opposed to steel, these metals can only be hardened by work-hardening. Such as being drawn through rollers to make rail. They cannot be hardened by heating and quenching.
Here is a short list of other hardnesses:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brinell_scale
Note in particular the number for steel and compare it with the copper alloy numbers.
When in doubt, it's usually better to go with a slower RPM for drilling. The only downside is that the task takes longer. Which may or may not be a problem for you.
Ed
jrbernierWhat I do not understand is why the original poster wants to drill feeder holes in the rail
You did see where I said "experimenting", right?
I test drilled a couple with a pin vise, which took way too long, but having less than 3 hands I find it far easier to solder a wire into a hole than soldering to the surface of the rail.
I'm also avoiding the new DCC decoders that have solder pads instead of holes in the PCB.
I read all that as yellow brass 55, nickel silver (ASTM B122) cold rolled 170. That is signifigantly harder. I know from experience that brass rod is much easier to cut than NS rail.
At 5,000 RPM, this awesome little bit goes through the base of the rail in less than 10 seconds.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0019F5AO6/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
It leaves a nice clean hole that I can bring a solid piece of 22 ga wire up through easily. Only question remaining is how long each bit lasts. At $10 for 3 bits, I'd be happy if they give me a dozen holes each.
Interesting find. Looks like they are out of everything but the 0.5 mm (20 thou) model.
Small tip forceps are available from most anywhere including Micro Mark. They will easily hold a feeder wire against the rail for soldering, or a decoder wire against a solder pad. It's not going to fall off, and unless you try to swing the loco around by the wires attached to the decoder, it won;t pull off either. COnsider most electronic components on those very same decoders are surface mounted, no holes to be found. They certianly don't just fall off from use, and they aren't all that easy to pop off with just your fingers.
I'd consider drlling the rail for large sizes - maybe O, certainly Large Scale. With large scale there are even rail clamps that go through drilled holes just liek prototype joint bars, as well as the kind that just clamp against the rail.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
CentralGulf I read all that as yellow brass 55, nickel silver (ASTM B122) cold rolled 170. That is signifigantly harder. I know from experience that brass rod is much easier to cut than NS rail. CG
You are quoting the ANNEALED brass hardness of 55, and the COLD ROLLED hardness of nickel silver, which is 170. Cold rolling typically hardens metals.
You should have compared either the ANNEALED numbers (55, 70) OR the COLD ROLLED numbers (180, 170).
I would recommend the latter, because model railroad rail is, yes, COLD ROLLED. And, in that case, the brass is slightly harder by 10 points. Our rail, brass or nickel silver, is left un-annealed because:
(1) It takes another step. Which costs the manufacturer money. Especially so, since model railroad rail is a small-production process.
(2) If the rail were annealed, it would bend easier. Which is a bad thing if you are trying to lay straight track.
As an experiment, I just did the annealing process on some formerly valuable nickel silver rail. It became MUCH easier to bend. Thus corroborating my assertion that our rail is cold rolled.
I can think of two ways to explain your experience:
One is that the brass rod you were cutting has been annealed.
Or, two, you found it harder to cut because the cross-section is complex, and thus difficult to saw in a smooth consistent manner.
Ideally, you would be sawing both brass and nickel silver rail for the comparison. I have done so, and I found no difference.
You are right, I misread the chart.
But regardless of NS rail's hardness relative to cold drawn brass, numerous web sources refer to it as hard, which was the original question.
On Carl's interest on making invisble feeder attachments:
I have been doing this for quite some time with Code 83 NS rail. I bend my feeder wire into an L, with about a 3/16" tail. I solder this tail lengthwise onto the rail bottom. I spot a hole to run the feeder through to underneath the layout. If there is a tie in the way, I cut a notch.
I have also attached feeders to the frog assembly, closure rails (if necessary) and to the points of switches for positive electrical feed.
I have had no problems. Yet. My only anxiety would be for the points, where there is movement. I have allowed a good bit of clearance under the rails for wire movement; and, so far, have had no failures.
IF I had a failure on the points, I would consider drilling a hole. Or I might possibly use stranded wire, though I suspect the solder might run down the wire and "solidify" it.
If you got some Navel Brass you would find it a lot harder than regular brass.
The whole point of this thread was the OP's query so he could decide what drill speed to use.
The holes are drilled. Whatever speed he used was a success, it seems.
I use the two hand method to attach feeders. Tin the side of the rail. tin the end of the feeder. Hold the end of the tinned feeder to the tinned rail. Touch with the hot sldering iron. Hold a few seconds until cool.
But if drilling, add some lubrication to make the bit last longer.
Martin Myers
mfm37 I use the two hand method to attach feeders. Tin the side of the rail. tin the end of the feeder. Hold the end of the tinned feeder to the tinned rail. Touch with the hot sldering iron. Hold a few seconds until cool. But if drilling, add some lubrication to make the bit last longer. Martin Myers
If you add lubrication, it would be wise to remove it from the part before soldering. That alone might convince me NOT to lubricate the bit.
I drill a fair amount of steel, and my aversion to cleaning off the lubricant keeps me from applying it. If I add up all the time it takes to apply and clean up lube, that's a LOT more than the cost of a drill bit. Which I really should be re-sharpening, anyway.
rrinkerSmall tip forceps are available from most anywhere including Micro Mark. They will easily hold a feeder wire against the rail for soldering
I’ve got some of these left over from the 70’s. I find they act as a heatsink when used as you suggest and amplify the flaws in my soldering skills.
rrinker I'd consider drlling the rail for large sizes
I’m curious why if a hole is good for large scales, why not for HO?
CentralGulfThe holes are drilled. Whatever speed he used was a success, it seems.
mfm37I use the two hand method to attach feeders. Tin the side of the rail. tin the end of the feeder. Hold the end of the tinned feeder to the tinned rail. Touch with the hot sldering iron. Hold a few seconds until cool.
7j43kIf I add up all the time it takes to apply and clean up lube, that's a LOT more than the cost of a drill bit.
carl425 rrinker I'd consider drlling the rail for large sizes I’m curious why if a hole is good for large scales, why not for HO?
rrinker
I'd consider drlling the rail for large sizes
Mainly an issue of size. To get joint bars in HO PLUS drill holes small enough not to destroy all physical integrity in the rail, AND get nuts and bolts small enough to fit that actually hold and don't simply strip when trying to tighten them down - those would be some really tiny nuts and bolts. Rail joiners and solder are plenty strong enough to ensure the integrity of a joint for HO and smaller scales. Large scale locos can be quite heavy plus especially in an outdoor layout you can have significant stress on the rails. Soldering the huge cross section without melting the plastic ties can be tough, plus some large scale rail is not easily solderable - it's made of materials other than brass or nickle silver.
carl,
I am curious. You say you want invisible feeder connections for your HO rail. And I have described how I do it. And I do not drill holes in the rail. I wonder why you negate/ignore what I see as a valid approach.
I also wonder just where you have drilled your holes. For a truly invisible connection, it would have to be in the base, and up into the web. THAT is a truly tiny hole. Is that what you did?
In my experience, my soldered joints do not fail. And they are invisible. I do admit to a slight concern about feeders soldered to point rails, however. I could concede that a drilled hole MIGHT be appropriate in this case.
I will mention that I use resistance soldering for these connections. I reccommend it highly.
7j43kI am curious. You say you want invisible feeder connections for your HO rail. And I have described how I do it. And I do not drill holes in the rail. I wonder why you negate/ignore what I see as a valid approach.
The only soldering task I have been unable to perform consistently is soldering feeders to rail - even the visible type. Depending on how many I have to do at once, my failure rate varies between 20% and 50%. If I have a hole to hold the wire, it always works. So I guess you could say I'm using the hole as a crutch.
I am drilling a 1/32" hole through the base of the rail. I feed the 22 ga. solid copper wire up through the hole, solder, then flush cut and file smooth. The process leaves behind a copper dot that will be hidden when the rail is painted. On track that will be hidden, I feed the wire down through the hole and skip the cut and file steps.
An interesting feature of this approach is that I can put the feeder through either side of the rail which helps in situations where it is difficult to reach the outside of the rail away from me.
This works for me every time, it's faster (for me at least), and achieves the desired result.
edit: Just to be clear, I am using Atlas flextrack with plastic ties that is already glued down to the roadbed. Rereading the description of your process sounds like you may be ataching feeders to rail before it is installed on ties.
carl425The only soldering task I have been unable to perform consistently is soldering feeders to rail - even the visible type. Depending on how many I have to do at once, my failure rate varies between 20% and 50%. If I have a hole to hold the wire, it always works. So I guess you could say I'm using the hole as a crutch. I am drilling a 1/32" hole through the base of the rail. I feed the 22 ga. solid copper wire up through the hole, solder, then flush cut and file smooth. The process leaves behind a copper dot that will be hidden when the rail is painted. On track that will be hidden, I feed the wire down through the hole and skip the cut and file steps. An interesting feature of this approach is that I can put the feeder through either side of the rail which helps in situations where it is difficult to reach the outside of the rail away from me. This works for me every time, it's faster (for me at least), and achieves the desired result. edit: Just to be clear, I am using Atlas flextrack with plastic ties that is already glued down to the roadbed. Rereading the description of your process sounds like you may be ataching feeders to rail before it is installed on ties.
I see. And I can also see the utility. Especially if the track is already installed. In fact, I think I'll file the concept away for possible later use. I do wonder about getting a file down in there. Perhaps a riffler file? If so, I've got some tucked away, never used. Yet.
So far, all my feeder soldering has been to the bottoms of Walthers Code 83 track, using resistance soldering. I do it upside down, so that the probe is pressing downward to hold the wire to the rail. And the rail is supported by a worksurface. And there is no need for a hole.
I must add a correction: I re-examined my solder joints and found that the wires are soldered crossways, not lengthwise. I assume my mistake was that I recalled an earlier experiment.
I also note that for regular trackwork, I had the option of cutting out a tie at the solder joint and adding pieces back in later. For the switches, that was not acceptable. And was a good bit more delicate.
Speaking of drilling teeny holes in unusual places, I've got in mind to someday pick up one of these:
http://www.foredom.net/lxb-emx.aspx
It's their low-speed model, maxing out at 5000 RPM. I plan on only using it for drilling and cutting, so I think the low-speed model a good choice. Their "regular" models spin much faster, and are more appropriate for polishing. For high speed work, I would use my semi-trusty Dremel tool.
7j43k Perhaps a riffler file?
Thanks! I was trying to remember the name for those so I could order a set. I've been using a flat sided needle file that is just flexible enough so I can get in there with the bottom of the smile.
Amazon's got 'em for $10 a set and up.
What is the failure mode for these wire connection? With solid feeder wire, you should be able to bend it to maintain a slight tension pushing it against the rail (unless you have a prehensile tail or somethign to hold the wire while you have the soldering iron in oen hand and the solder in the other). Two prep steps - file or use a Dremel abrasive of some sort (those brass scratch brushes Micro Mark sells also would work) to clean the rail at the spot of attachment - drilling a hole also does this, so that may be why the hole method works better, and also a dab of flux on the rail at the point of attachment. Bend the wire in contact witht he rail, apply a CLEAN hot iron tip, apply solder to the joint (NOT the iron tip) and presto, it should eb soldered. 40-60 watts of soldering iron power should be plenty, my soldering station is 60 watts. The tip needs to be clean and shiny and properly tinned - this to speed the heat conduction so you don;t have to linger so long that you melt the plastic ties.
Randy,
Carl is making an invisible wire connection on track that is already in place. Thus there can be no wire showing on the sides of the rail.
It sounds like he has been successful in his attempts.
7j43kIt sounds like he has been successful in his attempts.
Here's the first one. I got a little heavy handed with the file and knocked off some spike heads (riflers haven't come yet) but I think I can do better. You can see the wire coming up from under the rail and the copper dot where it comes through.
On trick I remember from an old MR, if you are using solid feeder wire, zig-zag it so when you push it up the hole, it grips the sides. This will hold the wire tightly in contact with the underside of the rail so it can be securely soldered without any sort of holes. The solid physical contact is the key to making the solder joint solid and reliable.
The other option for an "invisible" feeder is to drill through the tie and flatten the end of the wire like a spike head.