I'm doing some work on my layout, and it occurred to me that I should probably care about at least knowing why I should power the frog. Atlas turnouts are isolated, so I don't really have to deal with it per se, but under what situations does it become critical?
My roster consists of:
1x Bachmann DDA40X
3x Bachmann GP30
1x Proto 2000 (LL era) GP20
1x Proto 2000 GP30
1x BLI E9A/B set
2x Walthers Trainline coach cars, will at some point be lighted.
Assorted freight cars with metal wheels, 50' at the longest. Includes an Athearn UP bay window caboose that will be lighted at some point.
I've built the layout so that the DDA40X can get to everything, even the deepest parts of the yards.
A ScaleTrains Big Blows may be in my future as well, so I have that to consider, but I feel like that's less of a concern than the DDA40X's D-D trucks.
Advice?
Julian
Modeling Pre-WP merger UP (1974-81)
fiery,
The shorter your locomotives are; the more important live/powered frogs become. I have a number of yard switchers - e.g. 0-6-0s, 0-8-0s, SW1s, HH660s, VO-660s, VO-1000s, etc. Live frogs really help to eliminate any dead spots when moving over turnouts with smaller locos. Cheap insurance in my book as far as reliability and not that difficult to add when building a layout.
I also use and prefer Fast Tracks turnouts so I don't have much of a choice. They've worked great for me so far.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Is this more of a problem with steam because you don't have at least 1 isolated truck fully on the track? There must be a reason for this that I'm missing. I guess what I didn't realize when I asked the question is that I want to know the 'why' for 'why does Atlas deaden the frogs from the factory' and 'why is this more of an issue with short locos?' I would think it's because you don't have at least one truck hanging on a stretch of live track (so steam would, by this theory, always have this issue)
I'm just trying to understand things from both directions, the why and the why not.
I have several very small 'critters' with only two axles. That sort of motive power is subject to stalling on turnouts. In fact, I think it's safe to say that they would stall on every turnout unless the frog is powered. I also use 'keep alive' circuits in them. That radically increases the odds of them successfully navigating a turnout, even without a powered frog. It's called 'redundancy'. I understand that NASA and the military use the practice a fair bit. Nothing wrong with being reliable. After all, I believe our goal is to run trains, not push them.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
fieryturbowhy does Atlas deaden the frogs from the factory' and 'why is this more of an issue with short locos?'
The frog is a point where both rails connect (red & blue). There will be a short without isolating it from from the rails and providing some mechanism for properly powering the frog.
it's a problem with at least older steam with short wheel bases (e.g. 0-6-0) because there are only one set of wheels on the loco and tender that pickup up power on the rails.
Diesels can avoid this by using trucks that pick up power on both sides so that if power is lost on one truck (while on the frog) it can be picked up on the other.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
fieryturbo I'm doing some work on my layout, and it occurred to me that I should probably care about at least knowing why I should power the frog. Atlas turnouts are isolated, so I don't really have to deal with it per se, but under what situations does it become critical?
I have a pretty good sized layout, and I have more Atlas turnouts on it than I care to count. None of my frogs are powered, and I have no problems with stalls. But, then, I have no truly short wheelbase locos. I have several Proto 2000 S1 and S3 diesels, and those are my shortest wheelbase locos. They don't stall on unpowered frogs at slow speeds but that is because both the front and rear trucks are powered, so even as one truck is on the unpowered frog, the other truck is on powered track.
I have had two instances of locomotives stalling on unpowered frogs, but neither instance was the fault of an unpowered frog, per se. In one instance, the pickup wire on one truck broke loose so I effectively only had pickup power on one truck until I repaired the broken pickup wire. In the other instance, connectivity problems developed over time on a Walthers Shinohara double crossover. At slow speeds, even some of my longer wheelbase locos started stalling at slow speeds.
Regarding steamers, I have no stalling problems on unpowered frogs. There are plenty of power pickup wires on steamers, not only the driver wheels but also the tender wheels.
Hope this helps.
Rich
Alton Junction
At least on of your Proto 2000's only has one side of the trucks powered so the wheel base is the length of the truck. I started a thread asking if and how I should power the other side, but responses are few, so far. I've put drop wires on all my Walthers code 83 turnouts, but so far I have not needed to wire them.
I am going to get into DCC sound, so we will see if the need changes. My Bachmann 45 tonner navigated DC Atlas snap switches fine, but drops the headlight momentarily on one of my DCC Walthers turnout frogs (but not the others) Not sure why that should be.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
The "kill two birds with one stone" solution would be "Keep Alive". That way engines aren't sensitive to 1) unpowered frogs, and 2) dirty track or dirty wheels.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Power the frogs. Simple answer. There will be situations where perhaps an engine has a dirty wheelset, or you're running a short yard switcher on a main line, or an engine has traction tires that prevent pickup. If you're running illuminated passenger equipment or a caboose with active lanterns, you'll have similar problems. If nothing else, drop a wire from the frog (I always use green wires for frogs) so that the job will be easier later on.
On Phase 2 of my layout, I used a number of Walthers-Shinohara turnouts. One day, I just decided to power all the frogs, since one of them needed it for a trolley I was running. I found that a lot of other engines seemed to run better, too, after I did them all.
If you are driving the turnouts with Tortoises, it's a no-brainer. All it takes is wire.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
BigDaddy At least on of your Proto 2000's only has one side of the trucks powered so the wheel base is the length of the truck.
At least on of your Proto 2000's only has one side of the trucks powered so the wheel base is the length of the truck.
richhotrain BigDaddy At least on of your Proto 2000's only has one side of the trucks powered so the wheel base is the length of the truck. Big Daddy, what do you mean by this statement? I don't understand what you are saying about the Proto 2000 power pickups. Rich
Big Daddy, what do you mean by this statement? I don't understand what you are saying about the Proto 2000 power pickups.
It was this thread, Rich
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/258413.aspx
My one reply apparently didn't give the necessary answer. All 8 wheels of a Proto 2000 GP-7 or 9 do pick up power.
As far as frogs go, many of my mainline turnouts are #10s. The frog is somewhere around 2-3/4 inches long. That's a pretty big gap. ALL my mainline frogs are powered and I'm eventually getting around to powering the secondary and yard tracks.
On shorter wheel base locomotives and brass locomotives which normally DO only pick up from one side or the other I am retrofitting keep alive capacitors to them.
I have five Hex frog Juicers (30 frogs!) that I use where there is a concentration of frogs—junctions, yard leads, etc) otherwise I use the Tortoise auxiliary switches.
SOME of the longer Atlas turnouts were designed to easily power the frog. WHY didn't they do them all that way is a big ?
Happy Modeling, Ed
gmpullman It was this thread, Rich http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/258413.aspx My one reply apparently didn't give the necessary answer. All 8 wheels of a Proto 2000 GP-7 or 9 do pick up power.
As far as I know, Proto 2000 diesels have all-wheel pickup, and it sounds like you are confirming that.
I was not aware of any P2K locos with less than 8 wheel pickup, thgat was part of the appeal of them being better than the previous Life Like train set level locos.
Atlas number 4, 6, and 8 Custom-Line turnouts all have places to attach frog powering wires. The metal used is nearly impossible to solder to though, but a brass screw driven in to the hole (I did mine at the bench before installing, so the screw head is underneath and not visible) makes a good solder point. No drilling or tapping needed. I think the proper size is a 1-72, and I just let them cut their own threads.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
The PO OP said he had a LL GP20 It certainly could be different than my LL GP9. In cardiology, they call it concealed conduction, electrical pathways in the heart you can only imagine. Maybe that's the case here but I don't see a second wire from my trucks.
EDIT If the frame is the second (concealed) pathway, well I'm glad I brought that up before installing a DCC board, otherwise the kimchee would be deep.
rrinkerAtlas number 4, 6, and 8 Custom-Line turnouts all have places to attach frog powering wires
I agree, but the one I show in the photo — Atlas No. 566 #8 Mark IV Code 83 Custom Line® Turnout — has a nice brass terminal that IS easy to solder to. I just wondered why Atlas didn't do them all that way!
Regards, Ed
BigDaddyMaybe that's the case here but I don't see a second wire from my trucks.
Again—
The early Life-Likes used a design similar to that of the Athearn engines. The current path took a route through the TRUCK BOLSTER (as noted) then through the FRAME and on SOME life-line engines (The Alco S-1 for example) was routed directly to the motor brush so there was a possibility of cooking a decoder IF the wheel happened to touch the frame. On the Geeps, FAs, Eriebuilts, C-liners maybe others, there was a ring terminal that continued the current path from the frame and then to the motor brush.
Also why I suggested putting a drop of CRC 2-26 on that bolster contact point. Reduce friction, corrosion and improve continuity.
Therefore one side (four wheels) collect power through the frame and the other side collects from four wheels in contact with the metal tab you show in your photo.
DID you happen to notice that those metal tabs both collect from the same rail?
So how would the other rail get current to the motor...
Well, we're stealing the thread here
Back to our regular programming.
Model railroading IS fun!
Ed
Let's take my issues back to my thread
If anyone in the future has my confusion about the LL Proto 2K pickup issues, they won't be looking for answers in a Frog thread.
BigDaddy The PO said he had a LL GP20 It certainly could be different than my LL GP9. In cardiology, they call it concealed conduction, electrical pathways in the heart you can only imagine. Maybe that's the case here but I don't see a second wire from my trucks. EDIT If the frame is the second (concealed) pathway, well I'm glad I brought that up before installing a DCC board, otherwise the kimchee would be deep.
The PO said he had a LL GP20 It certainly could be different than my LL GP9. In cardiology, they call it concealed conduction, electrical pathways in the heart you can only imagine. Maybe that's the case here but I don't see a second wire from my trucks.
Yes its a hot frame. When I plugged the decoder into mine I did not pay attention to that. Should be black wire running from both trucks. Red wire is screwed into the top of the weight. Engineers side if you are short hood forward. On the Left hand side (short hood forward) is a red wire going to the lower motor connection. This is how they get away with hot frame. Both trucks provide power.
BigDaddyThe PO said he had a LL GP20
Henry,
I assume you meant mean OP??? If not, what is PO?
Typing dyslexia.
Done there, been that.
BigDaddy Let's take my issues back to my thread http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/258413.aspx If anyone in the future has my confusion about the LL Proto 2K pickup issues, they won't be looking for answers in a Frog thread.
BMMECNYC BigDaddy The PO said he had a LL GP20 It certainly could be different than my LL GP9. In cardiology, they call it concealed conduction, electrical pathways in the heart you can only imagine. Maybe that's the case here but I don't see a second wire from my trucks. EDIT If the frame is the second (concealed) pathway, well I'm glad I brought that up before installing a DCC board, otherwise the kimchee would be deep.
MisterBeasley Power the frogs. Simple answer. There will be situations where perhaps an engine has a dirty wheelset, or you're running a short yard switcher on a main line, or an engine has traction tires that prevent pickup. If you're running illuminated passenger equipment or a caboose with active lanterns, you'll have similar problems.
Power the frogs. Simple answer. There will be situations where perhaps an engine has a dirty wheelset, or you're running a short yard switcher on a main line, or an engine has traction tires that prevent pickup. If you're running illuminated passenger equipment or a caboose with active lanterns, you'll have similar problems.
Yep...I run small locos and I am pretty extreme when it comes to ballast and dirt/paint and scenery materials. Easier to do when you install the switches.
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
In HOn3 and most narrowgauge in the smaller scales, hot frogs are the standard. It's not so much an absolute need for it as it is the reliability they offer.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Exactly how important?
Exactly REALLY important. Do it.
In my experience I found that it was far, far more crucial to make sure switch points were powered. It was a LOT of pain to drop a feeder from each switch point, but I had NO stalls on turnouts.The little metal tabs and other methods used by manufacturers to power points are unreliable after time. A feeder soldered to the switch point is not.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Closing in on 200 turnouts, I have found the need to add a wire to the points only a few times. Like other methods, it does improve reliabiliy.
richhotrain f anyone in the future has my confusion about the LL Proto 2K pickup issues, they won't be looking for answers in a Frog thread. **********Except that you raised your issue in this thread.
**********Except that you raised your issue in this thread.
and I'm asking for forgiveness. My post mislead the OP
BigDaddy richhotrain f anyone in the future has my confusion about the LL Proto 2K pickup issues, they won't be looking for answers in a Frog thread. **********Except that you raised your issue in this thread. and I'm asking for forgiveness. My post mislead the OP
Maybe You should have left OP to PO..cause' the OP may be PO now....confusing?
''Thread high-jacker''.......NAW! Just kidding!
Take Care!
Frankie...