i have just installed a Digitrax AR1 RLM. The isolated reverse loop is about 6ft long. It is fed from a separate bus with 3 X 0.5mm droppers, one on each rail. The bus is 1.5mm stranded copper wire. The main track is also fed by a 1.5mm bus with 0.5mm droppers to every rail. The problem is that the loco will stop, loose sound, pause then start running again. The sound needing to be reactiveated by the cab. This happens at either the "in" end of the RL or the exit end depending on what the polarity is at that moment. I have tried adjusting the pot from min to max and everywhere inbetween. I also set up a test track with only 3 rails, an isolated rail between two track fed rails but it still does the same thing. Can anyone offer any advice please.
Does the length of the loop accommodate the entire train between the gaps after entering and before leaving?
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Do you have other circuit breakers in the system?
I'm not able to visualize the 3 rail test track.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
New member, first post, under moderation, gonna take forever to hear back from him. This is one of those times that I wish the moderator would release the OP's replies immediately.
That said, could be any one of a number of issues. We need to know more about the layout, the type of power source, boosters, other electronic components.
Rich
Alton Junction
BigDaddy Do you have other circuit breakers in the system? I'm not able to visualize the 3 rail test track.
Thank you for your comments.sirry for the lack of information. Yes the RL section is much longer than my longest train. There are no circuit breakers on the RL, Digitrax advised that I did not need them, the rest of the layout is split into 3 districts and protected by a psx-3. I have a 5amp pro cab ( radio ) control system. There are 3 track busses one for each district all of 1.5mm stranded copper house wire twisted with .5mm droppers to every track section and in the yard area, to every point (turn out) as well. To set up a test section I used 3 pieces of straight track separated with insulated rail joiners. I connected track power directly from the command station to the AR1. I connected track power to the two end rails off my bus with a feed to to the AR1 and I fed the RL section of track from the RL1. Depending on the polarity of the RL the loco will either stop on entering or exiting the loop. The loco stops looses sound pauses then slowly continues on. I have adjusted to pot from max to min and most points inbetween but it does not seem to have any effect. I don't understand how to set that. Digitrax can only offer advice for me to beef up all the cables which again l did try but still not working. If the cable size was so important you would think they would reference that in their instructions. Hope this helps, regards Porkster
PorksterCan anyone offer any advice please.
I assume you are aware of the Digitrax Tech Support Depot?
Scroll through this list and there might be something here to help you.
http://www.digitrax.com/tsd/product/AR1/
Henry and Rich both bring up good points with the circuit breaker sensitivity and needing more information about your DCC system.
regards, Ed
Porkster There are no circuit breakers on the RL, Digitrax advised that I did not need them, the rest of the layout is split into 3 districts and protected by a psx-3.
There are no circuit breakers on the RL, Digitrax advised that I did not need them, the rest of the layout is split into 3 districts and protected by a psx-3.
I used to have four AR1s on my layout, and they worked fine until I got fancy and installed four power districts, each protected by a psx circuit breaker. At that point, I began to experience the same problem as yours. The solution is to replace the AR1 with a PSX-AR and your problems should end.
Porkster To set up a test section I used 3 pieces of straight track separated with insulated rail joiners. I connected track power directly from the command station to the AR1. I connected track power to the two end rails off my bus with a feed to to the AR1 and I fed the RL section of track from the RL1. Depending on the polarity of the RL the loco will either stop on entering or exiting the loop. The loco stops looses sound pauses then slowly continues on. I have adjusted to pot from max to min and most points inbetween but it does not seem to have any effect. I don't understand how to set that.
To set up a test section I used 3 pieces of straight track separated with insulated rail joiners. I connected track power directly from the command station to the AR1. I connected track power to the two end rails off my bus with a feed to to the AR1 and I fed the RL section of track from the RL1. Depending on the polarity of the RL the loco will either stop on entering or exiting the loop. The loco stops looses sound pauses then slowly continues on. I have adjusted to pot from max to min and most points inbetween but it does not seem to have any effect. I don't understand how to set that.
I am not one of the electrical wizards here but your problem reminded my of Brendan's problem. Brendan was a newbie who started a very verbose thread. He ran into a similar problem with PSX circuit breakers and a reverser. He started two additional, simulataneous threads and I'm not sure I can find them.
This may or may not be relevant to your problem. http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/255918.aspx?page=13#2881716
Brendan was an opinionated guy and bumped heads with other opinionated guys. He left in a huff, which was too bad for him and us.
You are being moderated as a newbie, in case you have any Ruskie brides for sale. It is frustrating, but ends at around 10 posts.
gmpullman Porkster Can anyone offer any advice please. I assume you are aware of the Digitrax Tech Support Depot? Scroll through this list and there might be something here to help you. http://www.digitrax.com/tsd/product/AR1/ Henry and Rich both bring up good points with the circuit breaker sensitivity and needing more information about your DCC system. regards, Ed Yes, I have been in contact with the tech support people and carried out all of their suggestions, mainly to do with cable size etc apart from that they were unable to help, cheers Porkster
Porkster Can anyone offer any advice please.
Hi Rich, I originally had the AR1 fed off the track bus via the PSX circuit breaker and it didn't work for the reason you mention (relay verses solid state) so I checked with my hobby shop and Digitrax, both confirming that I didn't need to feed the AR1 through a circuit breaker, so I took a feed from the supply side of the PSX-3 directly to the AR1. This at least had the loco moving through the RL albeit with the stopping problem. I have arranged to secure a PSX-AR and will try it out as soon as it arrives. As I understand it, the PSX-AR has a built in circuit breaker so there is no point or need to feed it via the PSX-3. Cheers Porkster
i took the track supply off the track bus which is fed via the PSX-3. The AR1 was feed directly from the power pro side of the PSX-3 so no cct breaker. Track power was fed to the SR1 and that in turn fed the isolated RL track (rail) Hey!! In describing this to you, I think I have made a mistake! In wiring up the test track I should have had the two end tracks (the ones on either side of the simulated RL) wired opposite to each other in order the test the RLM. I don't think I did this. This is interesting because if the above is true and I am pretty sure it is then the polarity of all tracks in the test track should have been the same and the loco should not have stopped, do I have a problem with the IRJ? I am using Hornby one which are the black ones?
I cannot imagine a worse thread to refer the OP to than the one linked in the previous reply. Can't we please just start with a clean slate here and help the OP resolve his issue?
That sound fine to me Rich, thank you, Porkster
I'm sorry your feeling are still hurt.
Henry:
You have to admit that reading both of Brendan's threads from start to finish would be like reading 'War and Peace' over and over again!!
Sorry, I couldn't resist. No offense intended.
Regards,
Dave
Porkster:
Welcome to the forums!!!
Be patient with us while we help resolve your problem. These things sometimes take a bit of head scratching.
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Porkster Hi Rich, I originally had the AR1 fed off the track bus via the PSX circuit breaker and it didn't work for the reason you mention (relay verses solid state) so I checked with my hobby shop and Digitrax, both confirming that I didn't need to feed the AR1 through a circuit breaker, so I took a feed from the supply side of the PSX-3 directly to the AR1. This at least had the loco moving through the RL albeit with the stopping problem. I have arranged to secure a PSX-AR and will try it out as soon as it arrives. As I understand it, the PSX-AR has a built in circuit breaker so there is no point or need to feed it via the PSX-3. Cheers Porkster
Digiitrax was correct in saying that you didn't need to feed the AR-1 through a circuit breaker since the booster would cut power in the event of a short.
One thing to keep in mind with the PSX-AR is that it must feed directly off the bus. You should not wire it downstream from a PSX circuit breaker, per the PSX-AR diagram in the manual. If you wire the PSX-AR downstream from a PSX, a similar timing problem will occur in that the PSX will sense the short in advance of the corrective action taken by the PSX-AR.
Porkster i took the track supply off the track bus which is fed via the PSX-3. The AR1 was feed directly from the power pro side of the PSX-3 so no cct breaker. Track power was fed to the SR1 and that in turn fed the isolated RL track (rail) Hey!! In describing this to you, I think I have made a mistake! In wiring up the test track I should have had the two end tracks (the ones on either side of the simulated RL) wired opposite to each other in order the test the RLM. I don't think I did this. This is interesting because if the above is true and I am pretty sure it is then the polarity of all tracks in the test track should have been the same and the loco should not have stopped, do I have a problem with the IRJ? I am using Hornby one which are the black ones?
The Horny IRJs should be fine. If the polarities of all three test tracks match, then there should be no pause as the loco crosses the IRJ. If there is a pause in such an instance, you would need to adjust the TTC (Tunable Trip Current) on the AR-1.
Hi Rich, thank you for that info, I have ordered a PSX-AR today so should have it in a couple of days. Keen to see if it solves my problem, I like your positiveness, so heres hoping. I have also decided to beef up my bus wires, 4mm in the longest section which is 10metres, and 2.5mm in the other two sections ( districts ) . I completed wiring the second district today, it feeds the yard area where every rail and turnout have droppers. I have keep the dropper length to an absolute minimum as well. Tomorrow I will rewire that 10m long section and again reduce the dropper length to the minimum. I believe both of these actions will improve the running of the layout and hopefully the reverse sections. You may gather that I am in the process of building this layout and am livening each day's work as I go to eliminate problems at the end. Thanks for your help, Porkster
I bought an AR1 once and probably had the same problem the OP had. I decided life is too short. For $3 I used a slide switch for the turn out and a DP DT for the power.
My reversing loop is very simple.
The switches are wired so that they both indicate the direction of travel. Going right thru the "Y" , switches to the right. going left switches to the left.
Cheers
Lee
That's my preferred solution for simple loops. Don;t create a short in the first place, If you use powered switch machines, you can drive contacts off that, for a manual machine the DPDT slide switch makes a great 'switch machine'. Rather than create a short and have an autoreverser 'fix' it, just don;t create the short in the first place. For a basic loop, the switch has to be thrown for the train to proceed anyway, so there's no problem swapping the polarity right then instead of waiting for something to bridge the gap and short.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I have finally solved my RL problem. I purchased a PSX-AR which arrived this morning. I couldn't wait to install it but guess what, same problem. I checked with a voltmeter and noticed that the system lost power each time a loco traversed the IRJ. The PSX-AR is fed with track power upstream from the circuit breaker so it took me a while to realise that it was the circuit breaker tripping that was causing my problem. The penny dropped when I finally twigged that it was a discrimination issue between the PSX-AR and the circuit breaker. Many adjustments later and everything runs great. I re-installed the AR1 and it too works a treat. Thanks for all your help and comments, regards Porkster.
Porkster I have finally solved my RL problem. I purchased a PSX-AR which arrived this morning. I couldn't wait to install it but guess what, same problem. I checked with a voltmeter and noticed that the system lost power each time a loco traversed the IRJ. The PSX-AR is fed with track power upstream from the circuit breaker so it took me a while to realise that it was the circuit breaker tripping that was causing my problem. The penny dropped when I finally twigged that it was a discrimination issue between the PSX-AR and the circuit breaker. Many adjustments later and everything runs great. I re-installed the AR1 and it too works a treat. Thanks for all your help and comments, regards Porkster.
I mentioned last Tuesday that the placement of the auto-reverser to the PSX circuit breaker was critical even when using the PSX-AR. Since the PSX-AR has to perform two functions (sense the short and correct it) in the time that it takes the PSX to perform one function (sense the short), the PSX wins out every time unless the PSX-AR is wired upstream of the PSX.
Glad to hear that you resolved your problem. But, as I said, I am surprised that you got the AR-1 to work on the same booster as the PSX.
Hi Rich, to get the PSX-AR to work I had to progressively increase the value of CV49 to level 12 on the PSX circuit breaker and at the same time reduce the value of CV49 on the PDX-AR to 1. After sorting this out I thought just out of interest I would try the AR1 and it too worked. Cheers Porkster
Porkster Hi Rich, to get the PSX-AR to work I had to progressively increase the value of CV49 to level 12 on the PSX circuit breaker and at the same time reduce the value of CV49 on the PDX-AR to 1. After sorting this out I thought just out of interest I would try the AR1 and it too worked. Cheers Porkster
Setting CV49=1 on the PSX-AR trips the current at 1.27 amps, low enough to give the PSX-AR a chance to flip the polarities in advance of the PSX circuit breaker.
Setting CV49=12 on the PSX trips the current at 15.2 amps. But, since 15.2 amps is way higher than the 5 amp booster on your PH-Pro system, the booster will trip and shut down the entire layout, not just the power district that the PSX is meant to protect. Try the quarter test to see this happen.
That's the reason that the AR-1 worked as well even though it shouldn't in the presence of the PSX circuit breakers.
The proper solution is to wire the PSX-AR upstream of the PSX-3 units and set CV49 to a value of 3 or 4 on all four PSX boards.
Downstream I get. Upstream is confusing me because the PSX-AR is powering the reversing loop. If the PSX-AR and the PSX3 are powered by separate bus wires, those bus wires ultimately come from the command station.
Is the entrance track PSX-3 protected or is it that the short is seen though the entire bus?
BigDaddy Downstream I get. Upstream is confusing me because the PSX-AR is powering the reversing loop. If the PSX-AR and the PSX3 are powered by separate bus wires, those bus wires ultimately come from the command station. Is the entrance track PSX-3 protected or is it that the short is seen though the entire bus?
The PSX-3 is really nothing more than three separate and independent PSX circuit breakers. Whenever a short is sensed within a power district, the pertinent PSX will shut down that particular power district.
In Porkster's case, with the PSX units set at a higher amperage than the 5 amp booster, the PSX-AR will reverse polarities when it senses a short, so no other action takes place. If, for some reason, the PSX-AR cannot resolve the short, the booster, not the PSX units, will shut the entire layout down.
Now it may be that Porkster only adjusted the trip current on one of the PSX circuit breakers. If that PSX is the first one to detect the short, it may well give the PSX-AR the necessary time to sense the short and flip the polarities before one of the other two PSX units has time to react to the short.
It would be interesting to see Porkster's wiring diagram or at least a photo.
The thing is, with the PSX line, there's no reason to have a PSX-AR in line, upstream OR downstream of a PSX-x. The PSX-AR is both an auto-reverser and a circuit breaker, so if flipping the polarity fails to cure the short condition, it cuts all power. The PSX-AR should be fed directly from the booster, just like any PSX-x's.
The AR-1 is ONLY an auto-reverser, so if the problem is a short and not just a polarity mismatch, it will just flip back and forth and never cut power to the track. For short protection as well as reversing, thge AR-1 has to be downstream of a circuit breaker. It works with the PM-42 because all of the Digitrax devices had a trip speed setting - with an AR-1 downstream, the PM-42 has to be set at the 'fast' setting, not 'fastest' or the same thing that happens with the PSX will happen - the PM42 will trip before the AR-1 can reverse the phase.
Hi Rich, thank you for your help. Please let me clarify my control set up. I purchased my PH pro system from DCC Concepts who recommended a "cobalt PSU2+ 18v 5A" power supply. i think this unit is only protected by a glass type fuse cartridge judging by the fuse holder on the front of the unit. So I don't have a " booster" as such, and my power supply will only trip if the fuse blows.(Which has not happened - yet!) With respect to the wiring, I have taken a 2.5mm + and -ve supply from the Power Pro track output to a terminal strip under my layout. I then loop off with separate supplies to the PSX-3 unit and the PSX- AR. The PSX-AR is not feed through the circuit breaker. I have assumed and maybe incorrectly that because the two other districts feed from the two other circuit breakers in my PSX-3 are insulated via IRJ they have no bearing on the district with the RL. I have therefore NOT altered CV49 on the other two breakers, they will still be on their default setting of 0 which is the same as 3. Have I gone wrong here? Do I need to change CV49 on the other circuit breakers setting all 3 CV49's to 3 or 4? Cheers Porkster