In the end, I waffled on both and ended up settling that I'd buy a PR3. Reasoning that I had two weeks before I could do go buy one (opening weekend of college football meant no hobby shop drive on Saturday and out of state wedding next weekend), I figured maybe I'd poke at that DCC++ again.
Second motor shield made the difference, as did a much more robust testing process, and I ended up getting it to work. Turns out I ended up with my original plan anyhow!
fieryturbo fieryturbo The PR3 is pretty easy to use, and has the added bonus of being able to program the absolute cheapest widest variety of the sound decoders on the market. As a long-time PR3 user, I thought I should fix that for you. There's a cheaper programmable sound decoder than the SDH166D?
fieryturbo The PR3 is pretty easy to use, and has the added bonus of being able to program the absolute cheapest widest variety of the sound decoders on the market. As a long-time PR3 user, I thought I should fix that for you.
fieryturbo The PR3 is pretty easy to use, and has the added bonus of being able to program the absolute cheapest widest variety of the sound decoders on the market.
The PR3 is pretty easy to use, and has the added bonus of being able to program the absolute cheapest widest variety of the sound decoders on the market.
As a long-time PR3 user, I thought I should fix that for you.
There's a cheaper programmable sound decoder than the SDH166D?
Probably.
But the point I was trying to make is that the PR3 is not limited to programming only the "absolute cheapest" sound decoders.
Stevert fieryturbo AFAICT, you can use the PR3 as a Loconet extension of JMRI to attach Digitrax throttles without a Digitrax command station as well. Wow, there's STILL lots of conjecture and mis-information about the PR3 in this thread! I'm not sure what you mean by "use the PR3 as a Loconet extension of JMRI to attach Digitrax throttles without a Digitrax command station as well." What are you "attaching" them to? If you mean to drive the layout, the answer is no, you can't use the PR3 in that manner. The PR3 would need to be a command station (and booster) to drive the layout, and it simply isn't. As I have said before in this thread, the PR3 has two modes of operation: One mode is it's stand-alone programming mode, and the other is a LocoNet pass-through mode to connect your computer to the LocoNet. So you can either use it to program decoders (or other DCC devices that use programming commands, such as the DS64, etc), or you can use it to allow your computer to "talk" to the LocoNet. You can only use one of those modes at a time, but you can quickly and easily switch between the two modes. But in neither of them does the PR3 function as a command station or booster. fieryturbo The PR3 is pretty easy to use, and has the added bonus of being able to program the absolute cheapest widest variety of the sound decoders on the market. As a long-time PR3 user, I thought I should fix that for you.
fieryturbo AFAICT, you can use the PR3 as a Loconet extension of JMRI to attach Digitrax throttles without a Digitrax command station as well.
AFAICT, you can use the PR3 as a Loconet extension of JMRI to attach Digitrax throttles without a Digitrax command station as well.
Wow, there's STILL lots of conjecture and mis-information about the PR3 in this thread!
I'm not sure what you mean by "use the PR3 as a Loconet extension of JMRI to attach Digitrax throttles without a Digitrax command station as well."
What are you "attaching" them to? If you mean to drive the layout, the answer is no, you can't use the PR3 in that manner. The PR3 would need to be a command station (and booster) to drive the layout, and it simply isn't.
As I have said before in this thread, the PR3 has two modes of operation: One mode is it's stand-alone programming mode, and the other is a LocoNet pass-through mode to connect your computer to the LocoNet.
So you can either use it to program decoders (or other DCC devices that use programming commands, such as the DS64, etc), or you can use it to allow your computer to "talk" to the LocoNet.
You can only use one of those modes at a time, but you can quickly and easily switch between the two modes. But in neither of them does the PR3 function as a command station or booster.
Julian
Modeling Pre-WP merger UP (1974-81)
fieryturboAFAICT, you can use the PR3 as a Loconet extension of JMRI to attach Digitrax throttles without a Digitrax command station as well.
Not the way I believe you're thinking. You can use the PR3 as a Loconet interface without a separate command station, because Loconet is peer-to-peer. For example, you could use the Sprog to run the layout and Loconet with a PR3 for turnouts and signaling; however, you would not be able to run trains with a Digitrax throttle because you would not have a command station to maintain the slots.
I sense there's still a little confusion re the PR3, so let me add something....
Think of it this way: You have a computer, and want to connect to the internet. To do that, you connect your computer to a modem, and then the modem is connected to the internet connection (highspeed thru a cable system, old style dial-up, etc.). The modem is the bridge or connection that allows your computer to access the internet.
The PR3 is like a modem, it basically connects your computer to something else. It comes with a disk with software you download that allows you to connect your computer (thru the PR3) to a programming track, so you can read and program CVs for regular or sound decoders (not just Digitrax decoders).
It also allows you to go to the Digitrax website, download sound files, and load them into Digitrax sound decoders designed to receive and use those files. Only these Digitrax sound decoders are designed to be changed like this, so the PR3 is only set up to change sound files for their own Digitrax sound decoders.
You can also download JMRI software like Decoder Pro, and use that to program decoders through the PR3. Remember, the PR3 just connects your computer to the track. For several years, I've used Decoder Pro and the Digitrax soundloader programs thorough a PR3 connected to a programming track.
I haven't tried this yet, but I understand you can also use the PR3 up connect your computer to a DCC system, and use JMRI software to run your layout, control signals, etc. from your computer. The PR3 doesn't run the layout, there's no throttle or direction switch on it, the software controls all that. The PR3 just makes it so the the computer and the DCC system are connected and work together.
I have a PR3 as a bench programmer, a SPROG as a command station and don't have physical throttles.
The PR3 is pretty easy to use, and has the added bonus of being able to program the absolute cheapest of the sound decoders on the market.
For the price of DCC++ though, I think it'd be worth your time to learn it. Once you learn to do things with Arduino, you can save yourself lots and lots of money on standalone DCC devices across the layout.
Yes! The Power Cab handheld throttle will do it all!
woodone The OP was asking for a simple system or device to program his loco's Can't beat a NCE Power Cab. Who would want to just program and not be able to test run you locomotive after you had programmed it? Sytems are like cars or other things- you will get an sales pitch on a system which is the users preferance. go with what you are comfterable with!
The OP was asking for a simple system or device to program his loco's
Can't beat a NCE Power Cab.
Who would want to just program and not be able to test run you locomotive after you had programmed it?
Sytems are like cars or other things- you will get an sales pitch on a system which is the users preferance.
go with what you are comfterable with!
Since I don't know what I'm doing with DCC. When I get around to hardwiring some of my older locos, is the Power Cab the best bet for testing to make sure the controller works properly and the loco runs?
It sounds it.
I think I'm going to go with one of these SPROG things. The PR3 has the bonus of being cheaper and I can just go round one up at the store in person, but I think the feature set with SPROG is superior. Its really too bad I couldn't get the DCC++ working because that's a pretty nifty concept (I've determined I got a bad component and I'd rather not gamble on getting a replacement).
I wish I'd asked about this in the first place before I'd put money into the DIY system! I could have directed those funds elsewhere!
rrinkerThe thing you don;t get with a PowerCab is CV READ capability.
Incorrect, you can read CV's with a Power Cab.
Yes, seems to be a lot of confusion on the PR3, I have no idea why. Just because it is made by Digitrax, it is no more complex than any similar device, nor is it Digitrax proprietary in any way - Digitrax freely gave up the information needed to allow free JMRI to fully control it as an alternative to their SOundloader software. Soundloader will program the regualr CVs on ANY brand decoder, but will only install sound files in Digitrax decoders. ALL (3?) sound decoders that allow users to put their own sounds in use proprietary methods, QSI's is not compatible with Loksounds is not compatible with Digitrax's. FOR THE SOUND FILE PART ONLY. They all follow the standards for regular CV programming and can be programmed by anything.
The thing you don;t get with a PowerCab is CV READ capability. There's no way to retrieve current settings. That's in part why more than one person with a PowerCab has a PR3. The PR3 (and SPROG) allow both reading and writing of CVs. The use of JMRI instead of a handheld throttle or system of some sort also allows saving this information in a database . JMRI programming uses check boxes, radio buttons, and drop down lists with plain English explanations of the settings. For pretty much every decoder ever made.
A laptop, PR3, and s 2-3 foot long piece of track makes a great portable programming station - that's how i tend to use mine, taking it along to train shows to help people with their decoder setups. I actually don;t use it much at home, because I use all the same decoders in my locos and ones without sound get little more than an address change - my prototype and era does not require any sort of flashing ditch lights or anything that might involve more complex programming, so it's much faster to just use a throttle and assign an address and go. But at the club - I've had people want to adjust the volume on their sound loco and have no idea what kind of decoder is in it. Justput iton the PR3 track and JMRI uses the manfuacturer ID and version CVs to at least get in the ballpark (there are, for example, dozens of Tsunami variations, between the different board form factors and the different sounds, however, they all have the same CVs to program, so while JMRI can't tell me if the loco has an Alco sound or an EMD sound or a GE sound, it really doesn't matter)
I am leaning towards replacing the PR3 with SPROG, if only because the SPROG can do a proper Direct mode read and write, making it significantly faster, which is important mainly on the latest crop of sound decoders which have hundreds of CVs because they are extrremely flexible in function, sound, and physical wire mappings. If you aren't adjusting any of that, you can also just tell JMRI to update the current page where you are making changes rather than try to read and write the entire decoder which gets around the issue quite nicely.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
mlehman jalajoie The PR3 ins standalone mode will program all decoders sound or silent on the marketplace. All you need is a 16 to 18v power supply. Jack, Since JMRI was involved, I figured that was covered. I was thinking more in terms of the sorts of every bell and whistle proprietary Brand Name That Only the Indoctrinated Can Make Sense Of Menus with way too many options that confuse me when I want simple to just run trains.
jalajoie The PR3 ins standalone mode will program all decoders sound or silent on the marketplace. All you need is a 16 to 18v power supply.
Jack,
Since JMRI was involved, I figured that was covered. I was thinking more in terms of the sorts of every bell and whistle proprietary Brand Name That Only the Indoctrinated Can Make Sense Of Menus with way too many options that confuse me when I want simple to just run trains.
There ARE no Digitrax-specific PR3 menus to confuse you - As has been mentioned repeatedly in this thread, and as you just noted yourself, external software such as JMRI must be used with the PR3. IMHO, this is just a shot at a DCC vendor you apparently don't care for.
mlehman I missed what Randy said earlier and just realized all this talk about the PR3 was not something that actually ran trains. And I always presumed in an age when people are focused on sound, they might just want to run trains on a test track. Go figure. I know I do when I'm using mine, checking what the results of different settings are, but also many other settings where you may not know exactly where you'll end up until the loco performs in response. I rarely just punch in a CV and when I do that's easy enough to do with the PowerPro controller on the main, not on the programming/test track.
I missed what Randy said earlier and just realized all this talk about the PR3 was not something that actually ran trains. And I always presumed in an age when people are focused on sound, they might just want to run trains on a test track. Go figure. I know I do when I'm using mine, checking what the results of different settings are, but also many other settings where you may not know exactly where you'll end up until the loco performs in response. I rarely just punch in a CV and when I do that's easy enough to do with the PowerPro controller on the main, not on the programming/test track.
You're confusing a programming track with a test track. Most DCC systems do NOT combine that functionality. They do service mode programing on the programming track and (test) run on the main. Your PowerCab is one of the very few DCC systems that use the same outputs for both, and NCE even sells an accessory (AutoSwitch) to make it behave more like the other DCC systems with separate outputs for the two functions.
mlehman I can see now how a program only track would literally be program only, nothing else.
I can see now how a program only track would literally be program only, nothing else.
Well, yeah, that's why they call it a programming track!
mlehman But too barebones for me and seems better suited to burning a bunch of decoders with the same CVs than what I use a programming track for. YMMV I suppose.
But too barebones for me and seems better suited to burning a bunch of decoders with the same CVs than what I use a programming track for. YMMV I suppose.
Many folks do the basic set up of their locos on the programming track, and tweak as necessary using Ops Mode programming on the main (Good luck speed matching locos on a three-foot-long programming track!) See above about how most DCC systems separate those abilities.
mlehman So it boggles me that yet a third box of some kind would be required to run trains with the PR3 and that's simple. But I guess that accounts for why it's so much cheaper.
So it boggles me that yet a third box of some kind would be required to run trains with the PR3 and that's simple. But I guess that accounts for why it's so much cheaper.
Can you run trains with the NEC-USB? It also requires a "third box" to function. But that's because it's function isn't to run trains!
The PR3 is actually a very handy device, and economical since it provides two separate and distinct functions:
First, it's a very capable stand-alone programmer that can handle even the sometimes tough to program sound decoders without the use of a programming booster. It also can download sound schemes to Digitrax sound decoders, if you happen to have any.
And it's a fully buffered computer to LocoNet interface device (similar in concept to the NCE-USB, except without any of the NCE-USB's limitations), that as noted earlier in this thread can also be used to update firmware in the newer Digitrax devices that support that function.
As I said, lots of conjecture and mis-information about the PR3 in this thread.
jalajoieThe PR3 ins standalone mode will program all decoders sound or silent on the marketplace. All you need is a 16 to 18v power supply.
I can see now how a program only track would literally be program only, nothing else. But too barebones for me and seems better suited to burning a bunch of decoders with the same CVs than what I use a programming track for. YMMV I suppose.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I use a Sprogg II at my test bench on about 20 feet of test track where I also can switch to DC if necessary using an MRC Tech4 with meters.
I've been a JMRI user for years and am very comfortable with it. I save my roster to a network drive so I can access the roster on both the layout or test bench.
The Sprogg performs all the DCC programming and sometimes when I have a decoder that seems to not want to cooperate, the Sprogg will come through.
I have not personally tried it but I believe you can use WiFi throttles with the Sprogg/JMRI setup.
http://smallmr.com/wordpress/low-costlow-effort-dcc-for-the-small-layout/
Scroll down a bit at this blog and you will see the screenshots of the JMRI throttle and Sprogg setups.
I use an old Android Kindle Fire that my sister gave me on my main layout and I'm amazed at how fun and easy it is to run trains using it. I used a free app, Enginedriver, that I downloaded from Amazon. iPhone people have their own throttle app but I have no knowledge of anything Apple
http://jmri.sourceforge.net/help/en/package/jmri/jmrit/withrottle/UserInterface.shtml
My main layout is Digitrax and I recently replaced the RRCirkits Locobuffer USB with a PR3 for the only reason that I needed to upgrade the firmware in three Digitrax DT402D throttles and three UP92 duplex transcievers. Maybe I could have used the Locobuffer for this but decided to get the PR-3 to be sure. The PR-3 was easy to set up and makes a great interface to Loconet. Locobuffer works fine, too.
The firmware upgrade went just fine. Digitrax has very good instructions in their support pages.
Using the stock JMRI throttle is fine but look into the WiFi interface that's already part of JMRI. I'm pretty sure you can use a Sprogg with a WiFi device if your computer that the Sprogg is plugged into is on the same home network.
Regards, Ed
mlehman Did not realize the PR3 was so oriented towards Digitrax proprieatry functionality. Depending on how Digitrax-exclusive one's programming needs are, that might be just the thing. On the other hand, if one deals with a variety of decoders, the PowerCab would be back in the game if I was considering my own choices, given the variety of decoders in my fleet and not a single Digitrax among them. It's worked well for my needs. The SPROGs sound interesting, too, but have had no need given equipment already on hand here.
Did not realize the PR3 was so oriented towards Digitrax proprieatry functionality. Depending on how Digitrax-exclusive one's programming needs are, that might be just the thing.
On the other hand, if one deals with a variety of decoders, the PowerCab would be back in the game if I was considering my own choices, given the variety of decoders in my fleet and not a single Digitrax among them. It's worked well for my needs. The SPROGs sound interesting, too, but have had no need given equipment already on hand here.
Mike,
The PR3 ins standalone mode will program all decoders sound or silent on the marketplace. All you need is a 16 to 18v power supply.
Jack W.
Well said - The PR3 has two function:
I looked at a Sprog device for the workshop, but bought a Digitrax Zephyr for about the same money. I figured having a backup DCC system unit was worth a few extra bucks.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Lots of conjecture and mis-information about the PR3 in this thread. As a long-time PR3 user, I'll do my best to clear some of it up.
For purposes of this discussion[1], the PR3 is a stand-alone programmer. That's all it can do, is program CV's on literally any DCC decoder (and download sound schemes to Digitrax sound decoders). It's not a throttle, it's not a command station, it's not a booster, it's a stand-alone programmer. You can't run trains with it[2]. It does need a computer and appropriate software[3] to function.
The SPROG II is a complete DCC system, EXCEPT there is no physical throttle for it. So you MUST use a computer and JMRI or other software to get the SPROG II to do anything. The SPROG 3 is basically the same but it's booster is higher capacity (more amps) than the SPROG II, which is why I recommended the SPROG II and not the SPROG 3 in my initial post. In the OP's circumstances, the extra power probably isn't needed, and would unecessarily increase his cost.
[1]The PR3 also has a LocoNet pass-through mode, similar to a LocoBuffer. But that is a completely different function that does not come into play when the PR3 is being used as a stand-alone programmer.
[2] You can "sort of" do this with Digitrax sound decoders, because the PR3 has internal logic that sets a CV to put the decoder into "neutral" so you can run up the sounds without the loco moving. But that CV doesn't work in the same manner on non-Digitrax decoders, and the PR3 doesn't put out enough current to actually run a motor. So the over-simplified answer is "No, you can't run locos with the PR3."
[3] Digitrax provides a number of utilities, for various purposes, that work with the PR3. For decoder programming, you would use Soundloader. It's geared towards (surprise!) Digitrax sound decoders, but you can use it to program the basic CV's on any brand of decoder. As it's name implies, you can also use it to download sound schemes to Digitrax sound decoders. However, it's very basic. I've used it a few times for downloading sound schemes, but not really for anything else. OTOH, JMRI is far, far better for programming decoders, and does a lot of other stuff as well. I've been using JMRI for (IIRC) 13+ years, and employ DecoderPro, PanelPro, and OperationsPro on my layout.
NittanyLionIs there any inherent trade-off with this SoundLoader software they use?
I think that the soundloader will only work with Digitrax decoders for loading sound files. So if you consider this a drawback.........
And if you want to consist, either of the NCE or Digitrax basic systems will allow you to do that a lot faster than having to start your computer, start the JMRI program, and then figure out how to consist, especially when you are not doing it everyday.
To be really simple, most of the functionality to run and program your locos lie in the throttles available in JMRI, plus its DecoderPro function. Never used the PR3, but I'd describe it as the power unit for JMRI, providing power while translating the DCC signal from JMRI to the track. The SPROG is a similar thing. I'm sure someone more familiar with Digitrac will be able to add more detail.
It sounds to me like that and your computer will take care of what you need.
We use Digitrax, so all I really need there (so far) has been a throttle. Its going to be years, if ever, before I have the space for a home layout, so I've been a little reluctant to dive all the way in if I don't need to. That's why DCC++ appealed to me, plus I've wanted to tinker with those Arudino things anyhow. But, at the same time, I had no idea this PR3 or SPROG existed. Ultimately, that's the level of device that I need. Probably would have skipped the small amount I laid out on my abandoned project if I'd known such things were around. I'd just assumed you needed a full command station and everything.
Putting the laptop on the workbench isn't a big deal. I do like that SPROG lets me actually move the locomotive to test it. On the other hand, I can get a PR3 for almost third less (and obtain one locally). Is there any inherent trade-off with this SoundLoader software they use? The sheer robustness of JMRI is neat, but at the same time...if this Soundloader can let me do the simple things like make not all my locomotives have the same address...well that's great. Does the PR3 direction limit me in any functionality, like, say, consisting? Although, if I'm reading you guys right, JMRI can talk through the PR3? Is it really coming down to the main difference being, as the SPROG site says, "also includes the ability to test your locos, or run your layout, with on-screen computer control, and full DCC operation?"
I'm completely new to DCC. I'd never even owned a DCC locomotive until three months ago and borrowed a throttle (Digitrax UT4R) for a show from a helpful veteran. Making my ditch lights cycle made me feel like a little kid, but that's a different discussion.
Yes Mike your view is worth looking into. Altough I own a Power Cab, my own set up is a PR3 and 3 feet of track that I install near my computer. I think you can't beat JMRI when it comes to programming sound decoders. If I had to start over I would go for the Sprog III.
Yeah, the PowerCab is about double or a little more than a PR3. But the OP was asking about simple, too. Given the computer interface, that's not necessarily simple. Also why I asked about the club's DCC. If Digitrax, then the PR3 may fit into the OP's experience, either positively (because it's familiar) or negatively (because some folks never get comfortable with Digitrax and that may be why he asking about simple), which may suggest going one way of the other.
Some folks may also not have room for a compter to support the PR3 at the workbench. There are ways around that, but the system required to operate the PR3 will likely not be as compact and portable as the all-in-one PowerCab.
Finally, if the OP does have access to layouts that run NCE, the PowerCab can be used as a throttle with them. You can even get it with wireless installed, making it even more versatile.
While I agree the Power Cab is a good choice, it is much more expensive than a PR3 or a Sprog. I think the later are more in line with the OP wants/needs.
I'll put in another good word for the PowerCab. Compact, uncomplicated, and can do most things you can possibly ask of it. There's really no totally simple stand-alone DCC unit if you want to include programming.
Others have spoken up for the Digitrax equivalent. What does your club use? On the other hand, if you want simple, it's hard to beat the PowerCab.
Might not be the cheapest but It will program just about anything out there as far as decoders go. Want to use JMRI- you will need and USB adaptor to hook up to your coumpter. NCE Power Cab- Simple and easy to use! Hook up two wires and plug in a power supply and you are off and running!