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Walthers Shinohara Double Crossover - Juicing the Frogs

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  • Member since
    August 2013
  • From: Richmond, VA
  • 1,890 posts
Posted by carl425 on Monday, February 8, 2016 10:33 AM

A quick google produced this:

at: http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/support/frogjuicerinfo.html

 

I have the right to remain silent.  By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Bakersfield, CA 93308
  • 6,526 posts
Posted by RR_Mel on Monday, February 8, 2016 9:43 AM

Hi Rich
 
I designed my layout around a Walthers code 83 double crossover.  The two things I wanted the most on my layout was a double crossover and a working turntable.
 
The Walthers Shinohara Double Crossover was the first track laid on my current layout.  I tried everything to get it to work and after many frustrating hours of tedious fixing there wasn’t anything left of the double crossover but pieces.  I had so much trouble with derailments and electrical problems I ended up using two Atlas turnouts for a single crossover for many years. 
 
 Over the years I tried four other double crossovers three of the four ending up in the trashcan.  The fourth was a Fast Track and you described exactly the problem I had with it.  At that point I gave up and sold the Fast Track Double Crossover on eBay.
 
Still wanting a working double crossover I built my own from Atlas code 83 Custom Line turnouts and a Atlas 19° crossover and I have never looked back.  I’ve never had a derailment or an electrical problem with my homebrew.  No Juicer needed.
 
 
 
This is my “Mel homebrew” double crossover before installation.
 
  
This picture is after a year of service, I waited for months before I started the scenery to make sure it was a long term fix.  I’m still working on the scenery in this area, the picture was taken two years ago and I’m still not finished with the scenery.
 
Mel
 
Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Bedford, MA, USA
  • 21,483 posts
Posted by MisterBeasley on Monday, February 8, 2016 9:39 AM

I'd use 2 juicers, as suggested, and power the two upper frogs with one and the two lower frogs with the other.

The Hex Frog Juicer manual indicates that you can use the same output to drive two frogs if they will always have the same polarity as each other.

Great diagram, by the way. Yes

It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse. 

  • Member since
    February 2002
  • From: Reading, PA
  • 30,002 posts
Posted by rrinker on Monday, February 8, 2016 9:15 AM

 In the old style ones, those rails are powered from the frog, electrically connected to them Dunno about the DCC friendly version - I'd have to assume they have power through simialr to Atlas turnouts, otherwise a lot more locos would stall, that's a lot of rail to not be powered if the frog is dead plus the rails in the middle. Only the longest locos could pass through such a contraption.

 If the center rails are powered from the frogs, using the frog juicer would power those rails as well and no problem. If those reails already hav power matchign the proper stock/closure rail, then there is no problem, there is no need for them to change polarity. Those middle rails are clearly insulated at the frog and where they touch each other, so either they are completely dead (unlikely) or have jumpers under the frog to feed them.

                          --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

  • Member since
    August 2013
  • From: Richmond, VA
  • 1,890 posts
Posted by carl425 on Monday, February 8, 2016 8:42 AM

Excuse me for butting in without any real experience with the frog juicer, but for some reason, I find the "puzzzle value" of questions like this irresistable.

Don't you also need to juice the X's in the crossover?  (is that a frog?)

I would think you need 4 juice points.  One each for the top and bottom pair of turnout frogs, and one for each of the X-frogs in the crossover.

I have the right to remain silent.  By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,281 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Monday, February 8, 2016 7:18 AM

rrinker

Check on the Tam Valley Yahoo group or ask directly at Tam Valley if they support running 2 frogs with 1 juicer output, Duncan is pretty responsive.

All good points, Randy. First, the polarities on the upper and lower tracks match, so no problem there. Second, as you say, there are no conflicts on the crossover because conflicts would not be possible without a collision.

Rich

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: North Dakota
  • 9,592 posts
Posted by BroadwayLion on Monday, February 8, 2016 7:08 AM

LION does not juice the frogs. Frogs must fend for themselves. LION uses relays to apply power according to the logic of the alignment. On layout of him, no other power is present anywhere else on the switch.

On Route of the BroadwayLION, we do not even bother to power the entire crossover. with 48 wheel pickup it was deemed quite unnecessary.

ROAR

The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.

Here there be cats.                                LIONS with CAMERAS

  • Member since
    February 2002
  • From: Reading, PA
  • 30,002 posts
Posted by rrinker on Monday, February 8, 2016 6:45 AM

 Use 4 outputs of one quad Frog Juicer. Then there is nothing to calculate or figure out. Theoretically, the top 2 should both be the same polarity, the bottom two should both the the same polarity, any other route lined through the crossover would be a conflict and you'd only need a dual frog juicer. Check on the Tam Valley Yahoo group or ask directly at Tam Valley if they support running 2 frogs with 1 juicer output, Duncan is pretty responsive.

                           --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,281 posts
Walthers Shinohara Double Crossover - Juicing the Frogs
Posted by richhotrain on Monday, February 8, 2016 5:52 AM

At one time, I had three double crossovers on my layout. But, I had so much trouble with derailments and dead spots that I finally removed two of them, keeping only one that I considered essential. My latest issue over the weekend was a dead closure rail, so I had to solder a jumper wire to restore power. So, it is only a matter of time now until I remove the last remaining double crossover and replace it with a pair of crossovers.

The double crossover is a marvel or engineering, but I consider the Walthers Shinohara DCC Friendly Double Crossover a little too fragile for my taste. Now, I am sure that some will report that the double crossover on their layout has been there 20 years without a problem, to which I say, good for you. This particular double crossover has been on my layout for nearly 10 years, but it has been a maintenance nightmare.

Now, on to my current issue. I recently purchased a Bowser V-1000 switcher, and I noticed that at slow speeds, the loco stalls on the straight through routes. So, I started testing each and every rail segment for power. The following photo shows the power to each rail segment, blue to the upper rail and red to the lower rail. The uncolored (white) segments show the guard rails, crossing diamond, and frog rails. It just so happens that the front and rear trucks of the V-1000 loco fit perfectly over the "turnout frogs". So, at slow speeds, the loco stalls for lack of power.

I believe that the solution is to power the frogs which are currently isolated dead metal frogs, perhaps using Tam Valley Depot Frog Juicers. The following photo shows the area in green that would require power to eliminate the stalls.

My question is, how many juicers would I need?  Would two do it, one juicer on one of the upper frogs and one juicer on one of the lower frogs?

I look forward to your comments.

Rich

 

Alton Junction

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