There is some talk about operating a DCC layout using cell phones and the like as throttles. While I have experimented with this a little bit and am imressed with the convenience of it, I wonder how such a system compares with the use of the manfacturers equipment. Has anyone had the experience of such a comparison? Perhaps there is a published study I could read? Thank you. Old Fat Robert
The JMRI implementation of WiThrottle (uses Mac devices) is what I use. It basically overlays the existing wireless system on my NCE Power Pro. The WiThrottle uses the home WiFi system for its signal, while NCE has their own wireless node that supports the throttles. Once you get JMRI going, they're seamless and don't interfere with each other.
You get many more options with WiThrottle, as it can display all sorts of stuff with the Webserver that is part of the package, as well as control the turnouts that the NCE does via remote through their throttles.
The biggest difference between the two systems is price. A wireless DCC setup costs roughly $100 more than a wired system. The throttles are also more expensive, roughly $150 each. For the WiThrottle, the JMRI software is free and the full app is $10 at the App Store and covers the throttles app and the interface with the DCC system. You've already paid for your phone or, if you're lucky like, me, get them as hand-me-downs from family, so cost is essentially zero, way cheaper than a DCC wirelss throttle no matter how you cut it.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Why is it more convenient? Intuitively to me, it would be less convenient. It seems easier to me to just have the throttle kept with the layout, and put back into its holster when I leave the room.
What happens to the screen when I get or want to make a phone call when the train needs to slow down?
- Douglas
mlehmanYou've already paid for your phone or, if you're lucky like, me, get them as hand-me-downs from family, so cost is essentially zero, way cheaper than a DCC wirelss throttle no matter how you cut it.
Ummmm, no. I still use one of those flip phone things that is used only for emergencies. So would not be "free" for me.
jrbernierI use JMRI Wireless throttles with a Digitrax system. In my case I am using the 'Engine Driver' App on my Samsung GS5 cell phone(free download). As a question, what does the full $10 App get one?
For whatever reason, the developer of the iPhone version, whcih is WiThrottle (the Android app is Engine Drive) decided to not make the app available for free. The free trial one can run a train but is otherwise feature limited, the full version does everything the Android version (a different programmer wrote the Android one) does.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Doughless Why is it more convenient? Intuitively to me, it would be less convenient. It seems easier to me to just have the throttle kept with the layout, and put back into its holster when I leave the room. What happens to the screen when I get or want to make a phone call when the train needs to slow down?
You can get $10 (or less) Android phones from one of the pay as you go phone carriers, and they do not have any requirements that you must get a phone plane (and you don't need one for this purpose). So you don't even have to use the phone you use for calls, and it's still cheaper than the specific manufacturer's radio throttle. And there's always old devices - I'm not one of those nuts who upgrades every time a new model phone comes out, I go at least 2 and usually 3 updates before getting a new device, and I still have the old ones. They can no longer make phone calls, they are not active on the carrie rnetwork, but they still connect to WiFi and the app runs just fine.
rrinker Doughless Why is it more convenient? Intuitively to me, it would be less convenient. It seems easier to me to just have the throttle kept with the layout, and put back into its holster when I leave the room. What happens to the screen when I get or want to make a phone call when the train needs to slow down? You can get $10 (or less) Android phones from one of the pay as you go phone carriers, and they do not have any requirements that you must get a phone plane (and you don't need one for this purpose). So you don't even have to use the phone you use for calls, and it's still cheaper than the specific manufacturer's radio throttle. And there's always old devices - I'm not one of those nuts who upgrades every time a new model phone comes out, I go at least 2 and usually 3 updates before getting a new device, and I still have the old ones. They can no longer make phone calls, they are not active on the carrie rnetwork, but they still connect to WiFi and the app runs just fine. --Randy
maxman mlehman You've already paid for your phone or, if you're lucky like, me, get them as hand-me-downs from family, so cost is essentially zero, way cheaper than a DCC wirelss throttle no matter how you cut it. Ummmm, no. I still use one of those flip phone things that is used only for emergencies. So would not be "free" for me.
mlehman You've already paid for your phone or, if you're lucky like, me, get them as hand-me-downs from family, so cost is essentially zero, way cheaper than a DCC wirelss throttle no matter how you cut it.
$40 isn't a bad investment for a 8" screen. And it's certainly cheaper then a throttle. Even Lentz has gone completely this route instead of trying to invent a propriety handheld controller.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
This all sounds good except for the cost of a computer for the train room to run the JMRI software.
Ken G Price My N-Scale Layout
Digitrax Super Empire Builder Radio System. South Valley Texas Railroad. SVTRR
N-Scale out west. 1996-1998 or so! UP, SP, Missouri Pacific, C&NW.
Lake This all sounds good except for the cost of a computer for the train room to run the JMRI software.
Lots of ways to get around that because it doesn't have to be the biggest, baddest compter around.
I've seen off-lease PC's for well under $100 during the Black Friday/Cyber Monday season. Look in your local paper for private party ads and yard sales. Put the word out on your network of friends and relatives that the next time someone upgrades, you'd be happy to take their old machine off their hands. And so on...
Also, if you are a DIY'er, JMRI will run on a Raspberry Pi.
And some of the big online sellers have such machines as well, I know I've seen them on Newegg. Those $100 off lease machines aren't even all that old and slow, most models are only 3-4 years old and MORE than powerful enough to run JMRI. You can probably get one for free if you check your local Freecycle.
And depending on what DCC system you have, you might just be able to use the one you have, if the connection supports running a long enough cable.
Small LCD monitors are super cheap - you can use an old cast off laptop, also probably can get one with a busted screen for free, just use the external display.
I used an off-lease $50 laptop till it died, now I just use my work laptop. Added advantage is that I have my panels to edit anywhere ... Particularly good when setting up signal logic ... Takes 15-20 min per signal head.
One issue with touchscreen throttles is that the slider is harder to use and I would really like the feel of a knob clicking through speed steps like on a Digitrax DT406 throttle. But- throwing turnouts is a problem on the Digitrax.
A pictorial depiction of the track plan on the screen is pretty awesome to mount on the fascia.
NP.
$35 Raspberry Pi will run debian based linux and Java which JMRI uses. It's the size of a credit card. The only cavaet is you need to make sure your DCC->Computer interface chipset is supported on Debian. A good number are as all they are is RS232 Serial emulators.
http://www.alliedelec.com/raspberry-pi-raspberry-pi-2-model-b/70465426/I REALLY NEED TO PUT TOGETHER A VIDEO to show you guys how to do this.
DigitalGriffin$35 Raspberry Pi will run debian based linux and Java which JMRI uses. It's the size of a credit card. The only cavaet is you need to make sure your DCC->Computer interface chipset is supported on Debian. A good number are as all they are is RS232 Serial emulators.
Unless you look at computers as a second hobby (not that is anything wrong with that), I can't imagine going through all the work to get this set up. I just searched on Amazon for refurbished desktops under $100 and got 1,772 hits.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
Some people will say they never want a computer in the layout room. I have to say, why not? My previous setup was such that my workbench was on one wall and my computer was on the wall behind it, so I could just turn aroudn and access the computer. That was not my main computer, it was a small low power one I built specifically for the layout. More often than not, I used it to look up information on something I was workign on at the bench, hugely handy to have there instead of either trying to use the tiny screen on my phone or actually going downstairs to use the main computer. I used it for stuff like that more often than controlling the layout, mainly because I never got so far that I had the whole layout operational. When I say I mada low power computer, it really was low power - both in actual AC power used to run it and processor power. I ran Linux on it because of that, but JMRI works fine with Linux. The downside is that I couldn;t use my Lokprogrammer to configure Loksound decoders, that software is Windows only. So when I re-set everything up in my new place, I will need to either build a new computer (just repalce the motherboard in thsi one, really) or attempt to get Windows to run on this one - it's supposed to be able to, but I suspect it will be rather slow. One of those 3-4 year old cheap off-lease machines would be MUCH faster.
So you've had that thing since Miami Vice days and haven't upgraded? Then your phone won't run WiThrottle or the Android app, anyway, if you don't have wifi support on the phone.
I don't do cell phones at all, but my wife does. Most smartphones are a lot like computers, people upgrade them every so often. The old ones are, as Randy and other described, usable as throttles on wifi. Sure, they have some value, you can sell them various ways.
Me, with no phones at all? I just make sure to keep the honey-do list stays caught up and that seems to keep me supplied with all the throttles I need. YMMV.
Don,
Yes, please do a video on running JMRI on the Raspberry Pi. There are various instructions around, but they all seem to leave something out that the computer novice is likely to miss. I've managed to get the OS installed on the RPi, get JMRI on it, but still trying to get it to boot over the last few days. The wife has been helping when she can (she programs for a living) but not everyone can turn to good help when you get stuck on one of the many potential sticking points.
One thing that would be handy and maybe simpler, is to do a version that simply lets you click a desktop icon once you've remoted into a headless RPi. The boot-on-startup version that is making the rounds has its uses, particualrly for modular set-ups, but it's the RDP/VCN part at the end the has been the sticking point for me.
I use Rocrail and my iPad and/or my iphone for throttle. All the buttons are marked for what they are on each loco, so I don't just have meaningless F buttons. It's got an emergency stop, and doesn't look like a TV remote from 1980. And anyone with a smartphone can come by and get to the throttle from a browser if I give them my guest wifi password.
I think some of the replies in this thread assume everyone is used to physical throttle. I only recently got into model railroading, and never had any intention of going back to the Bad Old Days of wired throttles, badly labeled functions, and absurd mechanisms for changing DCC addresses.
Yes, I am purposely picking on Digitrax. One of their ugly, overpriced throttles would cost me more than what I've spent on my entire DCC system put together.
Also:
rrinkerSome people will say they never want a computer in the layout room. I have to say, why not?
Because they don't want more money left over to do train things. This is one of the reasons I didn't join my local club. They wanted to spend money on buying separate pieces of hardware to do all the things a computer could do for cheap/free, just because they insisted that "It needs to run without a computer."
Learning one piece of software to control many many things is far easier than learning each manufacturere's specific piece of hardware that may or may not work with what you've already bought.
Julian
Modeling Pre-WP merger UP (1974-81)
Indeed. There are signal controllers that can do all the logic without using a computer. Such as the ones made by Team Digital. But go ahead and read the instructions. Figuring out all those CVs to program the thing is WAY more complex than using JMRI's simple signaling logic to define the "If block 2 is occupied, set signal 6 to red" stuff. But hey, to each his own. I'd rather have the single multi-purpose tool than six single-taskers.
Maybe back in the day when even a low end machine was $1000 or more (just remarked to a friend, there's a new $5 Raspberry Pi model out, which has more computing power than a warehouse full of TRS-80 Model 1's - when those came out they were $599 for the basic 4K RAM model. Yeah, 4K. You needed at least the $799 16K model to do any real stuff with. And that's without the display. I always build my own computers, and I don;t spend $1000 on any of them, yet they are plenty capable of playing the latest games in high detail. 50% of the cost is that video card - so for a railroad computer, even to make a brand new one would far less. Not everyone can do that (well, if you can assemble more complex kits than BB or Accurail, honestly you COULD build a computer these days, there's less electrical skill needed than for putting lights in a building), but that's why those $100 off lease machines exist. More than powerful enough to do railroad stuff, plus surf the web and watch model railroad videos on.
fieryturbo rrinker Some people will say they never want a computer in the layout room. I have to say, why not? Because they don't want more money left over to do train things. This is one of the reasons I didn't join my local club. They wanted to spend money on buying separate pieces of hardware to do all the things a computer could do for cheap/free, just because they insisted that "It needs to run without a computer."
Assuming the club is running DCC, you could really shake them up by telling them there's tiny computer inside each of those black boxes...
Ooooh, nooooooo!
jrbernierAs a question, what does the full $10 App get one?
The biggest difference is that you get two throttles at the same time in the paid version, plus access to the JMRI webserver. IIRC, the full paid version also allows use of more throttles at the same time, but maybe I'm not remembering that quite right.
I don;t think you get access to turnouts in the free one, and there are more throttle types, like the yard throttle with center stop (so no direction button) and stuff in the paid one.
There's no limit (well, depending on your router set up, no more than 252 devices but most consumer routers get squirrely well before an entire /24 subnet is filled) on throttles between the free and paid version, the client app would have no idea. Any limits are set by JMRI, the network, and the DCC system being used. You can freely mix and match free and paid iPhone versions and Android versions all at the same time, so if 2 friends have iPhones and 3 others have Android devices, all can play together.
Must've been some other limit I was thinking of. Info sticks indifferently to my creaky old mind more and more these days.
rrinkerYou can freely mix and match free and paid iPhone versions and Android versions all at the same time, so if 2 friends have iPhones and 3 others have Android devices, all can play together.
This assumes your network is set for DHCP and typical household internet settings. Ours does static IPs currently, due to some work related needs and an old and cranky router. So when folks drop by, there's an extra setting or two of network mojo my wife does, but then everyone can play. Just a heads up to check with your network admin when setting up WiThrottle if someone else handled the fiddly bits/bytes of JMRI for you... YMMV
I use the ROCO z21 DCC system. It comes with its own router and can be controlled by either Android or iOS devices. Bothh as throttles AND panels.
I can also use my old Multimaus and Lenz tethered throttles.
It has WiFi that can be connected to a PC or thru a network cable.
The bigger Z21 also has Loconet capability.
Works perfect!
Swedish Custom painter and model maker. My Website:
My Railroad
My Youtube:
Graff´s channel
mlehman Don, Yes, please do a video on running JMRI on the Raspberry Pi. There are various instructions around, but they all seem to leave something out that the computer novice is likely to miss. I've managed to get the OS installed on the RPi, get JMRI on it, but still trying to get it to boot over the last few days. The wife has been helping when she can (she programs for a living) but not everyone can turn to good help when you get stuck on one of the many potential sticking points. One thing that would be handy and maybe simpler, is to do a version that simply lets you click a desktop icon once you've remoted into a headless RPi. The boot-on-startup version that is making the rounds has its uses, particualrly for modular set-ups, but it's the RDP/VCN part at the end the has been the sticking point for me.
Well the fact you are using headless libraries (No support for Java2D) might be part of the problem. That supports the drawing of all the windows.
https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/oracle-java-on-raspberry-pi/
sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get install oracle-java7-jdk
DigitalGriffinWell the fact you are using headless libraries (No support for Java2D) might be part of the problem. That supports the drawing of all the windows. https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/oracle-java-on-raspberry-pi/ sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get install oracle-java7-jdk
Thanks for the tip. Supposedly the headless builds have what they need as part of the package. This link would help in setting up a non-boot option?
I have buttons on the desktop now to access various parts of DP ...except the files they call out are in the other half of the build that I stuck in another file. Tried merging them, but no can do.
I think the main issue is that I hosed setting up the directories w/ the associated permissions properly, with things ending up in two different ones. Can't sort it out with the GUI, so I'm hoping my wife can at the command line (I am an idiot with that stuff).
Otherwise, now that I halfway know what I'm doing, I plan to start over by reflashing the thing, rebuilding it right and hoping that finally works.
Turns out that Java is part of the problem.
We get:
java.lang.unsupported/ClassVersionError: apps/PanelPro/PanelPro Unsupported major.minor version 52.0
The RPi is running Java 7, but has Java 8 on the machine, too. Found that out after thinking a Java update would help. So I think that JMRI is asking for Java 8 while the Pi is only providing Java 7? Anyway, my wife is doing a Java update on her box to deal with it we hope. Will eventually take this to a thread on lessons learned from my (now 10 days and counting) install of JMRI on the RaspberryPi.
Don't try this at home without a programmer on board... OK , maybe not that bad, but so far no single thread has all the pieces to make this work for the naive -- like me. In fact, I'm not sure all the pieces are out there yet, so this begs for some video intervention. Meanwhile, I have several people telling me locally they'd be interested in my burning them a SD Micro card once I get a working image. This could be a real cool thing for modular groups or even the average home layout. Getting to it right now is not for the faint of heart, though...
mlehmanDon, Yes, please do a video on running JMRI on the Raspberry Pi. There are various instructions around, but they all seem to leave something out that the computer novice is likely to miss.
I'd like to echo the need for more info on setting up JMRI on a Raspberry Pi and if anyone knows of a good and basic intro doc or video, I'd be mightly grateful for the info.
Bernard
Success!
But still not quite ready for primetime. My wife (who gets paid to work in Java among other things) was able to get to the bottom of things with my RPi. I think the issue was related to the fact that we inherited this RPi from a co-worker. I did update it once I got the OS up. That gave my Java 8, but apparently there's some setting that tells it to apply it so it's backwards compatible.
Thus, while the JMR-Pi build I grabbed referenced Jave 8, the RPi was stuck in Java 7. We tried Don's link to update to Java 8, but we already had that...hmmm
So she grabbed the Open jdk 8, instead of the Oracle version, installed and that fixed things.
Right now this build is such a kludge that it would be pointless to document things. She's game for a fresh install and we may do that If I can find time, although likely a month or so away given other obligations. In the meantime, I'm going to work with this build and verify it does what I need, once it's fully operational. I was able to control trains with it, still need to get WiThrottle, turnouts tables, etc working.
Oh and removed the big ol' laptop from over the staging yard.
I use the Hornby E-Link system. A laptop controls what is happen on the track and operates the loco's, points and accessory's. I then use a tablet or andriod cellphone to control the laptop via home WIFI. Makes a great walk around throttle. So far I have had good sucess but have only had it running for a few months. Only down side is you have to pay a one-off fee to operate the portable devices with the software on the laptop.