Hello Modelers
For anyone interested in hearing the recent innovation from Broadway Limited, James (jlwii) has just posted a review of the Rolling Thunder/Paragon 3 system.
I have the receiver on order from TrainWorld and I bought my own sub-woofer so I will be able to play with it soon.
I'm sure some modelers will love it and others will have a much different opinion but I'm sure everyone has to agree that the technology behind this system is worth a close look!
Enjoy, Ed
I don't own a steam engine, but I found the Rolling Thunder sound to be impressive. I would love to hear how a diesel sounds with the system.
For diesel sound, see if this link works . . . .
http://www.broadway-limited.com/rollingthunder.aspx
I'm supposed to respect my elders, but its getting harder and harder for me to find any now.
My Rolling Thunder receiver just arrived a few minutes ago. I have the booklet in front of me and there is a page describing how the receiver "locks-on" to the first available locomotive until it moves out of range after which the next available locomotive will begin playing through the subwoofer.You CAN dedicate one subwoofer to one locomotive using channels (there are 29 available) and setting the channel using CV 212 to a value between 1 - 29.You can also increase the transmitter strength from the locomotive using CV 213 from lowest (value 240) to highest (128)Multiple receivers can be spaced around a larger layout. You can set the range of channels that the receiver scans if you don't need many channels the scanning will perform faster with a lower number of channels selected.The receiver has a DCC address of 1 and can be programmed using ops mode programming. It says there are a number of options to "fine tune" in the receiver that can be changed with CVs. You can use BLI's DC Master to make changes using the bell and horn buttons to step th`rough the CVs.You can dedicate the receiver to one locomotive by setting receiver CV 142 & 143 to the channel of the locomotive.It looks like BLI has really done their homework on this machine! I couldn't wait for a future Paragon 3 locomotive so I ordered a Pennsy L1s so I can try this bad boy out.Regards, Ed
If this works, I'm hoping in a few years that "Rolling Thunder Addons" will be available for other systems, or perhas the "Rolling Thunder Decoder" available separately.I'm frankly still not happy with the bass response of speakers you can fit into an HO locomotive.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Bayfield Transfer Railway If this works, I'm hoping in a few years that "Rolling Thunder Addons" will be available for other systems, or perhas the "Rolling Thunder Decoder" available separately.I'm frankly still not happy with the bass response of speakers you can fit into an HO locomotive.
No speaker inside an HO scale locomotive will ever produce very good bass response - it defies the laws of physics.
The fact that Rolling Thunder and Surroundtraxx exist suggests that the manufacturers have realized all along that only one segment of the market would be happy with "on board" sound in the smaller scales.
Sound is very subjective, highly subject to room and layout conditions, and hard to "scale down" especially in scales as small as HO or N.
One of my other hobbies is designing Hi Fi speaker systems - so as of yet, no onboard model system in HO lives up to my standards, and I'm not sure any will every justify the cost in my view.
I have long suggested that "generic" layout based sounds would be more effective than onboard sounds - but as of yet I have not had the luxury of time to test that theory.....yet the industry slowly moves in similar directions.......
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Bayfield Transfer Railway If this works, I'm hoping in a few years that "Rolling Thunder Addons" will be available for other systems, or perhas the "Rolling Thunder Decoder" available separately.I'm frankly still not happy with the bass response of speakers you can fit into an HO locomotive. No speaker inside an HO scale locomotive will ever produce very good bass response - it defies the laws of physics.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL Bayfield Transfer Railway If this works, I'm hoping in a few years that "Rolling Thunder Addons" will be available for other systems, or perhas the "Rolling Thunder Decoder" available separately.I'm frankly still not happy with the bass response of speakers you can fit into an HO locomotive. No speaker inside an HO scale locomotive will ever produce very good bass response - it defies the laws of physics. Never ever? I wouldn't bet on that, given where technology and miniaturization has taken us in the last few years. Rich
Never ever? I wouldn't bet on that, given where technology and miniaturization has taken us in the last few years.
Rich,
Creating bass response requires moving a specific volume of air. As the speaker diameter decreases, it must have a longer stroke to move similar volumes. Bass notes require high volumes of air depending on room size, conditions, etc.
A 1" specker would need a stroke like a small piston, of an inch or more, to even start to get near the real bass region. That kind of stroke would introduce considerable distortion to both the bass note and the higher frequencies being reproduced.
Headphones are only able to reproduce bass notes witrh small speakers because of the small volume of air between the speaker and your ear - in room, different rules apply.
Yes - never. Even with "bass tube" or labyrinth technolgy, the length and cross section of that labyrinth requires way more cubic inches than the the biggest HO locos whole volume.
Real bass, 60 Hz or below, in a normal room, still requires a cubic foot or more of cabinet enclosure.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL Bayfield Transfer Railway If this works, I'm hoping in a few years that "Rolling Thunder Addons" will be available for other systems, or perhas the "Rolling Thunder Decoder" available separately.I'm frankly still not happy with the bass response of speakers you can fit into an HO locomotive. No speaker inside an HO scale locomotive will ever produce very good bass response - it defies the laws of physics. Never ever? I wouldn't bet on that, given where technology and miniaturization has taken us in the last few years. Rich Yes - never.
Yes - never.
richhotrainNever ever?
What about a hybrid system where you have on-board sound, which I agee, probably will never be able to create the low frequencies needed for realism, sounds that are hard to locate, say below 80 hz, you could use subwoofers under the table. It seems a combination of sound on-board and stationary speakers might provide a good sound experience - the onboard giving the directional sound which follows the diesels.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
riogrande5761What about a hybrid system...
riogrande5761...It seems a combination of sound on-board and stationary speakers might provide a good sound experience
That's what BLI's Rolling Thunder is.
If they were to propduce after market N-scale decdoers with this technology I would be very interested.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
Not odd at all...
I have a USA Trains NYC Hudson that has a pretty good "bark" to it. However...
Unless you are running indoors, the bass sound does not get reflected too much and the ambient noise level is much higher (lawnmowers, blue jays, chain saws, passing aircraft) so the sound levels have to be that much higher to compensate. The distances are greater on many G layouts, too.
Indoors, that's another story. You can get a wider dynamic range and certainly lower bass frequency from the larger speakers and the larger enclosures that the carbody or tender provides.
Ed
Texas Zepher richhotrain Never ever? Yes, I agree. Never ever. It has nothing to do with the miniaturaization of electronics or computers. The laws of physics for sound waves and the biology of the human ear remain intact.
richhotrain Never ever?
Yes, I agree. Never ever. It has nothing to do with the miniaturaization of electronics or computers. The laws of physics for sound waves and the biology of the human ear remain intact.
Yep. Not until they manage to change the size of the various gas molecules in the air.
It's the same reason that when you scale down a WW2 fighter airplane to model size, you have to adjust the wingspan and other parameters if you want it to actually fly. Air molecules do not scale.
gmpullman Not odd at all... I have a USA Trains NYC Hudson that has a pretty good "bark" to it. However... Unless you are running indoors, the bass sound does not get reflected too much and the ambient noise level is much higher (lawnmowers, blue jays, chain saws, passing aircraft) so the sound levels have to be that much higher to compensate. The distances are greater on many G layouts, too. Indoors, that's another story. You can get a wider dynamic range and certainly lower bass frequency from the larger speakers and the larger enclosures that the carbody or tender provides. Ed
In a small room, let's say a typical bedrooom, small "bookshelf" speakers and can begin to reproduce some bass sounds - think of it this way, intsead of the 1" speakers in an HO tender sounding like a cheap 9 transistor radio, the larger speakers in a G scale loco can sound like a portable boom box.
Still not my idea of good sound, but better none the less.
BUT, in a large layout room, like my 900 sq ft space, even G scale locos lack much bass punch - let alone outdoors.
I have little interest in building a layout that only fills a bedroom.........in any scale.
Bayfield Transfer Railway It's the same reason that when you scale down a WW2 fighter airplane to model size, you have to adjust the wingspan and other parameters if you want it to actually fly. Air molecules do not scale.
Ehh? No!
I have been competing at top level i F4C with both a Spitfire (1:5) and a Hawker Typhoon (1:5.5), and the only! difference is the wing loading!
No altered profiles or dimensions!
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ATLANTIC CENTRAL In a small room, let's say a typical bedrooom, small "bookshelf" speakers and can begin to reproduce some bass sounds - think of it this way, intsead of the 1" speakers in an HO tender sounding like a cheap 9 transistor radio, the larger speakers in a G scale loco can sound like a portable boom box. Still not my idea of good sound, but better none the less. BUT, in a large layout room, like my 900 sq ft space, even G scale locos lack much bass punch - let alone outdoors.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL In a small room, let's say a typical bedrooom, small "bookshelf" speakers and can begin to reproduce some bass sounds - think of it this way, intsead of the 1" speakers in an HO tender sounding like a cheap 9 transistor radio, the larger speakers in a G scale loco can sound like a portable boom box. Still not my idea of good sound, but better none the less. BUT, in a large layout room, like my 900 sq ft space, even G scale locos lack much bass punch - let alone outdoors. All of this discussion about bass response strikes me as an argument over loud volume and ear thumping sound. But shouldn't the balance between bass, midrange, and treble be adjusted to scale? Shouldn't bass response in HO scale sound a lot different than standing at trackside listening and feeling to a prototype locomotive passing by? Rich
All of this discussion about bass response strikes me as an argument over loud volume and ear thumping sound. But shouldn't the balance between bass, midrange, and treble be adjusted to scale? Shouldn't bass response in HO scale sound a lot different than standing at trackside listening and feeling to a prototype locomotive passing by?
It is not about loudness, it is about even hearing any bass at all.
If you were here at my house, with my HiFi system, I could put a test recording on and demonstrate, but it is hard to explain to those not familiar with the technical side of sound reproduction.
BUT, as to loudness, that is another problem, our ears do not hear the world in a "flat" response curve based on volume. We all hear mid range sounds (human voice range), better and louder than they actually are compared to other sounds.
Side note - have you ever noticed how few women are interested in HiFi sound? Even if they have strong musical interest or skill? There is a physicalogical reason.
Their ears are tuned to the voice range even more acutely than men - so their only interest in HiFi is in the voice range - cymbals and bass drums never sound as loud them as they do to you......so they are by nature less interested in that aspect of music. Ever notice how women can talk over background noise better than men? It bothers them less because their ears hear it differently.
Listening to recorded music at a perceived volume less than a live performance also distorts how we hear it - that why HiFi systems have had "bass boost" compensation for 50 years now.......
Short answer is, tinny sound hurts your ears after a while because of its lack of acoustical balance - I personally don't need to spend $100 per loco to reinforce some memory in my brain with noise that will just annoy me after 10-20 minutes.
Speaker designers have long tested speaker systems by putting listeners in a room, music playing at near live performace levels, and measured the time it takes for them to be "tired of listening" - the longer the time, the better the speaker.
I get tired of onboard HO sounds in about 8 minutes........I can listen to train videos/recordings on my home theater system for hours......
Also remember we all hear differently, each person dose. You did not want to be a hi-fi sales person with me in the late 60's before my hearing changed as I could hear beyond what the standard doctor could test including things that we are not soposed to hear in the low range, even after many years of obuse it still bothers my ears if you have one of those electronic things to drive away mice, they drive me buggy but no one else seems to notice them.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I get tired of onboard HO sounds in about 8 minutes........I can listen to train videos/recordings on my home theater system for hours...... Sheldon
Actually, Sheldon, while I enjoy onboard sound more than you do, I don't think I could enjoy "hours" of train sounds on any hi-fi system. Maybe in reasonable doses but...NOT hours.
And, how accoustically "accurate" can you verify older train recordings are - e.g. of steamers? With any audio recording there is good digital and bad digital; good analog and bad analog. How certain are you that you are hearing any in true fidelity?
A lot of times those "action" recordings were captured from a moving vehicle with other cars zooming by. So, you have engine noise from the car(s)...and road noise from the tires and imperfections in the road surface itself...along with wind noise because you're traveling along a higher speeds...plus the noise of the locomotive in contact with the rail itself...That's a LOT of extraneous sounds, Sheldon. How much of the "true" chuff or steam whistle sound do you really think you're hearing when you listen to that?
Personally, I wouldn't want to hear onboard sound in true fidelity, as it wouldn't be an accurate representation to the scale that I'm modeling, which is the point I believe Rich is trying to make. While I can enjoy "less-than-perfect" sound coming from my HO Hudson or Niagara, I can appreciate and imagine what it may have sounded like (were I back in the 40s & 50s - listening to one within "reasonable" distance to it) while it was traveling down the track.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
tstage ATLANTIC CENTRAL I get tired of onboard HO sounds in about 8 minutes........I can listen to train videos/recordings on my home theater system for hours...... Sheldon Actually, Sheldon, while I enjoy onboard sound more than you do, I don't think I could enjoy "hours" of train sounds on any hi-fi system. Maybe in reasonable doses but...NOT hours. And, how accoustically "accurate" can you verify older train recordings are - e.g. of steamers? With any audio recording there is good digital and bad digital; good analog and bad analog. How certain are you that you are hearing any in true fidelity? A lot of times those "action" recordings were captured from a moving vehicle with other cars zooming by. So, you have engine noise from the car(s)...and road noise from the tires and imperfections in the road surface itself...along with wind noise because you're traveling along a higher speeds...plus the noise of the locomotive in contact with the rail itself...That's a LOT of extraneous sounds, Sheldon. How much of the "true" chuff or steam whistle sound do you really think you're hearing when you listen to that? Personally, I wouldn't want to hear onboard sound in true fidelity, as it wouldn't be an accurate representation to the scale that I'm modeling, which is the point I believe Rich is trying to make. While I can enjoy "less-than-perfect" sound coming from my HO Hudson or Niagara, I can appreciate and imagine what it may have sounded like (were I back in the 40s & 50s - listening to one within "reasonable" distance to it) while it was traveling down the track. Tom
Tom, completely agreed, with a few comments:
Accuracy of the original recording and fidelity of reproduction are two seperate issues.
But without fidelity of reproduction, accuracy of the original source is meaningless.
Exactly - sound does not scale down - that's why I don't like it.
There is the well known science regarding the fact that once you have heard a piece of music live, or in a HiFi setting, that hearing a "low fidelity" version brings back all you memories of those sounds - true enough. But personaly, music or trains, I don't care for that experiance.
I have said over and over in these discussions that the sound of the locomotive itself is just one of many complex sounds you hear - no argument there - I like the sound that 40 HO freight cars with metal wheels makes on my layout - not exactly like track noise on the real thing, but real and "mechanical" enough, similar to the noise often head in real life from a distance long after the loco noise is gone.
And again, in any scale, if one person is running one train and walking along a walk around layout with that train, onboard sound has one set of merits and results.
BUT, when 8-10 trains are running around a 900 sq ft layout room, set at any volume, it just becomes a din of chaos.
So again, in my view, the effectiveness of sound, fidelity aside, is highly linked to layout design, layout size, layout goals - I have operated on big DCC layouts with lots of sound locos running - my head is pounding in less than 20 minutes.
All other control system infrastructure costs considered equal, sound is not worth one penny to me let alone the $100 per loco it often costs.
And yet the goal of Rolling Thunder is to get closer to true fidelity.......
tstage Personally, I wouldn't want to hear onboard sound in true fidelity, as it wouldn't be an accurate representation to the scale that I'm modeling, which is the point I believe Rich is trying to make.
Personally, I wouldn't want to hear onboard sound in true fidelity, as it wouldn't be an accurate representation to the scale that I'm modeling, which is the point I believe Rich is trying to make.
We are not talking here about sitting in your acoustically perfect den listening to Ravel's Bolero on a pair of $2,000 speakers.
I recently purchased a BLI Paragon 2 steamer, and I love pressing that whistle button and reminding myself of those sounds so familiar to me as a kid near the end of the steam era. No tinny sound to my ears.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL BUT, when 8-10 trains are running around a 900 sq ft layout room, set at any volume, it just becomes a din of chaos. So again, in my view, the effectiveness of sound, fidelity aside, is highly linked to layout design, layout size, layout goals - I have operated on big DCC layouts with lots of sound locos running - my head is pounding in less than 20 minutes.
In an enclosed area I can totally understand and agree with that, Sheldon. Consequently, the same would be true if one were sitting along side a large 1:1 double-diamond with trains coming from both directions - one after another, or inside Moffat Tunnel when a SP Cab Forward came barreling through.
I experienced the former a few years back while visiting the old Erie RR station in Marion, OH. There were two sets of double-diamonds approx. 100' apart. One set was in bad need of replacement and would deflect 3-4" or more as the locomotives and cars rode over the top; producing a very percussive *BANG!* under each wheel set. I literally stood there with my fingers in my ears. As "real" as that was, I wouldn't want to replicate that sound on my or anyone else's layout.
I will also agree with you on the metal wheels. I like the clickity-clack of the wheels rolling over the track joints. It's not at the volume you would normally hear it if you were standing along trackside but it's a fair representation of it - as you put it - from a distance. That's how I view onboard sound. I don't want the full-effect of "being there" but I can enjoy experiencing - from time-to-time - the representive sounds of the locomotives from the bygone era and railroad that I model.
richhotrain tstage Personally, I wouldn't want to hear onboard sound in true fidelity, as it wouldn't be an accurate representation to the scale that I'm modeling, which is the point I believe Rich is trying to make. Precisely. Sheldon makes reference to "tinny sound", but the only time that I hear tinny sound is when the speaker is not secured tightly or the enclosure itself is loose and vibrating. We are not talking here about sitting in your acoustically perfect den listening to Ravel's Bolero on a pair of $2,000 speakers. I recently purchased a BLI Paragon 2 steamer, and I love pressing that whistle button and reminding myself of those sounds so familiar to me as a kid near the end of the steam era. No tinny sound to my ears. Rich
Precisely. Sheldon makes reference to "tinny sound", but the only time that I hear tinny sound is when the speaker is not secured tightly or the enclosure itself is loose and vibrating.
And as I have said before, those who enjoy it should go for it, but again, 6-8 of them going at once is a noise I cannot stand.
Actually, I am seriously considering layout based whistles, bells and horns in the locations where they would be used the most - without the chug-chug of steam or roar of a diesel prime mover.
Tinny - put your favorite song on, even using a cheap "HiFi", and turn the bass all the way down and the trebble all the way up - that is the effect of using a 1" speaker to play ANY sound - the best 1" speaker is barely a mid range driver driver at best.....
Graffen Bayfield Transfer Railway It's the same reason that when you scale down a WW2 fighter airplane to model size, you have to adjust the wingspan and other parameters if you want it to actually fly. Air molecules do not scale. Ehh? No! I have been competing at top level i F4C with both a Spitfire (1:5) and a Hawker Typhoon (1:5.5), and the only! difference is the wing loading! No altered profiles or dimensions!
Interesting. Perhaps the state of the art has advanced from when I was putzing around with it in the 70s.Is that 1:5 as in a 1/5 size replica? That's a darn big model!
ATLANTIC CENTRAL And as I have said before, those who enjoy it should go for it, but again, 6-8 of them going at once is a noise I cannot stand.
Bayfield Transfer Railway Graffen Bayfield Transfer Railway It's the same reason that when you scale down a WW2 fighter airplane to model size, you have to adjust the wingspan and other parameters if you want it to actually fly. Air molecules do not scale. Ehh? No! I have been competing at top level i F4C with both a Spitfire (1:5) and a Hawker Typhoon (1:5.5), and the only! difference is the wing loading! No altered profiles or dimensions! Interesting. Perhaps the state of the art has advanced from when I was putzing around with it in the 70s.Is that 1:5 as in a 1/5 size replica? That's a darn big model!
Yes, scale models that size fly just fine, but as they get smaller from there that do become harder to fly or require modifications.
Worked in a hobby shop for years - my boss was an airplane guy - still a good friend today.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL And as I have said before, those who enjoy it should go for it, but again, 6-8 of them going at once is a noise I cannot stand. That I will agree with. I only keep the sound on for locos on my double main line. I mute the sound on all parked locos. Rich
That I will agree with. I only keep the sound on for locos on my double main line. I mute the sound on all parked locos.
My layout plan has display running or crew running for up to eight trains - sound is just too expensive and complicates too much stuff - like double heading with non sound locos - to have and use selectively.
BUT, if I did want sound, I would use DCC........
The average mainline train is pulled by 3-4 powered diesels or two steam locos - that's a lot of noise......
Those aspects of modeling are way more important to me than sound.