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TCS Diesel Wow Decoder lighting functions are absolutely terrible!

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TCS Diesel Wow Decoder lighting functions are absolutely terrible!
Posted by Meyblc on Thursday, November 19, 2015 10:06 PM

I would really like to meet someone who has successfully been able to install a TCS Diesel Wow decoder and managed to get the ditch lights to work properly.

I just installed 1 of the brand new TCS Athearn Genesis motherboards and the 21 pin TCS Diesel Wow decoder (the new 1 with 6 different engines) into an Athearn Genesis SD60M. As usual, the sound is outstanding. As usual, the lighting functions are horrible.

I installed LED's and fiber optics to replace the Athearn Genesis peanut bulbs. I did this for the headlights, rear headlights and for the ditch lights. Put the locomotive on the track and sound comes on, headlight comes on with 0 pressed on the DCS 51. Go into night mode and turn on the ditch lights.....1 ditch light comes on, the other does not. The 1 that does come on starts to melt the plastic around the ditch light housing on the engine. By the time I realize what's happening, there is smoke coming from the light and the housing is melted!

I soldered the wires to the 12v output and to the LED (with on board resister) tab on the TCS motherboard.

This is the second time I have attempted to install a TCS Wow diesel decoder and used the Ditch lights. The first locomotive was a Kato SD90 with normal lights and ditch lights. The headlights (again LEDs) work fine but the ditch lights seem to have a mind of their own. They work occasionally but do not work the majority of the time.

I have also had 4 of these decoders burn up. They get EXTREMELY HOT and stop working. Yeah, I know, I've read all the suggestions about using a heat sink to help draw the heat away from the decoder. 

These things aren't cheap. Now I've burned up the shell of a locomotive because of the lighting circuit. I'm done with TCS. Never again!

These decoders sound amazing but what good is the sound if the decoder burns up and melts the shell of your locomotive?

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Posted by LogicRailTech on Thursday, November 19, 2015 10:36 PM

Did you contact TCS? I would think and hope that they would be VERY interested in understanding why their product, multiple units at that, are failing as bad as you described. I can tell you that if any of our customers have a problem with any of our products we absolutely want to know what has happened and work diligently to find the root cause of the problem and fix it accordingly. There could be a design flaw that only gets exposed when the product is made in high volume, there could be a manufacturing run that used borderline components that passed a quick test but not a full functional test, etc.

Not making excuses for them (frankly, I don't know them and have no affiliation with them) but just trying to help you, and them, determine what's wrong.

Chuck

Chuck Stancil Logic Rail Technologies http://www.logicrailtech.com
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Posted by gmpullman on Thursday, November 19, 2015 11:18 PM

That's better Smile

A hot incandescent lamp is no fault of a decoder manufacturer.

I have an F-7 with a melted headlight, a Proto2000 0-8-0 and a NKP Berkshire that all had their headlight housings melted because it was my fault for not using an LED or a 1.5 volt microlamp.

I never considered blaming the decoder manufacturer. The six WoWsound decoders I have perform fine for me although I am only using regular headlight functions.

Seems to me that if there was a serious flaw in the lighting effects of these decoders there would have been more news of it in this and other forums.

I hope you get things straightened out. I agree with Chuck, Call TCS Tongue Tied

Happy Modeling, Ed

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Posted by Meyblc on Friday, November 20, 2015 6:22 AM

I have not contacted TCS yet about this latest issue. I have contacted TCS several times in the past about the heat build up issues though and it's always the same answer. Return the fried decoder and we will replace it.

I have installed about 14 of these Diesel Wow decoders in total. 12 of the 1st generation decoders and the 14th being the brand new version that is made up of the Athearn Genesis (MB1) mother board and the 21 pin decoder. Of the total 14 that I have installed, 4 have fried over time (running locomotive for several hours) because of heat build up issues and now this newest one melted the front end of my Athearn Genesis SD60M when the LED in the ditch light caught fire.

14 decoders installed with 5 failures now. 

The majority of these decoders that I have installed have been installed in Athearn Genesis GP9's  and Athearn Genesis GP38-2's  (no ditch lights). I put 1 into a Kato SD90 (and still can't get the ditch lights to work consistently) and now 1 into a SD60M and it melted the front of the shell.

These decoder sound absolutely amazing, but my God......with a 1 in 3 failure rate......figure it out TCS!

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Posted by richhotrain on Friday, November 20, 2015 7:31 AM

Meyblc

I have not contacted TCS yet about this latest issue. I have contacted TCS several times in the past about the heat build up issues though and it's always the same answer. Return the fried decoder and we will replace it.

These decoder sound absolutely amazing, but my God......with a 1 in 3 failure rate......figure it out TCS!

Exactly how are we supposed to help you?  Your issue is clearly with the manufacturer. You say that you have not contacted TCS yet about this latest issue.  Don't you think you ought to?
 
None of us want to appear less than supportive of you as a fellow modeler, but you need to take up this issue with TCS.  I do agree with you that the response, return the fried decoder and we will replace it, is no longer a satisfactory response.  You need to talk directly with someone who can address and resolve the problem, not only regarding the decoders but also the damaged locos.
 
Rich

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Posted by Meyblc on Friday, November 20, 2015 7:44 AM

Rich, I appreciate the response but I don't believe that I was asking for "help". My post and follow up was more a rant and to let others know of the problems that I have been experiencing with these decoders. I am not alone in experiencing these problems. There are several You Tube videos from several different people who outline the problems  that they have experienced with these wow decoders, specifically dealing with the heat issues and the lighting effects.

I have not contacted TCS with this latest issue YET as it happened late last night. I do not believe that TCS has 24 hour customer support.

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Posted by RR_Mel on Friday, November 20, 2015 9:03 AM

I have never fried a decoder or had one quit.  If I were you I’d do a fully detailed and compressive bench test before installing them in a locomotive.  I always do that and I’ve never received a problem decoder.  Everything you have described should be spotted in a through check out of the box.  I have never trusted anyone’s product out of the box.  Before I retired I always put at least one new device from each delivery through a thorough test before placing them into service.
 
Call TCS Customer Service, they will work with you to resolve the issue.  TCS wants all their products to work as advertised without any problems
 
 
Mel
 
Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951
 
My Model Railroad   
 
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Posted by rrinker on Friday, November 20, 2015 11:03 AM

 If these were all LEDs - I just don;t see how it could become hot enough to melt the shell. If overdriven, LEDs pretty much just pop instantly - if confined it's possible to cause slight damage, as I've seen popped LEDs with a chunk blown right out of them. But to stay lit for an extended period of time while getting hot enough to melt plastic? I don't see how this can happen.

 Incandescent bulbs in direct contact with plastic are a bad idea no matter how you look at it. They get away with it for DC because most people don't run their locos at full throttle all the time. With DCC you get full power (and then some, usually just a few diode drops less than track voltage, so more than 12 volts with most systems) so any for of light bulb will run hot. 1.5 volt bulbs driven through the factory dropping resistors, 3v bulbs running through the factory dropping resistors, 12v bulbs, even 14v bulbs will be near maximum on typical HO DCC track voltage.

 I can't imagine this many decoders have the lighting effects messed up that the ditch lights donlt blink when configured to blink - how are you programming them? I've used nothing but TCS decoders, dozens of them,  in my non-sound locos and have never ever had a bad one, nor have I ever fried a decoder or the lights connected to them. I don't know if the WOW Sound are the same, but the non sound TCS decoders have a CV to adjust the lighting outputs for LEDs vs incandescent, and if you don't set for LEDs, LEDs running the various effects will appear to never blink off. My stuff is all first generation diesel with no flashing light effects, but I've tested them to see what they look like out of curiosity, and as long as you remember the LED adjustment, they  are very effective even with LEDs - not all decoders can make that claim. LEDs don't have a glowing filament to aid in persistence of vision and so need to be driven differently to have the same visual effect.

                   --Randy


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by Meyblc on Friday, November 20, 2015 1:30 PM

Randy, I can't believe that an LED did this either. I have done several hundred decoder installations and have used LED'S dozens of times. In this installation, I used 0402 SMD LED'S in place of the factory peanut bulbs for the Ditch Lights. I wired them to the brand new mother board on the F1 tab for LED'S with built in resisters on the mother board. The other wire went to the 12v solder tab. I soldered the second 0402 led to the F2 tab (again marked led with built in resister) and the other wire to the 12v solder point. 

Put track power to the engine. Ditch lights did not work. Pulled the engine off the track and move the 2 0402 led wires from F1 and F2 to F3 and F4. Tried again on the track. Turned the ditch lights on and 1 came on bright white, the second light did not come on. Within a few seconds though, the 1 that did come on turned from bright white to a purplish color and them I saw smoke......then fire. 

I have seen LED'S blow out. There is usually a loud "pop" sound associated. Not this time. 

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Posted by rrinker on Friday, November 20, 2015 2:31 PM

 You did program the ditch light operation, right? Just hooking lights to F1 and F2 do not make ditch lights just work. I suspect maybe some solder bridges what with soldering the wires on, then removing them, then back on different pads - all those LED and full voltage pads are really close together and it takes a lot of care to solder wires to those points without bridging to others. I'd think bridging a resistor pad to a full voltage one would just result in full voltage on the wire, but who knows.

 Also, always test on the program track before putting it on the main. The program track is limited (if you don;t have a program track booster connected) to a low enough current level that nothing should melt. Only if you can read and write the decoder should it be moved to the main for futher testing.

                   --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by Meyblc on Friday, November 20, 2015 4:05 PM

Randy, I did not program F1,F2, F3 or F4 for LEDs. Why would I when the diagram that came with the MB1 mother board tells you to solder 1 leg of the LED to the 12v "common" lead and the other leg of the LED to the F tab (F1, F2, F3, F4) and that these F tabs have resisters in the board specific for LEDs?

I did not use the programming track for testing the LEDs. I used DCC power from the DCS51. All of the LEDs  (front and rear headlights and ditch lights) were wired to 12v common leads (as the instructions tell you to) and then resisters added. The programming track would not put out enough power to illuminate the LEDs

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, November 20, 2015 9:14 PM

Did you solder a 1.2k ohm resistor in series with the SMLED?  Also I looked at the board instructions and didnt see anything about it, but did you flip it over and look for a trace shorting around the built in resistor?  I have no idea if these boards need a trace cut or not, and I dont have a picture of the backside of one or the rating of the LED resistors.  Contacting TCS as others have suggested may be of some help. 

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Posted by rrebell on Friday, November 20, 2015 9:32 PM

I may have missed it, but I didn't see anything about the resistors you used, the bulb is getting too much current.

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Posted by rrinker on Sunday, November 22, 2015 11:41 AM

 There are r4esistors on the board for F1-F4 for this decoder (with the motherboard)

That does NOT mean you don;t need to make CV adjustments to create flashing ditch lights and also select LEDs vs incandescents - the decoder has no way of knowing which pads you soldered the wires to. WOW decoders might not have that setting, but on non-sound TCS decoders it's CV64, defaults to 15 which will never dim an LED, they recommend a range of 2-6 for LEDs and 12-18 for incandescent. It won;t make the LEDs blow up if you don't change it, but it will make what you think will be a flashing light not flash.

And I was mainly getting at making the settings to create ditch lights, setting CV51 and CV52 for the green and purple wires to be alternating ditch lights. For forward only, you would set one to 10 and one to 11. For any direction, it's 42 and 43. There's a shortcut on the non sound ones to set CV8 to 10 which creates forward direction ditchlights, F1 turns them on, F2 makes them blink alternately. The F1 and F2 wires are not automatically ditch lights, you must program the decoder for that functionality.

                           --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by Meyblc on Tuesday, November 24, 2015 1:55 PM

To All:

 

I reached out to TCS about the problem that I had with the MB1 Motherboard and even provided pictures. another gentleman also had problems. turns out the literature that comes with the Motherboard is WRONG.

Here is the reply from TCS:

 

TCS Train Control Systems Mike Yeager, Matt Hazzard - After looking into this further we discovered that our literature had the bulb and LED pads labels switched! Which explains the results you got Mike. We have updated our website to reflect the proper pad location. http://www.tcsdcc.com/.../Litera.../Motherboards/GEN-MB1.pdf

We sincerely apologize for this mistake and would like to offer you both replacement LED's, please email tcs@tcsdcc.com with the subject line "GEN MB1 replacement LED's" to work that out.

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Posted by gatrhumpy on Wednesday, November 25, 2015 4:44 AM

Glad you got it worked out!

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Posted by richhotrain on Wednesday, November 25, 2015 4:50 AM

Meyblc

 

We sincerely apologize for this mistake and would like to offer you both replacement LED's, please email tcs@tcsdcc.com with the subject line "GEN MB1 replacement LED's" to work that out.

Meybic, that is good news, but what about your melted loco shell? 
 
TCS should do the right thing and compensate you for that loss as well.
 
Rich

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Posted by AntonioFP45 on Wednesday, November 25, 2015 8:36 AM

Meybic,

I've been a fly on the wall, reading the posts with interest, and thinking "Come on TCS, don't let the "WOW" turn out to be too good to be true!".

As a modeler that's planning to purchase TCS diesel WOW deciders, I'm glad that you posted this thread and, in the process, contacted TCS and made them aware of what was going on with your units. As a result, TCS has corrected and posted the updated information. Looks like a win-win for future WOW users.

So for now, my plans to install Loksound and TCS WOW sound decoders in my fleet will continue moving forward.

TCS has a good reputation for solid customer service. Give them a chance to make things right regarding your shell.

Also, to be fair, consider editing the title of this thread to reflect the potential problem and the updated info from TCS. YesCool

"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"

 


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Posted by rrinker on Wednesday, November 25, 2015 9:52 AM

 Yeah, I still don't see how an LED running at a full, non limited 12V would stay lit long enough to melt anything. It should have either popped immediately or continued to avalanche until it exceeded the function's current rating and blown the driver on the decoder. Or both - often when a light blows, it takes the decoder line with it. 

                  --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

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Posted by richhotrain on Wednesday, November 25, 2015 10:09 AM

Even if an LED is lit in perpetuity, would it build up enough heat to melt a plastic shell?

Rich

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Posted by tstage on Wednesday, November 25, 2015 10:26 AM

From my experiences - LEDs driven with too much voltage light only briefly (and VERY brightly) then go dark...

Tom

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Posted by CSX Robert on Wednesday, November 25, 2015 10:30 AM

richhotrain

Even if an LED is lit in perpetuity, would it build up enough heat to melt a plastic shell?

Rich

 

There is this misconception in the model railroading world that LED's do not produce any heat, which is simply wrong.  They do not produce anywhere near as much heat as an incandescent for the equivalent light output, so in our typical uses their heat is negligible; however, a high intensity LED driven at a high current will produce a lot of heat and will even need a heat sink in normal operation.

 

 
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Posted by rrinker on Wednesday, November 25, 2015 11:17 AM

 Yes, but who would use an LED like that for ditch lights in a loco? Yes, the 5050 LEDs on my light strip get quite warm at full brightness, but the small ones you'd use for a ditch light, which are not any sort of special high intensity, should never get hot enough to melt styrene before blowing out.

 Now those horrid 1.5V bulbs Athearn insists on using, if drive at full 12V - maybe they would last long enough to melt somethign before blowing out.

                       --Randy


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

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Posted by richhotrain on Wednesday, November 25, 2015 11:35 AM

rrinker

Now those horrid 1.5V bulbs Athearn insists on using, if drive at full 12V - maybe they would last long enough to melt something before blowing out.

Not to worry.  Those Athearn 1.5V incandescents don't last long enough to even feel warm to the touch.   Laugh

Rich

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Posted by tstage on Wednesday, November 25, 2015 11:59 AM

Meyblc did say in the OP that he used fiber optics for the front & rear headlights and ditch lights so maybe he used a more "robust" LED for the intensity.  I guess that's the next question to be answered...

Tom

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Posted by Meyblc on Wednesday, November 25, 2015 5:43 PM

I used Monster Railroader's LED kit which is fiber optics with LED's for the head lights and rear lights and the 0402 smd leds for ditch lights. 

With this TCS MB1 Motherboard 1616, I wired the 0402 smd leds exactly as the instructions from TCS directed. Turns out that the instructions were wrong. In my case, 1 ditch light came on bright white, then a few seconds turned to a purplish color, then I saw smoke and a small flame. 

I agree with the comments that usually if a led is over powered, it blows (and usually rather loudly). Been there, done that......but this did NOT happen this time. 

I still need to talk to TCS and discuss the Athearn Genesis SD60M Shell that is damaged. It's nice that they want to replace the led....but leds are cheap compared to the finished shell.

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Posted by tstage on Wednesday, November 25, 2015 7:42 PM

Monster Railroader...IIRC, that's our ol' beloved troll, Mr. Mayo.

Tom

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Posted by rrinker on Wednesday, November 25, 2015 11:55 PM

 Well that's certainly a spectacular LED failure. The fiber optics probably diminished the brightness a bit, it was probably blinding, until the phosphor began to erode (the purplish color- white LEDs are usually actually UV with a phosphor), which is when you saw the purplish color. And flames - that's pretty impressive. The times I've had a piece of the epoxy case actually blow out, had I photographed the moment with a high speed camera there probably was a flame there too, for a brief microsecond.

                              --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by AntonioFP45 on Thursday, November 26, 2015 8:30 AM

(off topic)

Tom,

Just a quick interjection.

Just want to be fair and point out that .....a lot has changed with Mr. Mayo in the past decade. He's a family man that has been contributing well to the hobby: 

A) YouTube channel featuring his straightforward product reviews on the web. Also has been posting vids with good how-to hobby tips.

B) Regularly visits model railroad shows and expos, speaking candidly with manufacturer's reps on camera, and receiving real feedback that he's been sharing.

C) Has created a line of LED lighting kits for HO locomotives that, according to feedback from modelers, are of good quality and are selling.

People do mature and change as the years cruise by. He's far from being a troll.

 

tstage

Monster Railroader...IIRC, that's our ol' beloved troll, Mr. Mayo.

Tom

 

"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"

 


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Posted by tstage on Thursday, November 26, 2015 8:53 AM

Antonio,

That's why I used the term "ol'".  Having been a mod during Al's "brief" tenures on the forum (and there were many), sometimes you get jaded with particular people.  Having said that, I am glad and pleased to hear that bit of updated news about Al.  Thanks! Big Smile

Tom

https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling

Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.

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