Am I mixing signals?? If I outfit both with dcc, is the 23vdc ok as long as both are running?. Or by virtue of the dcc, is there a limit on what each loco gets? Also, I can't spend "an arm and leg", as I have to be careful how much my hobby dents the budget. So what entry level decoder system would suit? Or because of the age of my locos, is it not worth it and I should continue with running separately.
As always, thank you for an informative and interesting forum.
You need to do a lot of research about DCC and locomotives.
DCC for HO is normally in the 12 to 14 VAC range. That will produce about the same potential, usually about 12 VDC, for the lights and motor.
How much current does your locos draw at 12 VDC? Are the motor contacts isolated from the frame halves if wired like that?
Average current for HO locos today is arounde 500 to 600 ma. HO decoders are usually 1 am max. A few non sound might be 1.5 amp.
If a loco does not run well on DC, DCC will not help.
You might have plenty of voltage but other things might affect how much current the motor can get.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Look at the below link. Lots of very good info, especially in Curriculum.
http://mrdccu.com/
Have you measured the voltage at the point the loco barely runs?
HO train power packs are about 12 to 14 volts max. Kids run their locos off the track at that point.l
Which Tech 7 puts out 23VDC? According to the specifications, the track terminals on all 3 models is 0-14.5VDC, which is just right for HO. 23VDC would be a model meant for G scale trains.
Some with disagree, but a 70's vintage Tyco loco is probbaly not worth converting to DCC. By the Mid 70's they were using really poor motors as a food company (Consolidated Foods) tried to squeeze every last dollar out of old molds and ever cheaper manufacturing plants. This is the era that gave us a GG1 with Alco C-C trucks under it, and a 2-8-2 that was no longer a 2- or a -2, because it was cheaper to leave off the leading and trailing trucks plus the assembly quality was so poor that it ran better as an 0-8-0.
The AThearn blue box loco - with a good tuneup they make good runners. If it's the tan colored motor and not the black one, it's worthwhile to convert to DCC. Still a little high on current draw, but it's not horrible if tuned up. Plus there are many options to replace the motor with a modern high efficiency can motor.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Hello All,
The MRC Tech 7 is a D/C (analog) controller.
Simply put the D/C analog controller takes the Alternating Current (A/C) 110v input and transforms it into Direct Current (D/C) voltage. Then the current is supplied to the track via a rheostat in the "throttle" or controller. The rheostat varies the D/C voltage output from 0v D/C to the maximum, typically 16v; with the Tech 7 23v D/C.
Eventhough the controller produces 23v D/C it's the Amperage output that actually provides the oomph to move the D/C motors in the locomotives. If you have 23v D/C and only 1 Amp of power you won't be able to run as many locomotives as a system that produces 16v D/C with 5 Amps.
DCC; Digital Command Control, is a completely different system. It consists of a controller and a power source, AKA "Booster"; some systems combine the two. The power source takes the A/C 110v and converts it to D/C, like the analog D/C system, but that's where the similarities end.
The power to the track in the DCC system is constant.
The controller generates "packets" of information that are sent through the power source to the entire system (track). The decoders are assigned an address, by the user. The decoder only responds to the packets assigned to it, similar to how e-mail works.
The decoder then performs the specific function specified by the packet information; movement- -forward or reverse, lights, horns, etc., sent from the controller.
If you install DCC decoders in your vintage D/C locomotives and do not convert your pike to DCC they can (with a huge caveat) work. Most decoders have a dual-mode function; D/C & DCC operation.
If you have DCC equipped locomotives on a D/C controlled pike they will perform just like other D/C locomotives; when the throttle is applied they will all move, unless you have your D/C system separated into control blocks.
The advantage to converting your analog pike to DCC is that you can control each locomotive separately without having to divide your pike into separate control blocks.
As the saying goes, "With DCC you are controlling the locomotive not the track."
I really don't see a performance advantage to converting your analog locomotives to digital without converting the entire system to digital.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
richardm47Am I mixing signals?? If I outfit both with dcc, is the 23vdc ok as long as both are running?. Or by virtue of the dcc, is there a limit on what each loco gets? Also, I can't spend "an arm and leg", as I have to be careful how much my hobby dents the budget. So what entry level decoder system would suit? Or because of the age of my locos, is it not worth it and I should continue with running separately.
Maybe it's a misprint, but I see that the TECH 7 AMPAC 760 webpage indicates that the output voltage is 0-23 VDC, while it indicates that both the 700 and 780 output 0-14.5VDC. I thought the max voltage for HO motors is around 16V.
If your Athern locomotive barely crawls while your Tyco runs well, there is probably a problem with your Athern that needs to be resolved, even if you convert to DCC. Full throttle should be achieved with 12 V (see NMRA S-9).
Think of voltage as a pressure and the motor winding as a resistance (narrow pipe) that determines how much current (water) flows through it. Increasing the pressure will increase the current (amps), but other things such as dirty contacts (wheels) or bad connections can also restrict the current through reduce the voltage across the motor.
If too much voltage is applied, the current can be excessive, burning out the motor.
Since the design of the train controller limits the supply current, there's a limit on how many motors can operate at the same time. I assume there is something (fuse, circuit breaker, current limiter) in the controller that protects it from burning out if too much current (a short) is drawn.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Wow... It's a rainy day here in Oregon... so a good time for some "training". I've been out messing with things.... as Grandson says;;" Granpa, why does something always need fixin?"... but then he just likes to lay my old 027 track in various patterns on the floor, whether he runs a train or not.... Anyway I'm glad so many of you were also spending a Sunday "training". Thank you for all the information and reading material. I did not know where to start. I belong to an O-gaugers club -- I joke to them that I am AC/DC... but their experience is whith their 0gauge controllers.... and usually back away if I mention HO. I will spend some time digesting and reading. I did clean the wheels of the Anthern, and it runs better... no tune up yet.
As for the Tech 7 transformer, voltage was "reading the box". It has some means to change the voltage so that the trains have "natural momentum" in slowing or starting.... But it says it is for HO , N and other dc trains... Nowhere does it list amps. I have read about too much voltage... after I bought the transformer. I can return it if it is not going to do what I need.
Main Question: If both locos are suitable to convert to dcc, is the larger transformer better than using my old 15vdc? As I said, both trains run together , but are different speeds. the Anthern did better after cleaning, but still slow. If the transformer with its 23 max vdc would make a good base for dcc, then I should keep it . Otherwise, I should return it.
Main point is that I will read all the linked information to better understand what possibilities I have. I thought it would be cool to have both runningn at the same time, and I think the grandson would get a kick out of it.... and more of a challenge when running the HO's. He's more of the 027 operating things type.
Thanks to all of you who gave me some ideas.... I have a lot of reading and research, before the next step.
richardm47Main Question: If both locos are suitable to convert to dcc, is the larger transformer better than using my old 15vdc? As I said, both trains run together , but are different speeds. the Anthern did better after cleaning, but still slow. If the transformer with its 23 max vdc would make a good base for dcc, then I should keep it . Otherwise, I should return it.
you seem to be under the impression that you can use a DC controller for DCC. You can't.
DCC controllers have their own power sources. The DCC command stations communicate with decoders by inverting the polarity of the track voltage. DC controllers, such as the MRC 760 are not designed for DCC.
A Tyco Silver Streak with flywheels ? - you sure about that ? .... I thought they had those pancake motors attached right to the truck. (?)
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
DCC systems have their own power supplies. Anything you own now could be used for layout lighting or other accessories.
South Penn
South Penn's suggestion that you could use the power pack for layout accessories is correct, but in your case the 23 volts will likely never be used. Most layout accessories are operated on 12 volts or less. If you were to accidently apply the whole 23 volts to your 12 volt lighting system you would probably burn out the whole lot in one big flash.
I would take the MRC power pack back and get a refund, and then use that money to buy a 12 volt power supply. EBay has current offerings for dedicated 12 volt power supplies for less than $10.00
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Mark R. A Tyco Silver Streak with flywheels ? - you sure about that ? .... I thought they had those pancake motors attached right to the truck. (?) Mark.
Late 80's/early 90's, Tyco switched to using Mehano-produced locos, pretty much the same as the contemporary AHM/IHC models - they actually did have a can motor and 8 wheel drive. Much superior to Tyco of the mid 70's, but too little, too late.
See here: http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=24317
At the time, mid 80's.. we were in Alaska, and very limited offerings... it was more... I want that one Dad..... I got a Santa Fe war bonnet schemed passenger, and he got the slilver streak... but later paiinted it.. just becasue.. so I don't know what it was.
If it is not possible to control both trains so they meander around the pike without running into each other... I'll stick with what I have. As for voltage.. I will have to check. 23vdc transformer package says "HO, N and other dc", but 23 seems excessive for trains that normally draw 15, so I will return it... It's not a good deal, unless it suits the purpose.
I really don't want to put money in electronics right now, so not going dcc or souind for that matter is just fine. Thank you for a great discussion topic. This old man never stops learning things.... the wife would wonder why I even thought of this as I have plenty of other things to ponder.... like getting ready for winter rains.. But the nice thing about rain is if you make a path, it will keep going. Snow on the other hand, needs a large place to pile... sure don't miss that.
Thanks again for an interesting day's topic... Richard M.
I finally got an answer back from a tech about the mrc tech7.. he said it does 23vdc "without a load" , but once a train is on, it goes back to about 15.... so it's sales gimic. But I did hook it up to the track with my two locos.... I have a block at each end of the layout. Both moved much faster than with the other transformer.... (They had been moving, but"crawling".) Bottom line, this transformer has more amps, I think, so the locos can move better when both are running. I haven't moved the throttle more than3/4 and speed is nice. So I'm happy, and my grandson can help with on and off blocks and watching for derailments..... Many thanks to all who gave me info... but I'll leave DCC for the future. My old trains don't need the upgrade.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
Here is a meter every model railroader should have to make troubleshooting easier. Does eliminate guess work. Under $5.00 each.
http://www.trainelectronics.com/Meter_Workshop/index.htm
http://www.trainelectronics.com/Meter_HF/index.htm
I have four of these meters. Good for checking the car electrical which is 12 vdc. Even around the house if you can work with mains power. They bounce if dropped.