One of my particular interests in the time I was away from the MR hobby has been RC flight - a hobby that has been entirely transformed in the last 15 years by (primarily) lithium batteries, brushless electric motors, and spread-spectrum radio technology.
I'm curious; is model railroading taking notice? Is there a(ny) movement towards battery-powered, radio controlled trains in popular indoor sizes (HO, in particular)?
I'm imagining a layout that needs no track wiring, no reversing circuitry, no hunting down shorts and wiring faults underneath the benchwork and scenery.
I haven't started the conversion to DCC yet, and I'm of half a mind not to bother. The potential for R/C just seems... better. Am I alone in this thinking?
No, you are by no means alone! There are several manufacturers out there that offer battery powered radio control systems: Lochtfield Station http://www.litchfieldstation.com/xcart/home.php?cat=452 , North West Shortline (NWSL) http://www.nwsl.com/S-CAB_Radio_DCC_Control.html are just two.
Ring Engineering http://www.ringengineering.com/ , while out of the box does require voltage on the tracks, it can easily be converted to battery power.
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
Bachmann will offer a system to use with a smartphone. Check the Bachmann site.
Some systems will run on a DC or DCC layout as the battery can be charged by either method.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
MRR technology is advancing even as we speak.
Some are not aware that DCC is only ONE WAY of controlling model trains with digital technology. It is easy to confuse the different methods.
modelmaker51 No, you are by no means alone! There are several manufacturers out there that offer battery powered radio control systems: Lochtfield Station http://www.litchfieldstation.com/xcart/home.php?cat=452 , North West Shortline (NWSL) http://www.nwsl.com/S-CAB_Radio_DCC_Control.html are just two. Ring Engineering http://www.ringengineering.com/ , while out of the box does require voltage on the tracks, it can easily be converted to battery power.
And this one:
http://shop.crest-electronics.net/main.sc
They are introducing HO sized receivers and are one of the leaders in battery power for large scale.
Sheldon
Don't forget CVP Products as well. A friend of mine just got this set-up this week, and I'm looking forward to see how it works out ....
http://www.cvpusa.com/mini_airwire_convrtr.php
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
The stuff from Backmann is coming out now with more in NOV. The company that makes the chip is coming out with a plug-n-play 8 pin in Dec. and can be converted to dead rail. Even my DC train setup is wireless to the controler (Train Engineer by Crest) and I have their plug-n-play stuff made for HO but I will proubly go with the new stuff, much easyier (never could spell and I have two college degrees).
Now not to start a flame war but DCC reminds me of early code writing, one mistake and it didn't run or run well. My train friends have them and there is always a problem with learning the ins and outs of each decoder and the different systems, even the old Crest stuff (from before the breakup) runs on any DC or DCC system.
Maybe people try to hard? I install decoders in my locos, program an address, and off they go. Only real mistake could be keying in say 567 when I meant to key in 576. Can't fix that. Keyboards have been around since the 1800's and people still make typos.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker Maybe people try to hard? I install decoders in my locos, program an address, and off they go. Only real mistake could be keying in say 567 when I meant to key in 576. Can't fix that. Keyboards have been around since the 1800's and people still make typos. --Randy
I'll have to look into some of those commercial systems. Maybe wait to see how the Bachmann version works out. Their dcc setup is about as easy as they come (albeit limited), might bode well for their wireless too.
Rrinker: I'm also a bit of a Reading fan. Grew up along one of their former branches, near a small classification yard. Started my train interest in a lot of ways.
Wait til people start blowing up LiPo batteries because the charging circuit isn;t hooked up right... there are plenty of ways to smoke things with dead rail, if anythign there's MORE to wire than with DCC. You're just moving around where the complexity lies. Perhaps it is the way of the future. Once there is some standard it may indeed take off. Too many different systems - picking one today would be like picking Dynatrol or Keller or Railcommand in 1992, right before the DCC standard started being worked on.
Besides having some sort of common control signals, IMO for a dead rail system to succeed, it must offer charging from the rails so you don't have to constantly take your locos off the track to charge them. Even with modern LiPo batteries, you need a lot of space to get any sort of decent runtime, so smaller HO and anything smaller is just right out for now. Given how small they make DCC decoders these days, I'm sure the electronics for a dead rail system can be made small enough to fit even in Z scale - the problem comes back to the battery. If charging canbe done from the rails, you can get nearly unlimited run time, just like a normal track powered loco, yet still make complex trackwork like reverse loops completely dead to avoid autoreversers or other controls. Next problem is track detection - any sort of whole block detection system generally relies on sensing current flow in the rails. No problem for rolling stock, resistor wheel sets will still work, assuming there is power in the rails still. Except those dead sections. And what about light engine moves? If they do not have recharging fromt he track, the loco would be insulated from the rails. Or need pickups anyway, with a resistor across them. Further complicating the installation. Anything that applies to installing a DCC decoder and not having it smoke, such as making sure the motor brushes are isolated fromt he frame and rails, still applies to dead rail, so the very same ways people smoke DCC decoders will also smoke dead rail receivers. Possibly worse - a LiPo battery pack can provide a LOT of amps in a short time to a short.
rrebell Now not to start a flame war but DCC reminds me of early code writing, one mistake and it didn't run or run well. My train friends have them and there is always a problem with learning the ins and outs of each decoder and the different systems, even the old Crest stuff (from before the breakup) runs on any DC or DCC system.
The battery problem, is not a problem, they have very small batterys now that will give 6 nours or more in run time, and that is with the existing batteries. The new batteries will work for a week and recharge in less than hour (thanks to the resurch for cell phone batteries, you didn't think that this was done for trains, did you).To recharge the batteries, you can use a recharge track or a plug. As far as singnal systems, how many accually use them, a small percentage and like sound will be worked out (accually there are dead rail sound locos out there. As far as putting in batteries backward, once saw a fellow employee put in a dewalt battery backward, I ran over and pryed it apart in seconds but it was already getting hot.
Yes, Li-Ion batteries. Heavily used in radio control planes and drones as well. The battery in a typical cell phone would barely fit in an O scale loco, and no way would it drive an O scale train for 6 hours on a charge - just because it can power your cell phone for 6 hours. There really aren't any small enough for N and Z. The one for my micro quad copter, which can sit in the palm of my hand, is too big for most HO locos, and it can only fly the quad for about 15 minutes. It's getting there. The new 20V DeWalt cordless tools are a fraction of the weight of my old 18V one with the old NiCad battery, plus they run longer on a charge. That would be a good battery for a G scale loco. It's all a trickle down, as things get smaller. G scale hasdone direct radio for a long time now - sure beats trying to keep track clean outdoors in all sorts of weather. It's doable in HO now, but those small battery packs don't run for hours. If you could charge from the rails, you could theoretically run as long as anyone using DC or DCC, unless you spent all your time switching in an unpowered part of the layout.
There is one guy bI know of that runs his on a 9-v battery.
Ok, just one option, size 1.38x.8x.4 for size 7.4v 180mAH=aprox 3 hr run time. Not that I say this is the best option, just one I came accross.
HO DCC + sound equipped locos need provision for 1 Amp draw @ 15v (or so), though they may pull less current in normal operation (.3-.6 A). Either way, 180mah @ 7.4v isn't going to get you very far; certainly not hours of operation.
OTOH, the situation is much less demanding than planes, where sustained current draws of 30+ Amps @ 12-16v are 'normal'. I would think a system designed around 11.1v (3S) batteries of around 1000mah might be pretty achievable. Would work better for steam than diesel though, as you need the room to stash that battery.
RRR_BethBr HO DCC + sound equipped locos need provision for 1 Amp draw @ 15v (or so), though they may pull less current in normal operation (.3-.6 A). Either way, 180mah @ 7.4v isn't going to get you very far; certainly not hours of operation. OTOH, the situation is much less demanding than planes, where sustained current draws of 30+ Amps @ 12-16v are 'normal'. I would think a system designed around 11.1v (3S) batteries of around 1000mah might be pretty achievable. Would work better for steam than diesel though, as you need the room to stash that battery.
CVP Products' system is designed around the 11.1v battery and is supposedly capable of running the engine for 2 to 3 hours !
Kupla thoughts:
If you're using battery power. And if the battery will need to be charged. What is wrong with charging from the rails as it is running? I don't see what you gain with "dead rails".
But.
Should you choose NOT to use the rails to charge the battery--essentially dead rail, signal detection is very simple. You do it like the real railroads. Which have dead rails. And, oh yes, like I used to do with Lionel 3-rail.
Ed
rrebell RRR_BethBr HO DCC + sound equipped locos need provision for 1 Amp draw @ 15v (or so), though they may pull less current in normal operation (.3-.6 A). Either way, 180mah @ 7.4v isn't going to get you very far; certainly not hours of operation. OTOH, the situation is much less demanding than planes, where sustained current draws of 30+ Amps @ 12-16v are 'normal'. I would think a system designed around 11.1v (3S) batteries of around 1000mah might be pretty achievable. Would work better for steam than diesel though, as you need the room to stash that battery. Since we are not talking DCC, 7.4v is more than enough for say my Proto 2000 0-6-0. Also remember we are talking lipo batteries, the new batteries are smaller and more powerfull. Prieto's new copper battery or the Nano "yolk", 6 min charge time, 3x power. They also have a new car battery in the works that uses water, not kidding, you think Musk is building his new factory to build conventional bartteries, I don't think so!
Since we are not talking DCC, 7.4v is more than enough for say my Proto 2000 0-6-0. Also remember we are talking lipo batteries, the new batteries are smaller and more powerfull. Prieto's new copper battery or the Nano "yolk", 6 min charge time, 3x power. They also have a new car battery in the works that uses water, not kidding, you think Musk is building his new factory to build conventional bartteries, I don't think so!
Actually, we ARE still talking DCC as most of the systems mentioned in the start of this thread (aside from Bachmann) utilize standard off-the-shelf DCC decoders. This is a real benefit in that we can still utilize all the features of our favorite sound or non-sound decoder, we aren't locked into some companies proprietary system (like Rail Pro).
Accually we started with someone asking about battery vs DCC, not DCC vs wireless control. That being said a lot of the companys are trying to combine the two. Bachmann has the ability to change things, they have proven this time after time, no they don't neccisarily make the best stuff but they get everyone else started and they sell alot of their stuff in the meantime. I remember when you had to do alot of work to get an engine to run as good as a Spectrum and remember when On30 was almost non existant, I do!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now Bachmann is bringing out their bluetooth stuff, dead rail is about to expand big time, think about it, no more wiring shorts on track or powered frogs, heck, no more track wiring unless you want to and it can run on a DC, DCC or whatever layout.
rrebell Accually we started with someone asking about battery vs DCC, not DCC vs wireless control. That being said a lot of the companys are trying to combine the two. Bachmann has the ability to change things, they have proven this time after time, no they don't neccisarily make the best stuff but they get everyone else started and they sell alot of their stuff in the meantime. I remember when you had to do alot of work to get an engine to run as good as a Spectrum and remember when On30 was almost non existant, I do!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now Bachmann is bringing out their bluetooth stuff, dead rail is about to expand big time, think about it, no more wiring shorts on track or powered frogs, heck, no more track wiring unless you want to and it can run on a DC, DCC or whatever layout.
Have you looked at the other company's links ? They ARE battery power, but still use standard DCC decoders. So, it's not "battery vs DCC" it's on-board / wireless / battery powered DCC !
The blue tooth concept, along with the Rail Pro system are technological marvels, BUT - the downfall is you have to use THEIR proprietary components. The other manufacturers are utilizing standard DCC decoders with their battery powered systems making the actual "control module" already an NMRA compliant component.
No, what I am talking about it the original post, not where the discusion went.
rrebell No, what I am talking about it the original post, not where the discusion went.
The original post was "....battery-powered, radio controlled trains in popular indoor sizes (HO, in particular)?" Isn't that what we have been talking about ? - battery power, radio controlled engines that utilize off-the-shelf components (DCC decoders).
no
RRR_BethBrI'm imagining a layout that needs no track wiring, no reversing circuitry, no hunting down shorts and wiring faults underneath the benchwork and scenery.
This already exists.
It's called Brio.
The power density just isn't there for any realistic run time. Even if you took out all the chasis weight and replaced it with lithium you wouldn't have a realistic run time. 14 Watts is a lot for an little battery to supply over a long time.
Sorry just the way it is.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!