caboose62 I am new to DCC, but after all research, I opted for the Digitrax Zephyr. Good starter system and also expandable in the future. . .
I am new to DCC, but after all research, I opted for the Digitrax Zephyr. Good starter system and also expandable in the future. . .
Same boat; same decision. No regrets.
Richard
I have been programming Sound Decoders from the very start when Sound first became available as I was probably one of the first in my area to try out a sound engine!
And to boot - It was a BLI - supposedly the hardest to program at the time.
I didn't really believe them as I just plopped it down on the Program track - while my layout was up and running - and programmed the engine number right in!
Put up on the layout and away we went.
Not knowing until weeks after that the Forum members couldn't do it made me wonder why mine worked.
As more Sound engines were being purchased more Operatrors were bringing them to my layout to run and they needed to be programmed - I just did them and they were happy.
As the newer Sound units became available with Talkback - we had more problems Programming them.
I soon found a way to do it using my good old Program track and I just kept on Programming everyones engines.
Now - I do have to admit the MRC decoders - no matter what type - are a problem but I never had too many to do and if I did - my one operator just took them home and programmed them on his EASYDCC system.
So - if one knows their equipment - it is AMAZING what they can do with it.
It may NOT be in the manual - but learning all of the little short cuts one gets by being on ALL of the DCC forums - Digitrax, NCE, EASYDCC, MRC, LENZ etc etc.
While it may not be reative at this moment in time - usually down the road (I have been into DCC 1999) it usually cames in handy.
As for using the other brands - It least I get to know ALL of the other DCC systems as we regularly RUN on them all as our I-80 Operations Group travel around the country to visit and attend Operations Sessions.
This is where one really learns the system. Not one person at home by themselves will ever gain the experience in having to work in a Operations environment with 20 or so other operators and SEE first hand the Problems the DCC systems have.
YET - there are those that seem to know all about said DCC system and have NEVER really used one for extended periods of time in an Operations environment - YET are the first one to begin ditzing the other Brands - no matter which ones they are.
I am selling and Installing DCC systems I get to know them fairly well and also going to other Layouts - Mega types as well as the smaller ones to attend OPs Sessions only gives me more experience to help out those that are having problems.
As was stated they ALL have their Good Points and their Bad points.
It is just that I began with Digitrax and still prefer it over the other brands - it is funny - each one of the DCC systems still is able to run trains!
BOB H - Clarion, PA
I have never had a problem programming Tsunamis or QSI with my Zephyr, and no program track booster (and no using Blast Mode, either). It's always "just worked". My PR-3 in standalone mode, using the normal PS-14 power supply, not a third party higher voltage one, also reads and writes Tsunamis just fine, I even managed to get JMRI to read one of those "unreadable" MRC ones - worked if I just read a few settings per sheet at a time, read full sheet = instant fail with it.
A DB-150, in the guise of a Super EMpire Builder set, has always been able to program Tsunamis as well - it is pretty much just like a Powercab in that there is no dedicated program track and it programs using full power. That's been around - hmm, 15 years or so as well. BTW that auto-switch thing NCE has for the PowerCab so you CAN make a dedicated program track workes great witht he DB-150 as well. Prevents accidently programming everything on the layout.
I've since permanently avoided any future issues by standardizing all my sound decoders on Loksound and trading off my last Tsunami, so even though the program fine on my system, I no longer have to worry about it.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
CSX RobertHow is the ability to use a DC power pack as a throttle with the Zephyr a "sign that some folks just can't let go of DC."
Just trying to have a little fun here, Robert. Relax, The DCC Police will NOT be showing up to confiscate that old power pack you have buried in the yard "Just in case..."
Hey, if people are using 15 year old D-stuff, there must be something good about it. I wasn't knocking Big D, just giving my opinion based on my experience -- no experts needed for that, fair enough? It's not my understanding that anyone is checking credentials at the door here for admission.
Seriously, these "which DCC system is best" discussions really are pretty pointless. None are and they all are -- to someone. Your best bet if you really want to know what works for you, as has already been mentioned, is try them out yourself on someone else's layout. Not in a store or over the internet, but hands on with plenty of time to do different things with them.
The choice in DCC ultimately comes down to what suits you as an individual. And there's no accounting for taste. Mostly, it's not even a matter of specs or performance, although certain features can be more or less attractive. It's all about what works best for you and your budget. Regardless of all those who like their Digitrax stuff, it just doesn't work for me. Kind of like owning a Ford (OK, now I will get some real flak), it's something I have no need for. In contrast, using the NCE system is virtually intuitive. Whover designed it must think about these things a lot like me. Like PC vs Mac, you do end up having to choose a side. Doesn't mean that the alternative isn't perfectly suitable for use by others.
BTW, I will mention one more plus that the PowerCab has for a starter system. It willd program sound decoders without the need for a booster (eg Soundtraxx PTB-100) that is sometimes needed. If you plan to program sound this is convenient and saves spending ~$40 or so on the booster that many DCC systems, including the NCE PowerPro systems don't have the capability to do without it. That's why I have the PowerCab on my programming track.
Big D didn't used to have a throttle that did that, but if they do now, maybe someone, expert or not, can inform us what they offer.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
mlehmanThat's neat, but I guess another sign that some folks just can't let go of DC, even when they're mostly DCC. Kind of reminds me of thoese turntables you can record LPs directly to your computer in a digital file. Not knocking vinyl, either, as I have plenty of it and appreciate its virtues -- yes, DC, has a few, too -- but it's a declining market. Of course, old DC powerpacks are cheaper than new DCC controllers, but the form-factor of most of 'em doesn't seem too attractive to walkaround ops...
How is the ability to use a DC power pack as a throttle with the Zephyr a "sign that some folks just can't let go of DC."
I am new to DCC, but after all research, I opted for the Digitrax Zephyr. Good starter system and also expandable in the future. Seems to work very well. One caution that I discovered in DCC is that trains run much slower than on DC but it is also more like a prototype RR.
Guess I'm just nicer about it - but it does irk me that comparisons are made against products that Digitrax stopped selling over 15 years ago. Yeah, programming with a DT100 isn't very intuituve or easy, but since the DT300, which came out when, 1999 or 2000?, it has been much more obvious without the workarounds to get numbers bigger than 99 into a 2 digit display. Key combos became a thing of the past with the DT400. Lots of buttons, but every function its own button. No odd things like the loco select button to select a loco and shift-loco select to select an accessory or such nonsense.
Comparison charts often mark a negative that Digitrax doesn;t upgrade the command station. Because the network design means there's no need to. In all the years they've sold the DCS100, there's been exactly 1 upgrade - once the NMRA expanded the functions past F8, the code in the original DCS100 wouldn;t send the packets correctly for functions over F8. That was fixed long before the present expansion to 28 functions - yet no upgrade was needed to access all 28.
OK I guess it is all right to throw out bad information just because they are YOUR experts,
I guess you will learn by your mistakes.
Have FUN!
Been in business for 20 plus years - must be doing something right - like telling the truth - but some don't want to hear that.
Zephyr Xtra has it on the console, too. Gives you a brake to work against the throttle since the throttle on teh Zephyr and UT4 are potentiometers instead of encoders, so you can leave the speed set and brake or accelerate with the brake lever alone.
rrinkerThose are UT4's, the middle spot is brake.
They call ita brake, now that you mention it. Seems more like neutral in how it works, so guess that's why I'm remembering it as neutral. Kinda like learning to work the pedals to make a Model T go. I can see it could be helpful, when it's not confusing folks like me.
rrinker Those are UT4's, the middle spot is brake. So you can theoretically switch without touching the knob. Switch from forward to brake, train will slow down and stop, switch to reverse, it will speed up gradually. That's not a mod, that's the way they come. --Randy
Those are UT4's, the middle spot is brake. So you can theoretically switch without touching the knob. Switch from forward to brake, train will slow down and stop, switch to reverse, it will speed up gradually. That's not a mod, that's the way they come.
That's pretty cool actually!
mlehman Who needs neutral if you don't have a transmission!!!
Haha I was wondering that same thing, let's see no transmission, no dynamic breaking, maybe it'll rev the engine if it has a sound decoder? Cool but I'd rather not bother with it still lol.
cmrproducts I just love these so called Experts that use the OTHER brands and sit around and ditz Digitrax! And I know - as I sell Both Brands!
I just love these so called Experts that use the OTHER brands and sit around and ditz Digitrax!
And I know - as I sell Both Brands!
First of all let's keep this friendly, people have different preferences and opinions and each one is something they like and is suited to them. I will probably go with whichever one I like the most and fits my needs the most. Second thing, who says who is more of an expert than someone else? So far I trust the first few guys that have been chatting with me as they have expertise in this area, so I would call them experts. And third, I hope you don't treat your customers like this.
So, maybe it's only the old Digitrax I find so confounding? Well, that's what I've got to work with. First impressions do tend to point us to different paths, depending on how they go. I suspect NCE growth may be due in part to providing that better user experience upfront. Then Big D stepped up its game. That's the way it's supposed to work.
rrinkerProbably the only real fault with the older DT100, the knob doesn;t click to reverse, there is a button. SO after I press a few times wondering why it doesn;t click, then I remember I have to press the direction button.
Yeah, that one still gets me about 3 times and ops session. Darn thing won't move??? It's stuck in Neutral again. On the throttles I've been using, direction is via a three position toggle on top the throttle, but that may have been a mod, not sure. Who needs neutral if you don't have a transmission!!!
cmrproductsI just love these so called Experts that use the OTHER brands and sit around and ditz Digitrax!
Bob,
Didn't call myself an expert, just related my experience and impressions. Believe it or not, other folks might come to different conclusions even though they have the same set of facts as you do.
As for fitting people's hand's, sometimes larger works better, all depends on the person interacting with handheld blackbox. Consider your average camera these days, about the size of a pack of cigarettes! Give me something with some meat on its bones so I can hold onto it.
Must be still using the old stuff, since at least 2004 (and it has to be earlier, actually, since I bought my system in 2002), thre was none of that knob twisting to enter addresses, there was a full number keypad to directly enter the digits. Oh, you can still dial up an address with the knobs, if you want to, for some silly reason. Quicker to just press the numbers.
Therein is the other nice thing - I did pick up one of the really old throttles on eBay. It's not that hard to dial in an address. I have sound locos, but I don;t care about all those extended functions that make moos and stuff - I need a headlight button, bell, and whistle, and the old throttle has that, so it is perfectly suitable to run trains. I wouldn;t try to program with it, too many compromises to make it all work with just 8 buttons. There does seem to be a somewhat mistaken impression that more buttons = more complicated. Quite the reverse, when every button does just one thing. No shift-key combinations, a button for every function. That's what makes the newer full cabs easier to use. The basic cabs are about as easy to use as anything, just dial in the address, big knob for speed, toggle for direction.
Nice fair review of MRC in the latest MRH - faults and all. Same one I always noticed - the throttles, while looking a lot like NCE ones, are pretty much impossible to use one-handed, as the knob is on the bottom. My DT400 and DT402 throttles, one handed, either hand, operation is super easy. Once an address is entered, I have no need to look at the display, and can just hold the unit in either hand, down at my side, adn spin the speed knob with my thumb, clickign it reverse direction. Easy. Probably the only real fault with the older DT100, the knob doesn;t click to reverse, there is a button. SO after I press a few times wondering why it doesn;t click, then I remember I have to press the direction button.
mlehman rrinker I know, it's hard to press the Loco button, and key in the address. Or turn the knob to the right to go faster, left to go slower. --Randy Ooooooh, that sounds so modern. A lot like my NCE has always been, since circa 2007 anyway. Maybe the places I operate all have the old school D-stuff? Theirs are all knob-selectors for the loco address and a bunch of tiny identical buttons with cryptic acronymns for labels -- at least that's what they trust me with, probably for good reason. The funny part is everyone else I operate with are D-users, but when we operate on their layouts lots of time is spent with them asking each other how to do something. When they come over here and are handed NCE -- that I suppose started as a mystery to them -- and I rarely get asked anything about throttles.
rrinker I know, it's hard to press the Loco button, and key in the address. Or turn the knob to the right to go faster, left to go slower. --Randy
I know, it's hard to press the Loco button, and key in the address. Or turn the knob to the right to go faster, left to go slower.
Ooooooh, that sounds so modern. A lot like my NCE has always been, since circa 2007 anyway.
Maybe the places I operate all have the old school D-stuff? Theirs are all knob-selectors for the loco address and a bunch of tiny identical buttons with cryptic acronymns for labels -- at least that's what they trust me with, probably for good reason.
The funny part is everyone else I operate with are D-users, but when we operate on their layouts lots of time is spent with them asking each other how to do something. When they come over here and are handed NCE -- that I suppose started as a mystery to them -- and I rarely get asked anything about throttles.
Appearientlyt they are old THrottles - as I still have some!
And I know which one I will keep using and it isn't N
I love the comments about holding the Throttles as the OTHER brand users claim they are better able to hold the Throttles when in FACT the OTHER brand Throttles are Bigger Wider and thicker than any of the D throttles.
Again only way I found that out was I had to modify my Holster I made for the D Throttle as the N throttle wouldn't fit - had to make the holder wider as the N throttle was more than a 1/4" thicker than the D Throttle and TOP heavy to boot!
And the N throttle is for a Right Handed person as the Direction button is on the wrong side for a person holding the Throttle in their Right hand and doing uncoupling with their Left hand.
And NO my hand isn't small - so that joke is out!
Now everyone knows the story about the Throttles!
jalajoie Keep in mind that if you unplug the Power Cab to move it elsewhere, you are in fact shutting down the entire system.
Keep in mind that if you unplug the Power Cab to move it elsewhere, you are in fact shutting down the entire system.
Yep -- there is that drawback. BUT, if you were to add a SB5 booster, then it kinda takes over as "command station" and allows you to unplug the Powercab throttle without shutting everything down.
Alternate is to just get a Cab04p (or other throttle) to use as the walk-around (and the Powercab stays at the middle).
Options abound, regardless of which system you choose
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
That's neat, but I guess another sign that some folks just can't let go of DC, even when they're mostly DCC. Kind of reminds me of thoese turntables you can record LPs directly to your computer in a digital file. Not knocking vinyl, either, as I have plenty of it and appreciate its virtues -- yes, DC, has a few, too -- but it's a declining market. Of course, old DC powerpacks are cheaper than new DCC controllers, but the form-factor of most of 'em doesn't seem too attractive to walkaround ops...
Of course, if I had gone Digitrax, I could've kept one of my MRC CM20s on that 2nd cab wiring and fed the Digitrax box that as one of the DC throttles from what is now enough mothballed wiring for a whole 'nother layout that I abandoned in place. And I would've had walkaround control. Sounds attractive until I realize I'd be stuck trying to figure out my D-throttle each time I picked it up.
Guess that's why I roll with NCE
Using old DC packs as extra throttles with Digitrax is not the same as its ability to run a DC loco on the DCC track - each of those DC packs conencted to the 'jump' ports can be assigned any valid DCC address, to run ANY decoder-equipped loco. ANd one fof them can be assigned address 00 to run a DC loco, but it's not passing through the output of the DC pack. It't just assigning address 00 to one of the jump throttles.
jalajoieKeep in mind that if you unplug the Power Cab to move it elsewhere, you are in fact shutting down the entire system.
Good to know, as I wasn't sure how it handled memory. Probably not a big deal on a small layout and a good excuse to eventually add a smaller, throttle-only controller to utilize the walkaround capability via the UTPs.
My PowerCab is used on the programming & test track, so only gets used as a throttle on the main PowerPro-powered layout during ops session.
Randy reminded me of something else common to NCE, but that's different than Digitrax. NCE does NOT do DC. If that's a factor, that could also be a deciding point. Realistically, this is a feature I never felt at a loss for, because once DCC, like many folks are, there was no going back.
Don't bother. Limited expandability - it's a feature-reduced version of an ESU starter system - the ESU version has lots of expansion options, Bachmann left off some ports.
Stick with the Zephyr Xtra or PowerCab. Zephyr Xtra is 3 amps, can run 22 throttles, and you can use your existing DC power pack (or two of them if you have them) as 2 extra throttles right out of the box. Dedicated program trackw ith readback, and full expansion into however big a system you want.
Thanks guys that sounds like a good option.
Also what do you all think of this: The Bachman 36505 Dynamis DCC Controller
http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Bachmann-36505-Dynamis-DCC-Controller-p/bac-36505.htm
Personally I'm starting to lose faith in Bachman products, I've had two older motors in locomotives burn up from them and they just feel kinda cheap.
Jack W.
The PowerCab is well-suited to your layout and likely operations on it. You'll likely want to add a couple more plug-in points (UTP) so you can move to the other side of the layout easily. Other than that and the RJ cables to connect them, everything comes with the PowerCab.
Thank you guys all so much! I will definitely check out the NCE system! I would only h ave about 3 locomotives running at a time at most on my layout. It isn't a big layout, L shaped and about 6' x 4' x 6' for the size single main line track so I'm not too worried about having enough power for it.