My Father inlaw taught me about getting in and out fast with a real hot iron after he saw the plastic ties on my track. So I bought a bundle of used track at a train show for a $1.00 and practiced away. I used my weller on the 260 watt setting and got pretty good at it. Until I thought to ask about solder with a lower melt temp on this thread it never occured to me that there was such a thing. I think if I get some it will (hopefully) eliminate melting ties all together. I wasn't always 100% melt free on the ties, but very close.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Talk about thread derailments...
The main purpiose fo multiple melting point solders is, as was posted way back on page 1, for things like soldering details to brass models. Two small details next to each other, VERY easy to dislodge one while solderign the other, so each subsequent layer of detail uses a lower melting point solder so that it will be harder to accidently unstick something next to the new piece you are adding.
At least in model railroad electronics and wiring, we generally do not need to worry about this stuff, and 60/40 or 63/37 solder are fine. With proper soldering techniques (like keepign the tip clean and tinned), you don;t have to worry about melting ties or delaminating circuit boards. Building brass models, or assembling metal kits like the old Suydam buildings - slightly different story, although now we have glues and adhesives that can do the job as well.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
This has gotten weird.....but just to reiterate....I COULD use a combination of solder and iron where the solder went off at 300 degrees, and the iron got to about 350-400 degrees. There are/have been many times when that set up would work FOR ME. Have a good day
NeO6874For example, if it takes 10 seconds for a 350 degree iron to heat a trace to 350 degrees, with a substrate that melts at 150, there are 5+ seconds for that substrate to melt. If you have a 700 degree iron that also takes 10 seconds to heat the part to 700 degrees, it takes less than 5 seconds to hit your 300 degree solder-melting temperature, meaning that you're in and out before the substrate has time to melt much.
Or to restate this in terms that a LION can understand.
If you want a rare wildebeest you could cook it for 5 minutes on a 200 degree grill. It might work but LION would not like it.
Or you could take your wildebeest and cook it for 10 SECONDS on an 800 degree grill. TASTY! Purrfect!
Time on Target is the key to this solution.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
kenny dorham You are talking 5-10 seconds. I am talking 500 mS. You will just have to trust me.....we are discussing 2 different types of Construction/Soldering.
You are talking 5-10 seconds.
I am talking 500 mS. You will just have to trust me.....we are discussing 2 different types of Construction/Soldering.
I saw no indication of timeframe in your posts... Furthermore, the key phrase "for example" that I used should have allowed you to infer I was making up numbers for discussion.
In my experience, unless the other party in a discussion has a technical background, it's more helpful to use terms and scales that they're familiar with, even if it means that the description is flawed (due to mental conversions, altered timescales, etc).
... that is, of course until some "expert" chimes in and nitpicks the bits that were glossed over so that joe public could understand the concept. For example:
Joe Public - "[Part] is really important in [system] because it tells the operator ... "Simplified Resp - "No, [system] is fail safe. Even if [part] was removed, [system] would still operate the same way..."
"Expert" Resp - "(directed at the simplified response) You have no idea what you're talking about! I use [features] included in [part] all the time! It's super important because ..."
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
Dan:
I was thinking exactly what you said about getting up to temperature faster with a hotter iron, but not being an expert on the subject I decided to not shoot my mouth off in case I was wrong. I have done that twice recently on the DCC/Electronics forum much to my embarassment.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
hon30critter kenny: I understand your point. Less risk of overheating a trace or whatever with a cooler iron. Dave
kenny:
I understand your point. Less risk of overheating a trace or whatever with a cooler iron.
But at the expense of needing more time to get the part to 300 degrees, which in turn means that the substrate has more time to melt.
For example, if it takes 10 seconds for a 350 degree iron to heat a trace to 350 degrees, with a substrate that melts at 150, there are 5+ seconds for that substrate to melt.
If you have a 700 degree iron that also takes 10 seconds to heat the part to 700 degrees, it takes less than 5 seconds to hit your 300 degree solder-melting temperature, meaning that you're in and out before the substrate has time to melt much.
It's kind of like lighting a new candle -- the flame is really hot (~1400C), but if it goes out in a few seconds, the wax pool is very small (or non-existant), as it didn't meet it's melting point of a mere 37C...
I understand what you are saying.....but for me, that Would Be the whole point of using 300 degree solder. 60/40 or 63/37 does not take any longer to go off than the solder of topic. As soon as it hits a 700 degree tip...it is flowing. That would be the advantage (for me) of using 300 degree solder. I would only use it on wafer thin traces, and other fragile types.....things that I am leery of getting on with 700 degrees.....they heat to souce almost as soon as they see the iron coming. If I could have a 350 degree iron, and still melt the solder, it would save me half the heat...and make certain jobs a lot less nerve racking.
I have a couple friends with some pretty cool "digital" irons and rework stations. I should buy some of that stuff and see what happens. I suppose that is the only way to know. Thanks for the tip on that solder. I appreciate it.
I don't think you necessarily need a soldering iron that will operate at 300 degrees or less. The idea for the low melting point is that you can get in and get out quickly with a minimum of heat build up in the surrounding material. Sorry if that is too obvious a statement. A hotter iron, within reason, will work fine as long as you don't hang around with the iron on the work.
By the way, I have used the TIX solder and it works as advertized. I don't use it for electrical stuff (no reason why you can't). I use it when assembling the shells of my brass critters.
For finer electrical work I use Kester Electronic Silver Solder. It melts pretty quick and the tube seems to last forever. I get it through Ngineering.
http://www.ngineering.com/soldering.htm
Scroll down a bit.
Aluminum wiring was also a major factor in the short life of the UP U50Cs.
And you can see why that steel Bachmann, Life Like, and Tyco track was so horrible, even compared to brass. 1/10th the conductivity, depending on the composition. And why aluminum was short-lived as a replacement for copper house wiring.
kenny dorham I have the patience of a 2 year old.....do they talk about That Solder somewhere in there.? I see them using it for joining metals.....is it conductive.?
I have the patience of a 2 year old.....do they talk about That Solder somewhere in there.?
I see them using it for joining metals.....is it conductive.?
All metals are conductive, to varying degrees. Thing is, solder is more a mechanical connector than an electrical one (yes, in some instances it does a bit of both, but its primary purpose is "keep these two parts attached")
Silver (according to Wikipedia) is ever so slightly more conductive than Copper, and it's far more conductive than lead or tin.
Quick chart I found online
NeO6874 kenny dorham I am sure there is a Pot Of Gold waiting for the guy (or gal) that designs a good quality solder with a melting point of 300 degrees. Ask and ye shall receive Works well, and melts at ~300 degrees, but is more "specialty" than anything (due to amount / price) . Plain 0.062 solder from RS (Lead-bearing or not) will work for most everything we typically run into though.
kenny dorham I am sure there is a Pot Of Gold waiting for the guy (or gal) that designs a good quality solder with a melting point of 300 degrees.
I am sure there is a Pot Of Gold waiting for the guy (or gal) that designs a good quality solder with a melting point of 300 degrees.
My next problem would be getting an iron that hit as low as 300-350 degrees.
I guess I need more tools...
LION just googled information on the melting point of plastics. Most of those melting points were for injection molding of plastic and not for the destruction of railroad ties. Your best practice would be to learn proper soldering to thracks so that your iron is on the rail long enough to melt the solder but not to sistort the tie. Depending on the plastic used the melting points might be similar. A heat sink is a good idea, but that will cool the rail you are trying to solder. But it will draw heat away from the plastic ties.
LION has gotten pretty good at soldering rails without damaging ties, so yes, it can be done.
On the other Paw... LION really does not care if ties melt a little bit. Ain't nobody going to notice that anyway. And besides, have you ever seen damaged ties on a railroad? As long as the gauge remains correct (enough for the trains to pass) you should be ok. If it is perfection you want, then you are clearly NOT a LION.
I use the high temp dual temp Weller for heavy soldering like on the main buss wires where Im joining a 12 guage strand to strand wire. I use the dual powered pencil tip from canadian tire ( yes I'm Canadian ) for doing all other rail feeder wires etc. http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/mastercraft-solder-station-0586301p.html#.VC5z4m8g95g
Lynn
Present Layout progress
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/p/290127/3372174.aspx#3372174
BATMAN kenny dorham But I have a feeling you are looking for much lower melting points.? The way I see it is, if you had solder with a low melting point, wouldn't it make it easier to solder track without melting ties?
kenny dorham But I have a feeling you are looking for much lower melting points.?
The way I see it is, if you had solder with a low melting point, wouldn't it make it easier to solder track without melting ties?
I hear you...it would be "good" for all kinds of situ.
Soldering tiny PCB, with razor thin traces that lift at the mere sight of an iron.
I guess the trick is to find "stuff" that melts at "low" temperatures...conducts electrons, and is not itself at risk of failing/softening if placed in a Warm/Hot environment.
I always hate having to desolder ROHS solder on a thin PCB. Some of these modern day builds just a bout require a special desolder staion to do the rework. I wish I had one.
Hobbys are Cheap, Fun, and Easy .....
Other benfit to a grounded iron is that is dissipates electrostatic charges so you don't zap a component you are trying to solder. Not a problem with most of the larger things we work on, but possibly a decoder, or if you build signal circuits or other electronic circuits and solder directly to components instead of using sockets, it's not a bad feature to have.
Since I suspect it will soon be tough to get lead solder without special permits, I picked up a couple of large spools of it. Old soder should be fine - just make sure it is not acid core, commonly used for plumbing. It's ok in places you can wash the part after soldering, like a loco boiler, or where electricity is not flowing through the joint, again, like a loco boiler, but electricty and resdual acid flux will quickly corrode a joint. You want only rosin core solder for electrical work. The other possible issue is, old solder may be a fairly large diameter - for big joints like a feeder wire to a buis, no problem, but when working with tiny decoder wires and small parts - you want some of the thinner solder. Mine's .015, but I also have some .062 to work on the big joints (the ones I usually solder with the big soldering gun). A 1 pound spool of .015 solder is a) to heavy to work with directly and B) too messy to work with directly. What I use is the little plastic tube with cap that came witht he Fast Tracks turnout kit I bought, and just refill it as needed. It's small, light, easy to hold, and the small hole in the lid to feed the solder through keeps it pretty steady
Phoebe VetIs there a prayer for protecting the circuit components when you do that?
Not needed. LIONS use NAILS for binding posts, and big clunky relays that go CLICK if not THUNK when you pull them. LIONS do not go for that fragile fancy stuff.
BATMAN Here's my next question. I still have lots of spools of solder left over from dear old Dad. Can you get dfferent solders that melt at different temperatures?
Here's my next question. I still have lots of spools of solder left over from dear old Dad. Can you get dfferent solders that melt at different temperatures?
Not sure which way you want to go...the ROHS stuff is lead free, and needs More Heat before it goes off.
But I have a feeling you are looking for much lower melting points.?
Yep, though most all the Radioshack (or similar) electronics solders will melt at roughly the same (low) temperature (check the spool though).
In order to get higher melt temps, you might have to buy new spools (or sticks, as the case may be) from Micromark, or other supplier.
Edit -- although, unless you're scratchbuilding something with several solder joints in close proximity, using all "low temp" solder is probably fine for a project.
Handlaid turnout on PCB ties -> lowtemp solder is probably fine for the whole thing (there's enough distance that if you're melting off rail -> PCB tie joints when trying to attach feeders, you're using too much heat / too big of an iron).
Scratchbuilt locomotive -> high temp solder for the main body stuff (e.g. boiler, cab, etc), medium for "large" detail (domes, detail part sub-assemblies, or bigger detail parts, like the air tanks), and then low for attaching the fine detail parts (hoses/pipes/handrails/etc).
Even in the Navy, I never have, and probably never will, soldered an energized circuit.
Is there a prayer for protecting the circuit components when you do that?
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
hon30critterSome of the reviews are negative but I would certainly give it full marks for the price.
Yes there is an issue with my soldering iron. When I used the el-cheapos, the tip was electronically isolated, and I could solder on energised circuits. With the soldering station the tip is grounded. It will shor out any enrgized circuit that I apply it to. I did not expect that. I must always remember to shutdown the power before working on the circuits.
That is probably the way things are *supposed* to be done, but I am used to soldering on energised circuits.
BATMAN Randy, I am assuming that for track a high temp is best, so you are in and out as fast as possible and for soldering fine decoder wires a lower temp is all that is needed?
Randy, I am assuming that for track a high temp is best, so you are in and out as fast as possible and for soldering fine decoder wires a lower temp is all that is needed?
Typically, yes. The larger the items being soldered, the more heat you nned to keep it from all bleeding away. In practice I don;t fiddle with it too much, except when I know it will be a while before I am ready to solder the next bunch of connections, I will turn it all the way down (as opposed to off - it only takes a few seconds to get back up to temperature from the lowest to the middle setting, vs a couple of minutes from cold power off). This helps keep the tip clean as well. And the other benefit - on the lowest setting it will shrink heat shrink tube without melting it. As in, I can make direct contact with the tip to shrink it, and unless I hold it there for an extended period of time, it just shrinks, it doesn;t melt and make a sticky mess all over the tip. Have to be smart about it, if you just turned it down, it takes a while to cool down, but once running at the lower setting, shrink away. Easier than trying to use a heat gun on a decoder.
I got one of these from Maker Shed a couple of years ago and I am quite happy with it.
http://www.makershed.com/products/variable-temperature-soldering-station-5-40-watt
It takes a bit of time to heat up but that isn't any big deal. I only use it for decoder/LED work. It comes with a variety of tips. (EDIT: Other tips are now sold separately). I have only used the pencil tip and after two years it is showing no signs of wear.
Some of the reviews are negative but I would certainly give it full marks for the price.