What if you have older locomotives without sound decoders and you don't want to spend the money to convert them?
What are some good alternatives and substitutes for DCC sound that are adequate?
I don't recall what it's called, but MRC used to make a DC controller with built-in sound effects that could be connected to speakers under the layout. Check their web site to see if they have anything comparable currently available.
Without using at least a dual-mode sound decoder, your options are going to be rather limited.
I know that both MRC and Soundtraxx *used* to market sound systems. I'm not sure about the MRC, but the old Soundtraxx system was actually a "sound and throttle" system with a wireless (IR) remote.
You might try that auction site to see if one of those older systems are available there.
Just did some checking. Here's a link to the wayback machine's capture of the Soundtraxx product page. Soundtraxx doesn't list it on their current Web site, not even under "discontinued products".
Edit: Corrected spelling.
I was just thinking that with some electronics knowledge, a memory chip of some kind could be loaded with sounds and accessed externally.
Not sure how it would be done, but it's just a vague idea.
Any electronics experts here?
I have some knowledge and know how to solder.
In that case, just Google "sound recorder projects". You'll get lots of hits.
The old Soundtraxx system has been replaced by the SurroundTraxx system:
http://www.soundtraxx.com/surround/
Problem is it's designed to work with DCC so won't help the OP.
A dual mode decoder designed to operate on DC is your best bet here. You'll probably find the results from other measures insufficiently satisfying versus dollars spent, if you're comparing them to the results from DCC.
One thing I used to do that was cheap was to buy or make background noise tapes with the occassional train sounds in the mix. This kind of sets the mood to run trains cheaply. Green Frog used to sell cassettes of these, but don't know what's available now. All you needed was a cheap boom box and you're in business.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Big Boy Forever,
This is what MRC offers for DC layouts who would like sound. Click on link:
http://www.modelrectifier.com/train-controls/sound-systems.asp
Frank
Soundtraxx actually made a DC sound throttle in the 1990s. they made 2 different models , asteam and a diesel. I have 2 of the diesel units A D 220 IR.
It was a 2 amp DC throttle with a wireless handheld infrared remote. You could send a signal through the track to a speaker in a locomotive and there was an external audio connection to speakers. Buttons on the remote allowed you to program such thins as type of engine. Early and late EMD,GE,Alco,FM,Baldwin. Industrial Switcher and Railbus. Other programmable effects were exhaust turbo, throttle notching, momentum ,air horn up to 5 chime with a good choice of notes. There was a bell and an optional air compressor pop valve.I just use external speakers you could MU the external speakers throgh audio cords but you could not MU the DC throttles so you only had 2 amps to the track power. The throttle had an 8 notch speed control. The first one I bought from Soundtraxx at the Amherst Railway show ,somewhere around 200.00.A couple of years back I bought one online used for 50.00. I think they are fun although I use my Controlmaster 20s more often due to all the high amp Hobbytowns I run.
Ron High
Big Boy ForeverWhat if you have older locomotives without sound decoders and you don't want to spend the money to convert them? What are some good alternatives and substitutes for DCC sound that are adequate?
I saw a PBL-2 with two wireless throttles go for $300 they other day on eBay.
I'm guessing your best bet is to round up one of the old MRC Sound and Power, MRC Symphony 77, or MRC Sound Station 312.
Big Boy Forever I was just thinking that with some electronics knowledge, a memory chip of some kind could be loaded with sounds and accessed externally. Not sure how it would be done, but it's just a vague idea. Any electronics experts here? I have some knowledge and know how to solder.
You are going to have to become your own electronics expert to come up with a home brew system. DCC (and its few command control competitors) has the almost all the engineering/experimenting with sound currently going on in the hobby.
From a black box perspective, and going with the assumption of analog DC motor control and on-board speakers:
1) Generate sound external and send the audio signal through the rails along with the analog DC. Issue becomes separating the two signals inside the locomotive. Herb Chaudiere pioneered a lot of work with this scheme. April or May 1966 Model Railroader had detailed explanations of what he was doing. The PFM sound system was a very good refinement of this scheme. The primary drawback is that the filter to separate DC and audio will pass as audio (heard as static and noise) almost all forms of pulsed DC power. In most cases, the throttle ends up providing straight DC to the motor to prevent pulses getting into the audio.
2) Generate sound internally, and control the sound with a signal super-imposed on the DC power. This requires an on-board audio processor and/or extensive memory with a memory controller, and an on-board audio amp to drive the speaker. There must also be some sort of filter or processor to separate the audio control signal from the DC power.
For the #2 solution, the engineering of the necessary functions into a very small physical format has already been done for you in DCC (or the various R/C systems). You are not likely to do better cost, space, or performance-wise with a home brew.
Both #1 and #2 require some sort of filter to separate audio control or audio signal from the motor power, which means isolating at least one leg of the motor wiring. Since you have to rewire your motor anyway, and install other components, why not use existing well-developed technologies?
3) As others have suggested, completely separate audio from DC power. Use an under-the-layout speaker system, with a separate audio generator/processor/memory controller/amplifier. Audio can be as simple or as elaborate as you like, since it is totally separate from your motor control. No modification to your engines required.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
fwright Big Boy Forever I was just thinking that with some electronics knowledge, a memory chip of some kind could be loaded with sounds and accessed externally. Not sure how it would be done, but it's just a vague idea. Any electronics experts here? I have some knowledge and know how to solder. You are going to have to become your own electronics expert to come up with a home brew system. DCC (and its few command control competitors) has the almost all the engineering/experimenting with sound currently going on in the hobby. From a black box perspective, and going with the assumption of analog DC motor control and on-board speakers: 1) Generate sound external and send the audio signal through the rails along with the analog DC. Issue becomes separating the two signals inside the locomotive. Herb Chaudiere pioneered a lot of work with this scheme. April or May 1966 Model Railroader had detailed explanations of what he was doing. The PFM sound system was a very good refinement of this scheme. The primary drawback is that the filter to separate DC and audio will pass as audio (heard as static and noise) almost all forms of pulsed DC power. In most cases, the throttle ends up providing straight DC to the motor to prevent pulses getting into the audio. 2) Generate sound internally, and control the sound with a signal super-imposed on the DC power. This requires an on-board audio processor and/or extensive memory with a memory controller, and an on-board audio amp to drive the speaker. There must also be some sort of filter or processor to separate the audio control signal from the DC power. For the #2 solution, the engineering of the necessary functions into a very small physical format has already been done for you in DCC (or the various R/C systems). You are not likely to do better cost, space, or performance-wise with a home brew. Both #1 and #2 require some sort of filter to separate audio control or audio signal from the motor power, which means isolating at least one leg of the motor wiring. Since you have to rewire your motor anyway, and install other components, why not use existing well-developed technologies? 3) As others have suggested, completely separate audio from DC power. Use an under-the-layout speaker system, with a separate audio generator/processor/memory controller/amplifier. Audio can be as simple or as elaborate as you like, since it is totally separate from your motor control. No modification to your engines required. my thoughts, your choices Fred W
The problem is that I have Athearn BB and older Bachman Spectrum Locos.
Conversions to sound decoders are about $100 each, not including motor decoders.
Big Boy Forever The problem is that I have Athearn BB and older Bachman Spectrum Locos. Conversions to sound decoders are about $100 each, not including motor decoders.
A top end combined motor and sound decoder costs about $100. There are considerably less expensive available (Digitrax for example). Unless you have previous experience to substitute, bread-boarding and testing, then preparing a tiny example to fit into your locomotives is not going to be simple, cheap, or quick. Researching components, then ordering them (and keeping shipping costs reasonable) is going to cost a few dollars. More, if your first experiment doesn't work as well as you would like. OTOH, if you enjoy electronic circuit work, go for it. It's a hobby, after all.
I still build my own desktop computers from parts. But I don't pretend that they cost less than an off-the-shelf computer. It's just that I control the quality and performance by my component selection. And I enjoy the building process - which is much simpler now than it used to be twenty years ago.
All modern combined sound and motor DCC decoders will operate in DC mode with very limited control of the sound (and control of the locomotive limited to the higher range of your DC power pack). So you can put decoders in the locomotives and still use them without buying a DCC control unit right away.
This is from a guy who dabbles in electronics and uses DC at home, and DCC at the modular club. I built some sound circuits decades ago based on Chaudiere's article. I personally would not attempt to engineer and build my own on-board sound system, when DCC manufacturers have done all the work for me, and put it in a package small enough to fit in an HOn3 4-4-0, for $100 or less.
What I am willing to do is put in my own system for under-the-table sound, since I don't have to worry about space constraints, and I can get speakers with real bass sound. Then I can use the space in the locomotive for weight for traction and/or flywheels for improved performance.
again my thoughts, your choices
fwright Big Boy Forever The problem is that I have Athearn BB and older Bachman Spectrum Locos. Conversions to sound decoders are about $100 each, not including motor decoders. A top end combined motor and sound decoder costs about $100. There are considerably less expensive available (Digitrax for example). Unless you have previous experience to substitute, bread-boarding and testing, then preparing a tiny example to fit into your locomotives is not going to be simple, cheap, or quick. Researching components, then ordering them (and keeping shipping costs reasonable) is going to cost a few dollars. More, if your first experiment doesn't work as well as you would like. OTOH, if you enjoy electronic circuit work, go for it. It's a hobby, after all. I still build my own desktop computers from parts. But I don't pretend that they cost less than an off-the-shelf computer. It's just that I control the quality and performance by my component selection. And I enjoy the building process - which is much simpler now than it used to be twenty years ago. All modern combined sound and motor DCC decoders will operate in DC mode with very limited control of the sound (and control of the locomotive limited to the higher range of your DC power pack). So you can put decoders in the locomotives and still use them without buying a DCC control unit right away. This is from a guy who dabbles in electronics and uses DC at home, and DCC at the modular club. I built some sound circuits decades ago based on Chaudiere's article. I personally would not attempt to engineer and build my own on-board sound system, when DCC manufacturers have done all the work for me, and put it in a package small enough to fit in an HOn3 4-4-0, for $100 or less. What I am willing to do is put in my own system for under-the-table sound, since I don't have to worry about space constraints, and I can get speakers with real bass sound. Then I can use the space in the locomotive for weight for traction and/or flywheels for improved performance. again my thoughts, your choices Fred W
What's your suggestion for "Under the Table Sound"?
One of the members of my club uses an amplifier speaker connected to a dc controller, independent of the track power. I'll have to ask him exacly how it works (we have an operation session next week so I will be able to post more detail later). This produces diesel sounds.
Big Boy Forever What's your suggestion for "Under the Table Sound"?
fwright You are going to have to become your own electronics expert to come up with a home brew system. DCC (and its few command control competitors) has the almost all the engineering/experimenting with sound currently going on in the hobby. From a black box perspective, and going with the assumption of analog DC motor control and on-board speakers: 1) Generate sound external and send the audio signal through the rails along with the analog DC. Issue becomes separating the two signals inside the locomotive. Herb Chaudiere pioneered a lot of work with this scheme. April or May 1966 Model Railroader had detailed explanations of what he was doing. The PFM sound system was a very good refinement of this scheme. The primary drawback is that the filter to separate DC and audio will pass as audio (heard as static and noise) almost all forms of pulsed DC power. In most cases, the throttle ends up providing straight DC to the motor to prevent pulses getting into the audio. 2) Generate sound internally, and control the sound with a signal super-imposed on the DC power. This requires an on-board audio processor and/or extensive memory with a memory controller, and an on-board audio amp to drive the speaker. There must also be some sort of filter or processor to separate the audio control signal from the DC power. For the #2 solution, the engineering of the necessary functions into a very small physical format has already been done for you in DCC (or the various R/C systems). You are not likely to do better cost, space, or performance-wise with a home brew. Both #1 and #2 require some sort of filter to separate audio control or audio signal from the motor power, which means isolating at least one leg of the motor wiring. Since you have to rewire your motor anyway, and install other components, why not use existing well-developed technologies? 3) As others have suggested, completely separate audio from DC power. Use an under-the-layout speaker system, with a separate audio generator/processor/memory controller/amplifier. Audio can be as simple or as elaborate as you like, since it is totally separate from your motor control. No modification to your engines required. my thoughts, your choices Fred W
This is a nice response. Are you by chance an electrical or machanical engineer?
That is simply from a model railroader with experience.
I have seen similar discussions over the years about sound on a model railroad. Electronics on board or under the layout with amplifiers and digital recorders, sound modules, etc. Quite a lot of DIY. Generaly you need more than, “Some Knowledge”.
Googleing will bring up a lot of material about sound on a DC controlled layout.
PFM had a system many years ago. Did require a speaker in the loco. No electronics on board. Google PFM. I have heard it in operation and even then, clean track and pickups. A friend use to use it in the 1980's.
Google should be your best friend.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Well, not exactly "no" electronics on-board, it did use a filter capacitor since the DC component of the track power would destroy the speaker. The optional tape loops for it allowed some of the sounds to be actual recordings from the real locomotives instead of just synthesized sound, so in that respoect it was ahead of its time. You also had full control over the chuff strength and cutoff. The whistle was an actual analog control, allowing you to 'play' it.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.