Hi guys! I'm a newbie to the model railroading scene, I have constructed a basic 4x8 layout for my son and I am in the process of trying to make it operational, just not sure how all the wiring works, I have read alot and looked at videos online, but everyone does it differently, or has their method, I end up getting confused.
If you could look at the link, it has some pictures, two inparticular on the track plan and idea for wiring. Not sure how many feeders I need, and how to run the bus wire.
Using Atlas code 83 track (some flex, some sectional), NCE PowerCab, 18g wire for BUS, 20g wire for Feeders.
Guy at hooby shop recommended I use a PBD-1 to run my BUS lines
any thoughts? locations for track feeders?
thanks
https://www.flickr.com/photos/113749345@N07/
It is highly advised that you attach feeders to every section of track, and every turnout. If you look at the Virginan project layout (a 4x8), they have a plan showing the feeders. Under the video section on the MRR website, there are several videos showing different ways/places to attach the feeders to the rails.
When I tried to look at your link I got a message that says chazzy142 does not have anything available for me. And what is a PBD-1? Some sort of terminal strip?
This is the PDB-1 from Miniatronics, basically a pair of terminal strips. There's also a PDB-2 which has 24 per side.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Nothing at link yet, will check back.
What is the PBD-1? I'm not familiar with that. [OK, that Q is answered]
In any case, you can simply run 18 gauge from the PowerCab output to serve as a bus. There's no need for anything extra really, especially on a 4x8.
20 gauge for longer feeders is OK, but you can probably get by with the more common 22 gauge.
Yes, feeders should go to every section of track. However, so long as track is soldered together, there's no need for extra feeders beyond one pair to that particiular section on a 4x8 (but longer sections of track may need more than one set.) The point is to not rely solely on railjoiners, but to instead solder them so they make a good, reliable connection and feed it with soldered-on wire feeders.
Not to shake you up, but you didn't mention gaps. They're oftentimes more confusing that feeders. The main thing is that you need gaps wherever it's possible to put two different polarities on the same rail. One example would be when the turnouts at either end of a siding are set differently, as opposing currents would be sent down the same rail. Another example is a return loop. Hope this helps. Will look for your graphics later.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
thanks for the feedback, I think I fixed the problem with the pictures, a settings issue, not so familiar with that website. I don't have any gaps or insulated sections, all the track has rail joiners on them, either soldered or just connected without solder (for expansion purposes?)
**have two pictures on link that show layout plan and my idea for wiring, but again not exactly sure where to place the feeders on the layout for best operation.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/113749345@N07/
i will check out that 4x8 virginian track plan and look at some of the videos MRR
One of the lessons in the videos is to never relay on track joiners even when soldered to carry electrical current. For reliable track, attach feeder wires to every track section. Don't take shortcuts when it comes to building things, it will always come back to get you. Good quality work is always required to get a good quality product.
KyleOne of the lessons in the videos is to never relay on track joiners even when soldered to carry electrical current.
Kyle,
While that's good advice, it's also one of those rules waiting to be broken. There's little sense in attaching a set of feeders to a 6" long section between a couple of turnouts. Solder it to one one turnout and gap it at the other as needed. Soldered rail is about as good a conductor as you can get. True, if flexed enough to break, well, it's broken, but so would be a feeder.
I'm not saying to not make that your own standard. For me, it's more of an ideal goal. No you don't want a dozen pieces of track and trackwork all soldered to gether so it can be fed from one point. On the other hand, careful breaking of the rule saves time, materials and complication. Generally, what I try to do is to have a feeder every three feet or the length of a stick of flex track. If I had some sectional track, I wouldn't feed every 9" piece, I'd solder it in groups or four or so and feed that, for instance.
One place where you don't want to break the rule, though, is with hidden or hard to reach track. That's when strictly adhering to the rule is worth the extra trouble.
JRL140Using Atlas code 83 track (some flex, some sectional), NCE PowerCab, 18g wire for BUS, 20g wire for Feeders. Guy at hooby shop recommended I use a PBD-1 to run my BUS lines
I'm not sure where the recommendation to use the PBD-1 comes from. The NCE PowerCab manual suggests that for bus runs up to 25 feet #18 wire should be adequate. If you ran your bus wires around the periphery of the 4 X 8, the maximum distance would be 24 feet. So you should be okay. If it is possible that you might add an extension, you might want to consider #16 wire to be conservative. But when you run the bus wires, you can actually tap off these lines with your feeders to the track. (I tap off the feeders to a terminal strip, and from there to the track. But that's another subject.)
To use that PBD-1 thing, you are going to connect from the PowerCab to the PBD-1. Then from the PBD you'll run bus wires to the general location where you want a feeder, and then connect to a smaller wire to the track. If you can visualize this you'll see that you end up with a bunch of somewhat parallel bus pairs overlapping each other. This seems to be uneconomical and also result in unnecessary wiiring clutter.
JRL,
OK, you need to figure out your gaps here. Because gaps define sections of track that need to be fed separately for whatever reason.
The first thing to do is to figure how gaps work around a turnout and why. That way you can choose how to do it to suit your needs, as there is some flexibility here. But you have to avoid mismatched electricity from coming together.
The first example to look at is the stub-end yard at the top. The turnout off the main will need gaps in the two rails diverging from the frog. The turnouts in the yard need one between every frog on the left side where the rails diverge, but no gaps are needed in the right side rail.
If this all makes sense and you can draw a pic to show where you think the gaps are to satisfy yourself, good. or you can post it so we can check what you have diagrammed.
After that, the feeders will be easy. You'll need at least one pair for every section of rail separated by a gap. Depended on how many pieces of track you have and whether you want to solder rail joiners or not (see other comments for discussion on that), you may have more than one set of feeders.
Not all feeders are in pairs, but you need enough so very rail gets access to electricity.
Once we get this gaps and feeders thing for the stub yard, then we can move on to more complex questions. Others are free to jump in with their own suggestions, but I thought it might be a good idea to stay in the shallow end of the pool until we get this gaps thing down cold, as it's something you just found out about and are probably still disgesting it.
mlehmanThe turnout off the main will need gaps in the two rails diverging from the frog. The turnouts in the yard need one between every frog on the left side where the rails diverge, but no gaps are needed in the right side rail.
The track plan indicates that Atlas turnouts will be used. Are these gaps necessary if he uses the Atlas items?
Good question. Last time I was up close and persoanl with anything trackwise from Atlas was about 1974. I think it depends on which Atlas turnouts? The #4s just say NOT SnapTrack, while the #6s say CustomLine.
But I think they're both CustomLine? Which says it has a blackened metal frog. Doesn't say anything about gaps, power-routing or the somewhat deceptive "DCC friendly" so my guess is that he will need gaps.
Can some more familiar with Atlas track confirm?
BTW, when we say "gaps" this could also include use of an insulated rail joiner, for instance to gap a turnout on the two legs of the frog. You don't really have to cut very many gaps if you work things right, just use the insulated rail joiners judiciously.
If you are running a bus wire under the track, then you might as well take a minute or two to run the feeder wires up to that 6 inch section of track than risk having tons of headaches over electrical reliability. If you do decide to add feeders later if you didn't in the first place, you'll have to work around scenery and you have to pull everything back up, and clean up again.
The Atlas HO code 83 Custom-Line turnouts are constructed so that regardless of the switch point setting, both branches are powered. Due to this design, The metal frog is insulated and carries no current.
Frank
The way I view the OP's track plan is quite simple to wire. It is only a 4x8, so break it up into 3 power districts, 1 being his double loop, his industrys in the center and his proposed add on at the top. That looks to me that will be the only places he will need to insulate both rails to accomplish that, with a simple SPDT on off switch to isolate the districts. It will also be much easier to find a trouble spot that way, to find out what is causing the problem. The KISS principle.
Take Care,
Unless power shutoffs are wnted, there is no need to gap anything. There are no reverse loops or wyes. Modern Atlas turnouts are all power through, not power routed. In fact, most of mine have feeders on all three legs, seems to make them highly reliable - I attached wires to power the frogs but never ended up connecting any of them because even my smallest loco creeps through without stalling.
rrinker Unless power shutoffs are wnted, there is no need to gap anything.
Randy,
Thanks, that makes things easy and will surely put JRL's mind at ease. The advice about feeding them will also serve well.
thanks everyone for the feedback!!! really appreciate the input!
Based on some of the responses, I don't think I want to venture down creating seperate power districts! Not sure if I need to gap anything, I put pictures (off my link) of the atlas turnouts and a picture of conceptually what Randy mentioned about putting power to the three areas around the frog (at least I think) on the turnout to have correct power. It looks like the atlas turnouts have insulated frogs? and the crossing as well is insulated?
I also put another picture of the track plan with what I think is the polarity of each rail throughout the layout and would attach the appropriate feeders accordingly.
Replies seem in agreement, one BUS wire circling the layout can feed the layout, with feeders needed where applicable to create good operation.
I checked out some of the videos and had the magazines for some of the Virginian layout work, since its a 4x8 and they also use the NCE powercab. Popp uses 3M suticase connectors, is that advisable, since I shouldn't have that many feeders as well?
Also, Kyle, don't have an active subscription to the magazine, so can't access the track plan in the database, its a MR extra, you mentioned the plan shows the place he put track feeders along the layout? do you have a copy of it?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/113749345@N07/ pictures
see that you are from Reading, PA, are you going to visit the WGH tour in the Greater Philly area this month?
Here is the link to the PDF I was talking about: http://mrr.trains.com/-/media/Files/PDF/trackplans/2012/01/Virginian%20Ry.%20showing%20turnouts%20and%20feeder%20locations.pdf
Thanks Kyle,
that helps alot, so it seems my main point of contention would be feeding the yard and turnout areas well, the long runs seem to have less feeds, 3 ft. apart, mentioned.
JRL140,
You may also find this useful, for a go to resource for wiring:
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track.htm
rrinker Unless power shutoffs are wnted, there is no need to gap anything. There are no reverse loops or wyes. Modern Atlas turnouts are all power through, not power routed. In fact, most of mine have feeders on all three legs, seems to make them highly reliable - I attached wires to power the frogs but never ended up connecting any of them because even my smallest loco creeps through without stalling. --Randy
That pretty much says it all. As Randy said, there is no need to gap anything.
I am surprised that cuyama has not paid a visit to this thread. After all, he designed the track plan.
The advice on this thread makes it appear that the OP is designing a club layout. Terminal blocks, gaps, power districts, whatever. Geez, it is a 4x8 layout with no reversing sections, no power routing turnouts, no live frogs.
A pair of bus wires and feeder wires on every end of every turnout.
That's it.
Rich
Alton Junction
And the DC guys always laugh at how complex it gets. Keep it simple. No reason to be complex here.
rrinker And the DC guys always laugh at how complex it gets. Keep it simple. No reason to be complex here. --Randy
Yeah, that's the thing about DCC. It eliminates the need for block wiring and gapping and then we send the OP off with his 4x8 layout and NCE Power Cab to set up power districts, terminal blocks, rail gaps, feeders everywhere, etc., etc, etc. Makes no sense.
Hey guys,
just checking back in for some advice, just wired up, what I thought was the correct way, after viewing many videos, reading articles, and following advice on this forum, but still seem to have issues with track power loss. Feel like I'm pretty smart in most respects, ha, but right now this wiring of track has me feeling like a bonafide idiot.
to review, I have a simple 4x8 layout- two ovals, two branches off the inside oval with a cross at a 25 degree, and a small yard. I ran 18G wire, one red, one black directly from my NCE powercab around the layout under the track, terminating wire just before it returns to the power location. from their ran feeders to two locations each on the oval track, and ran feeders on all sides of switches. some areas have power, others don't. not sure why?
i have a link to pictures on the previous posts that have the track layout. as far as polarity, have no reverse loops, and using atlas switch, which i believe are dcc friendly and insulated. red wire for outside of track, black wire for inside of track and just followed that motto.
1. could I have used the wrong solder? when soldering some of the rail joiners to connecting track. would that affect conductivity
2. do I not have enough of the feeder wire on the track rail? for a good electrical connection
3. not using the correct type of wire? using primary wire 18 g stranded for bus and 20g for feeders
is there a specific brand that works best for this application?
looking forward to some good feedback from others with more experience in modeling then me- thanks!
Take your picture you linked with the track diagram, and mark of fon it where you don;t have power. I'm going to guess you have tracks past an insulated joiner that does not have a feeder anywhere. If it's the same one you linked before, there are no reversing sections in there, it's pretty basic.
I don't have any insulated rail joiners, have all metal rail joiners on track, some are soldered and some are not. I have added some updated photos here of feeder locations, soldered feeder and rail, and bus wire. http://www.flickr.com/photos/113749345@N07/
did do the quarter test to all parts of the track, the areas that allowed the loco to run and the areas that didn't, every spot I put the quarter on shorted the nce powercab and the screen went blank and reset.
So does that mean all the track is powered?
Are all the feeders connected? The one pic shows a bunch of them there, and the one with the train on the track, there's one just ahead of the loco not connected.
If the quarter test passes everywhere, by just sitting the quarter on the rails, NOT pressing down, then the wiring should be good. If you put the quarter down somewhere and it shuts off, yet the loco won't run right at that very same spot, there's another issue. Maybe some dirty track, or the loco itself is a little balky.