Good Morning Everyone, I know that this topic has been discussed/argued numerous times in the past but I wanted to make up my mind as I proceed forward with the wiring of my layout. I want to to use connectors(no soldering please!!), the question is which is better.....Posi tap or Scotchlok? The Posi tap connectors have received good reviews but are pretty expensive...Thoughts?? Thanks and Happy New Year!!
I never use any of those. I use terminal strips and crimp-on spade terminals, so if a change in the wiring needs to be made or there is a problem with the wiring, it can easily be changed without having to cut and splice.
The crimp on terminals and terminal strips can be purchased in bulk from places such as All Electronics and are much cheaper that way than from a local supplier.
http://www.allelectronics.com/pdf/crimp.pdf
I have no experience with Posi-tap connectors, but I've used a large number of Scotchloks (generic knock-offs, actually). They work well IF you use either the crimping tool made for them, or a pair of parallel-jaw pliers.
Regular pliers, and even grooved ones (Channel-locks) don't work well because the jaws move at an angle to each other and don't press the Scotchlok's blade properly.
I use a geared Plierench: Open Closed
I have been researching the Positaps and can find nothing definitive on whether they will work with solid wire. All installation instructions available show stranded wire and instructions clearly state on larger "tapping" wires to spread the strands around the centre post.
I have been using the suitcase type connectors for too many years to mention and have found as long as you use the correct size for the wiring involved they do the job. I use them for auto applications (wiring trailer lights) so lots of vibration and have had no failures.
Well, you left the LION out in the cold when you specified "no soldering"
What is wrong with soldering. It is the BEST connector, and you would do well to master it.
LIONS do not spend money on connectors of any sort. LION cannot afford barrier strips or crimp connectors.
LION finds a soldering iro far easier to use than a screw driver (arthritis, you know)
With the number of connectors on the layout of the LION, NAILS are used as pinding posts, and I solder to these. It is neat, and fast, and cheap, and if your layouts tend to the size of BIG, then it is the only way it can be done.
WIRE is also expensive. Salvage as much of it as you can. LION will splice two pieces together rather han pull a new length off of the roll. LION discussed the matter with the people at the wholesale electrician's outlet, so if you need lots of wire, your BEST deal would be to buy 500' or 1000' of CAT-5 cable and strip out the pairs as you need them. You cannon beat the price of 8000' of wire for only $150.00. For the cables, LION uses 25 pair CAT-3 cable, and found a place on line where him could get the stuff for 68c a foot! Him bought 100 feet of that. Him also used about 100 feet of 67 conductor wire salvaged from a 1920s pipe organ. No rubber or plastic on that stuff, and all of the conductors were the same color, but as you can see in the photo above, they worked out well and saved the LION (and the zookeeper) a lot of money.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
I haven't used Posi-Tap, but have had very good luck with Scotchlok.
Rob Spangler
The hobby will teach you things, and will sometimes force you to learn things. You shouldn't be afraid of this. In fact, the learning process is one of the nicest surprises about model railroading.
Painting, plaster-casting, carpentry and wiring are all necessary parts of the hobby. Soldering is, too. It's not hard to master, and eventually you'll need it anyway.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
ScotchLok I use, but you must learn to solder because that is also needed at times. I is not hard at all. Doug
No experience with Posi-Tap. If going Scocth-Lock, go with the brand name and use the correct tool to crimp. They are very reliable -- once you've learned to carefully install them every time. Issues related to Scotch-Lock are almost wholly install-related when vibration is not a factor, which it shouldn't be unless your layout is in your motor home.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
There are two kinds of electrical connections on my double garage filler:
As a former aircraft maintainer and quality control inspector I consider ALL suitcse connectors to be dumpster filler.
IIRC, LION uses nails into a wood base as a substitute for terminal strips. I've done this in the past, but not lately.
When wiring, you have a choice. You can either use methods that will remain connected for the ages (or, at least, decades) or you can expect to spend time hunting down and fixing mystery open circuits when those snap-on and slide-in connections fail...
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with bulletproof electricals)
You will not find IDCs of any brand on my layout. I use terminal strips.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
tomikawaTTAs a former aircraft maintainer and quality control inspector I consider ALL suitcse connectors to be dumpster filler.
Chuck,
Perhaps I'll worry more about that next time I see a layout in line for take-off at O'hare...
I use very few IDCs, preferring the good ol' wire nut for most of my connections. For some reason, my layout still hasn't crashed and burned, although I suspect the wire nut is probably one step lower on your evolutionary scale than a Scotchlok.
DrJim55n I want to to use connectors(no soldering please!!), the question is which is better.....Posi tap or Scotchlok? The Posi tap connectors have received good reviews but are pretty expensive...Thoughts?? Thanks and Happy New Year!!
I want to to use connectors(no soldering please!!), the question is which is better.....Posi tap or Scotchlok? The Posi tap connectors have received good reviews but are pretty expensive...Thoughts?? Thanks and Happy New Year!!
A mechanical crimp and solder combination is the best. Terminals, wire nuts, straight solder, crimping and the Posi-taps are all excellent for MR applications. If you do not want to solder or crimp, then the Posi taps are the way to go. But you still have to solder to the rails or rail joiners.
Its like comparing Kato or Atlas to a Tyco. Tyco is cheaper but is it a good value? The pos-taps hold up to 4 feeders and are reuseable so that offsets the extra cost some what.
The IDCs are a funny thing, they are marketed toward automotive applications. However, no manufacturer recommends their use. All of our OEM remote start and alarm kits do not allow them.
Model railroads are not subjected to vibration, salt and large temperature swings but shock testing is a valid point. Tug on a IDC once or twice and see what happens.
A wiring buss would be the last place to use IDCs. Each time you install a IDC, it cuts a strand or two (but never the same ones) and by the time you get to the end of the buss, what size wire is left?
Jim
I used Scotchlok and had no problem. I second the 3M name brand as I first got some Ebay supposed "scotch-lok" named connectors that were not; i.e., they were not 3M, were different design (one tooth vs two) and the price was too good to be true. I got the real thing from Mouser or All Electronics, maybe each.
I didn't buy the official $75 or so pliers but got some prallel jaw pliers on sale at Sears fir about $25. I made an EBay mistake on those also, bought a pair there first but what arrived was curved jaw when I wanted straight.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
mlehman tomikawaTT As a former aircraft maintainer and quality control inspector I consider ALL suitcse connectors to be dumpster filler. Chuck, Perhaps I'll worry more about that next time I see a layout in line for take-off at O'hare... I use very few IDCs, preferring the good ol' wire nut for most of my connections. For some reason, my layout still hasn't crashed and burned, although I suspect the wire nut is probably one step lower on your evolutionary scale than a Scotchlok.
tomikawaTT As a former aircraft maintainer and quality control inspector I consider ALL suitcse connectors to be dumpster filler.
Howdy, Mike,
Actually, I do use wire nuts - inside UL approved boxes as part of my 120VAC power distribution system. Since the humidity here is such that corrosion doesn't happen, they should work fine.
My layout is under the flight pattern at Nellis (one reason that I live here) and low-flying aircraft frequently rattle the windows. Want to bet they DON'T shake the benchwork? (How much are you planning to lose?)
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - in a Clark County, NV, garage)
tomikawaTTMy layout is under the flight pattern at Nellis (one reason that I live here) and low-flying aircraft frequently rattle the windows. Want to bet they DON'T shake the benchwork? (How much are you planning to lose?)
Ok, I'll buy that as an excuse to need vibration resistant connectors. Having lived under the approach at Randolph AFB during the height of pilot training in the Vietnam War (at one point my Scoutmaster was in Link trainer maintenance and the Asst. Scoutmaster was in IPT working on being a pilot), I know that can remind you the sky isn't silent.
Of course, this thread is one of those exercises in overkill in model railroading, this time with wiring. I started off with terminal blocks, but quickly swicthed to wire nuts for most layout wiring purposes. These come in multiple useful sizes, are very reliable, cheap, and install easily. They also make changes and additions very easy. And they're pretty vibration resistant, too.
Here's another thread on suitcase connectors:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/202644.aspx
My sentiments exactly, its a model railroad. I use scotchlocks on boat trailers, water, vibration, dirt, alligators etc have no effect on the 3M brand. Some folks naturally over analyze and overbuild, no harm, no foul.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
What I want to see is HOW are you going to attach the drop wires to the Track
Scotch LOCKS ? ! ;-)
BOB H - Clarion, PA
cmrproducts What I want to see is HOW are you going to attach the drop wires to the Track Scotch LOCKS ? ! ;-) BOB H - Clarion, PA
Yeah, the wire nuts just didn't work for me in this application...
Seriously guys, just because you want to use a connector under the table to avoid soldering under there doesn't prevent you from being a model railroader. In fact, it's completely normal. Under the layout, it's wire nuts. On top, all the wires are soldered to rail. Easy to keep track of.
The ONLY thing I've ever soldered under the layout are the main feeder lugs that come off my bus. And that was a PITA.
I guess all those years building electronics projects makes soldering second nature to me. Our old train layouts, even though temporary for the holidays, always were soldered. And I just continued that as I built my own. In the DC days it was just one or two sets of feeders tied together to run back tot he block toggles, and some 3-conductor wire spliced in to extend the wires for snap-switches.
It's even easier for DCC, with a pair of decent Klein or Ideal strippers, I can nick-free strip a bare spot in the bus wire, snip off the isualtion on the end of a feeder wire, and wrap it tight around the bare spot of the bus. Few seconds with the soldering gun - 150 watt type, keep the low power unit on the bench for decoder wires, it's not usable here - and the wires are soldered on. I can't remember the last time I dropped a blob of solder on myself working under the layout - that happens when you apply the solder to the tip of the gun instead of the joint like you are supposed to. Plus it's easier these days - putting the layout up to reasonable viewing heights on the top means there's that much more room underneath as well. I can sit normally under mine, no wierd hunched over positions. Which also means, unless I try to reach for a connection, there generally aren't any body parts under the joint being soldered anyway.
If I were so inclined, I would only use the real 3M brand connectors, not the cheap knockoffs. But even for the relatively small layout I have now, the cost of the connectors and a proper set of pliers (even avoiding the official tool which is REALLY expensive) would exceed what I paid for a spool of solder and the soldering gun. Compounding the problem is the feeder solution I found, is about #22 wire, comes in two colors which match my bus wires - neither 3M nor the knockoffs have a connector which goes directly from my feeder to my bus, so I'd have to use TWO connectors at each feeder (and I have a lot of them - every turnout has 3 sets, for example) with short pigtails, connecting the bus to a smaller pigtail for which they have a connector that would work with my feeder wire. Talk about wasted time, effort, and money..
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Soldering is cheapest way to go. If you want ti use IDC's, use Scotchloks. Make sure they are sized properly for your line and tap wires. If not, don't try to double the wire, etc. to compensate. Solder works on all sizes. If it drips while soldering overhead, that's the extra wasted piece that wasn't needed. It only hurts for a little while.
Martin Myers
mlehmanSeriously guys, just because you want to use a connector under the table to avoid soldering under there doesn't prevent you from being a model railroader. In fact, it's completely normal. Under the layout, it's wire nuts.
The (only) advantage to the Scotch Locs is that it is insulation displacing: you can connect to your bus whire anytime, any place without problems. (Well LION had problems, but another story is that), LION solved problems by stripping all of the inuslation off of his bus wires before installing them. Clamp one end in a vice, take a knife to the insulation and it is GONE! A bus after all is *supposed* to be a bear wire to which you can connect anything.
Railroad of LION has three bus wires.
1) GROUND
2) +16 Volt Signal and Detetection power. (Also used for Aux Lighting)
and
3) 600 volt DC Third Rail power. (OK it is realy +10.2 volts for the track power)
Starboard Rail gets the Power, Port Rail connects to Ground.
Photos forthcoming.