wigmanI am shopping for the best DCC setup for my medium-sized personal layout. The layout is 27' x 8' and has a very long mainline and many switches and accessories. I want to get a radio controlled setup right off the bat. You opinions, please?
I want to get a radio controlled setup right off the bat.
You opinions, please?
1. As the others have said or alluded to there is no 1 best. There are many systems that will be best in your circumstance in certain ways and not best in others.
2. My first question is do you really want to run switches and accessories from the DCC system. my opinion this is a big waste of DCC power and an exercise in un-prototypical operations.
3. Talking about the radio portion only CVPs new system is the best. The NCE version 3.6 is second. I've loved the old CVP system in conjunction with the Lenz DCC and the Easy DCC. The Lenz wireless "telephone for a throttle" system sucks.
4. My 2nd DCC system was the Lenz I got in 1999? The company keeps it up to date with software upgrades for minimal (basically shipping) costs. It is just as good as if I bought a new one today.
5. You didn't say anything about a computer interface. It is easier on some systems than others.
6. I believe it was Randy who mentioned this above. I had to stop using the NCE wireless system at shows because there are so many other groups/people using them. All sorts of interference and problems controlling the trains. I take the LENZ with the CVP throttles.
Just so you know I currently own NCE Pro-R, Lenz System-100, Easy DCC, a Digitrax Zephyr, and two really old MRC systems. I belong to three different operating groups that use every system imaginable.
Digitrax has a utility that works with the UR92 to scan the various channels and find the one with the least traffic. If all of the choices are swamped, you must have some serious network geeks nearby, because a few of the channels Digitrax supports are not normally available to wireless routers and access points without hacking them.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
The frequencies allocated by the Federal Communications Commission for ground-based radio control devices, coupled with the restrictions on transmitter power allowed on those frequencies, restrict what manufacturers can do to eliminate interference.
jrbernier I fail to see where using a 'spectrum analyzer' is going to help resolve the problem. All it is going to allow is one to verify another source is flooding the frequency.
yes, it verifies what the problem is, rather than guessing.
and yes, i don't know how we can resolve this problem
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
gregci wonder about radio interference
I don't know exactly what causes it, but I have noticed that Digitrax radio reception can be hit or miss on medium sized to large layouts with a lot of throttles in use. On nearly every layout where I've run with Digitrax radio throttles, from coast to coast, I've had to plug in to re-acquire a signal from time to time. I have not experienced this with NCE or CVP (or systems using CVP radio throttles for wireless capability like Lenz). This issue was a major factor in my decision not to go with Digitrax. That being said, I have encountered satisfied Digitrax users who claim never to have experienced the problem.
*EDIT* The above is much less noticeable on newer Digitrax radio throttles with duplex capability.
Rob Spangler
Greg,
I fail to see where using a 'spectrum analyzer' is going to help resolve the problem. All it is going to allow is one to verify another source is flooding the frequency. What is the system and type of receivers that are being affected? The 900 mHz band is full of old wireless phones and other devices. Both the Digitrax 'simplex' and the NCE radio systems use this frequency. The Digitrax 'duplex' system uses the 2.4 gHz and IIRC, uses the channel select where the device finds a channel that is free. I have never had a problem with the DT402D throttles. Our club is in a building with a chiropractic office which has lots of imaging/therapy devices and we have no problem like you describe. Maybe you need to file an incident with the FCC as most of these devices are limited to the amount of power they can transmit.
The big problems with radio/wireless throttles is range and battery life. Our club has a single UR91 simplex receiver as most of the members have DT400R throttles. We are thinking about adding 1-2 additional receivers in the future. Battery life has been resolved by using 9.6v Power-Ex re-chargeable batteries. The usual 9v batteries(even rechargeable ones) last only about 2-3 hours on a full charge.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Only time I've ever seen radio interference using a radio DCC system is when we set up the club layout in the same venue as others using NCE radio systems. The NCE constant radio chatter on the same frequency renders the Digitrax simplex system unusable. But there is always the Digitrax duplex system which is on an entirely different frequency. Even operating in close proximity to other Digitrax clubs using duples (2.4GHz) as well as a hall filled with vendors using WiFi POS credit card scanners (also 2.4GHz) , I've never seen a problem. Besides multiple channels to choose from, the Digitrax duplex also has an ID, so as long as you set your system to a different ID than the other guys right next to you, you can both be on the same channel and not have any issues.
I started with a Digitrax Zephyr as my first intro to DCC and still use it: but, I upgraded my throttle to a duplex radio DT402D and it is like another world. One thing I love about the throttle is that it has 2 throttles (the small round knobs that are easy to operate) so I can operate two locos at once, a feature that is a lot more useful than I realized. My layout is about 18 x 22 and I have around 15 locos on it at all times, most just sitting on sidings, and most have sound. I haven't run into any 'power' issues yet, even with 3 locos running at once. Just some additional data to think about.
-Bob
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
I prefer WiFi as radio protocol and withrottle. With JMRI it's compatible with various DCC systems, and you won't have to purchase several propriatary throttles to operate on different layouts with different manufacturer DCC systems. Future DCC systems are including built in wifi and will become a universal throttle format given a little more time.
Chris Palomarez
There are several wireless DCC systems operating in my region (lots of medium-to-large wireless layouts around here). Most in this area are NCE, most of the rest are Digitrax, and none have seen the types of interference that you are describing.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
richg1998There are two or three wireless systems out that have the decoder and battery in the tender. They can run on DCC and DC layouts or no power on the track. Only experts who do not use them, do not like them.That happens a lot with different products.
I don't believe that any single one of the emerging direct radio/battery systems does all of things you have described. Features are mixed-and-matched
Batteries aren't free, they aren't weightless, they reduce the length of the train that may be pulled, and they take up space in locos that may already be tight to begin with. Diesel-era modelers have no tender in their models to hold batteries. Adding batteries to locos is a significant amount of work. And they must be recharged somehow. Some of the emerging systems are pretty clumsy when it comes to recharging.
Some folks ("expert" or not) have looked at one or more of those emerging direct radio/battery systems, studied their strengths and weaknesses, and elected to stay with wireless DCC. They aren't the panacea -- at least not yet.
For a newcomer as the Original Poster seems to be, these are probably not the best choice today.
Which direct radio/battery system do you use on your own layout?
Avoid MTH DCS. Does not mix well with DCC.
Realize that DCC is only ONE WAY of digitally controlling trains. DCC is strictly a NMRA way of digitally controlling trains that many are not aware of. They are stuck in a time warp.
Digital control of trains is evolving even as we speak. Many users get caught in a time warp and are not aware that technology is continually evolving. There are two or three wireless systems out that have the decoder and battery in the tender. They can run on DCC and DC layouts or no power on the track. Only experts who do not use them, do not like them.That happens a lot with different products.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
i wonder about radio interference.
using a spectrum analyzer, we recently confirmed intermittent radio interference on the frequency our wire system operated on. The were many minutes without interference that might occur for a minute. This interference caused erratic performance even with the handheld close to an antenna.
I don't see a solution if the source of interference in outside the building, and don't believe increasing the antenna gain using pie tin grounds planes would be sufficient.
the point is, different systems may operate at different frequencies, so while one system may work poorly, another might work great depending on the frequency of the interference
i would suggest trying out a system and making sure it works acceptably. And just because one system works poorly, another might work great. Unfortunately, there is no guarantee that a new source of interference won't develop at some time in the future.
selector Yes, it really is a Ford vs. Chrysler thing.
Yes, it really is a Ford vs. Chrysler thing.
Dats why I drive a Chebbie!
Seriously, you really need to determine what you need now, what you may need in the future. A "givens and druthers" list, just like planning a layout. This in itself should narrow the field. Then "road test" each of the remaining systems, see what YOU like, cuz after all, YOU will be paying for it. Better to pay attention to this phase, than to pay for your mistake for possibly as long as you run trains!
That beings said, the local club, and the friends in an informal "round robin" group here all have NCE PH-Pro-R systems. Range has not been an issue, even on a 60x100 modular layout, and its really cool to take your throttle to another pike, and the throttle come on with the last consist you ran at that pike,,not the last train you ran at home!! Plus PC interface, smart phone throttles, it awesome!!
Karl
NCE über alles!
I also use the Digitrax Simplex radio system. I have 2 main tracks that are almost 350 feet each and each main has its own booster ( Dcs100 and Db150) as well as my yard (Db150) has its own booster just in case a loco shorts because of a derailment. I have another Dcs100 in my work shop for programing and trouble shooting, It may be overkill but it all works for me and the others that operate. I have had Digitrax for over 15 years and still have the original booster with out any complaints. The main thing that you have to do read about which system you want and when you do get a system of your choice read the manuals at least 3 times. There is a lot of info to learn and you will have questions which there are forums for all of them and the others that are here are great at helping also. Good Luck ,Jim.
Richard.
Train ModelerDoes it support JMRI app or similar? Does it support computer system interface? How many functions per throttle does it support(I use over 12)? Does it have easy consisting?
Yes and yes. Lenz uses the LI101. The ECOS has the USB connector built in like the NCE system uses. Both have 29 functions and consisting in the decoder and command station. Another thing with the ECOS is the ability to use other manufactures throttles with the system and download pictures of the locomotive directly into the unit.
http://www.esu.eu/en/products/digital-control/ecos-50200-dcc-system/what-ecos-can-do/
http://www.esu.eu/en/products/digital-control/lnet-converter/
I am not touting the other systems but just giving the OP more options besides the 2 systems you mentioned. I even know someone who uses the MRC wireless at home and likes it. Options are great.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
wigman I like the large knob and buttons on the Lenz.
I have them both, and I would strongly suggest that you do NOT get the large-knob throttle, called the "Engineer's" throttle and provided with their Set 90. Get the Set 100 and the "Dispatcher's" throttle, with all buttons. The user interface is completely different, and it's much easier to do anything with the all-button throttle.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
wigman ...I don't know where to start in trying them all out - I will ask my train shop owner if he has any customers or clubs that will help me out... Wig
...I don't know where to start in trying them all out - I will ask my train shop owner if he has any customers or clubs that will help me out...
Wig
I would say most clubs would be more then happy to have you as a guest and show you around (afterall, you may want to become a member so it could be mutually beneficial to them and you). Once you are there, odds are you will meet a couple folks who have different systems and you can ask them questions. Heck, you may even get an invite over to their house to see their own personal layouts and systems. You may even decide that joining that club might be the thing for you for the time being? But clubs are a definite good start and could snowball for you in a good way. The local hobby shop owner may have a demonstration layout operating on a DCC system that you could take for a spin. Odds are, if you ask around, someone would be able to help out or know someone who can.
Good luck and happy modeling!
Don.
"Ladies and gentlemen, I have some good news and some bad news. The bad news is that both engines have failed, and we will be stuck here for some time. The good news is that you decided to take the train and not fly."
I would like to add that my new layout is designed to support at least 4 operators.
I am leaning toward the Digitrax Super Chief wireless, but I am intrigued by the others as well. I like the large knob and buttons on the Lenz. I don't know where to start in trying them all out - I will ask my train shop owner if he has any customers or clubs that will help me out.
Your comments are so useful, the help is greatly appreciated....
locoi1sa Train ModelerI would avoid any but Digitrax or NCE. What about the Lenz/CVP wireless system? Our club has used it for over ten years that has not given any fits or problems. Don't rule out the ESU Ecos system either. Like I said earlier try as many as you can. Pete
Train ModelerI would avoid any but Digitrax or NCE.
What about the Lenz/CVP wireless system? Our club has used it for over ten years that has not given any fits or problems. Don't rule out the ESU Ecos system either. Like I said earlier try as many as you can.
Does it support JMRI app or similar? Does it support computer system interface? How many functions per throttle does it support(I use over 12)? Does it have easy consisting?
Since you're in a club then you can support each other and have common protocols a key ingredient for success.
Richard
I'll give a shout out for CVP's wireless system - whether you use it with their own EasyDCC system or with a Lenz based system, its easy to use, great support and made in the US.
While I have gotten used to push-button throttles, or those tiny knobs on the Digi-Trax throttles and even thumbwheels, I've still always preferred a large knob throttle .... CVP solves that.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
The 'size' of your layout really has little to do with the 'best' system. There are several points you will need to consider:
Current Capacity - This adds up as multiple engines and DCC accessories are added(like stationary decoders for turnouts).
Number of engines that will be operation at the same time
Number of 'throttles' that will be used at the same time.
Wireless Throttles - This adds cost and is something that can be added later with the better systems.
Computer Control - Another item that can be added later with many of the better system.
I will give you an example by using my layout. It occupies a 20' by 25' area and normally has about 9-10 engines 'on the layout'. Most are 'sound' equipped - figure about 1/4 - 1/3 amp each when running. I have 4 'throttles'. and run about 2-3 trains at any one time.
The current draw of the trains is about 3 amps maximum. I also have 4 'wireless' throttles, but they are powered by their own 'wall wart' power supplies. I also have a computer attached to the railroad via JMRI.
Most of the 'entry' systems are in the 1.7 to 3.0 amp range, so I would need an additional 'booster' or buy a larger system to handle the load if I had any growth with these systems. What I purchased was a 5 amp system(there really was no smaller starter system back in the late 90's). The NCE Power Cab or Digitrax Zephyr are excellent 'starter' systems than have growth potential. Adding radio/wireless cabs to these system is easy. They have most of the 'features' of their larger 'big brothers'. They also allow easy attachment of JMRI/computer control later. Though I do not use computer control, I do use JMRI Decoder Pro to program engines - It is so much easier to use than pressing buttons on a hand-held throttle.
What I have is a Digitrax radio Super Chief system - sort of overkill, but I do have lots of growth! If I was just getting into DCC, I would be tempted to buy a Digitrax Zephyr Xtra or the NCE Power Cab starter systems. Both can be expanded, and they do have the a computer interface for JMRI. The MRC systems do not support JMRI, so are not an option for me.
I would avoid any but Digitrax or NCE.
The NMRA has defined specifications for how DCC interacts with the decoders in the locomotives and those "stationary" decoders used for throwing turnouts. However, that's where the required commonality generally ends. On the other side of the interface, we still have the controller and the throttles, and these are all proprietary, and mostly incompatable with each other.
You should try the throttles. Give them the comfort test in your hand, the eyeball test in normal and low-light situations, and the fat-finger test. I bought my Lenz system, in part, because I like the large buttons on their throttles more than the cell-phone sized buttons on some others. It's a personal thing, so it's important that you make that decision, not someone else. That "mine is the best" thing? It's absolutely right. The best system is the one that works for you.
I don't even have radio control on my system, but it is available and I may try it sometime. For now, though, I like my tethered throttles a lot.
wigmanTell me which one to avoid, in your opinion, please....
All of them. I hate buying batteries and remembering to plug in the chargers and such. But then again the plug in throttles can be hazardous. Since the throttles are the major human/ layout interface it is best to feel each one you can get your hands on. Any system you purchase will be an expensive investment in your future happiness. If for some reason you chose a system where the throttles do not feel right to your hand and is hard to operate then you will not be happy. I personally have used two different Digitrax throttles, 3 different NCE throttles, 2 different Lenz wired throttles with CVP wireless for Lenz throttles. Of all the throttles that have been in my hand the best one for me is the Lenz LH90 knob throttle.
Take our advice and try them before you buy them.
MRC. I don't own one, but have heard nothing really positive about it on these forums. Limited upgrades and lack of compatibility with Decoder Pro seem to be the main complaints about MRC products.
If service and support are important to you, consider the fact that NCE and Digitrax are made in the U.S. and all MRC products are made in China.
Tell me which one to avoid, in your opinion, please....
Whats best is what you will like best.
Try each one first.
Good luck on that.
ARich