Have you tried heavier bus wires?
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
I have a stretch of track that acts like this also, so this is a very interesting issue. I don't have a response issue in this section of track, unless it is occurring all over the layout. And that does happen. But at a certain time of day (early into late evening) my locos will take several seconds to respond to a throttle command. It is especially true with the Walthers Proto E sound units. I think they soak up huge amounts of current and I don't have a high amp system. So I think I may have an expansion-contraction issue with the metal track pieces. That wouldn't matter at the soldered joints, but not all the joints are soldered to (wait for it) allow for epansion and contraction. I have more work to do.
Have you done the quarter test to verify you have proper power to all areas of the layout? This is sitting a quarter across the rails and verifying that the booster trips (or other circuit breakers if you have your layout so divided). No pressing on the quarter.
ALso what settings did you use on your meter to read the voltage? Using the AC volts on the cheap Harbor Freight meter, with my DB150 on the HO setting, I get a bit over 14 volts. Innaccurate, as the meter is designed for 60 Hz sine-wave AC. Digitrax has an alternate method, measuring from oen rail to the ground connection, and then the other rail to ground. These should be the same. If not, then you've selected address 00 and it is not at stop. In fact, if this is true, this can cause issues with delayed commands. If address 00 is stopped and the voltage varies - you may have a problem with the booster or command station.
Even though direct reading of the track voltage with an ordinary meter is not completely accurate - it WILL be consistent. So check the voltage at several places around the layout. It should all be the same.
Finally, what is your power source for the system? If the power supply is less than 15V AC or about 17V DC, you aren't going to get the nominal 15V track power on the HO setting.
I know Loksound decoders work below 15V, I got my first one when all I had was my Zephyr, and that has a fixed track voltage of around 13.5 actual (not what I get with a cheap meter), somewhere between the N and HO settings of the DB150/DCS100. They ran fine with that.
You should be OK with the voltage, assuming there's not an issue with address 00. A common meter will read a bit lower than actual. But if address 00 was selected and speed set to maximum one way or the other, the effective voltage on one half of the signal could be well below 13V.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I did get an e-mail back from LOKSOUND. They suggested I check the track voltage. I checked it with my multimeter and it reads 13 volts. Their response is below:
"Hi Marty, If the voltage /pickup is low or questionable there may not be enough power provide to power up the amp the and run the motor and lights. 13volts would be borderline… especially on a big layout were the amperage draw from a lot of track or other engines may be high. Best Regards, General Manager ESU LLC"
Unfortunately, I can't really check this out. I could flip the toggle on the Digitrax unit from "HO" to the larger scale as I think this ups the voltage. Sounds dangerous to my locos. Anyway, since I have already removed the LOKSOUND decoder and replaced it with a non-sound decoder, I don't think I'll be testing this out anytime soon. Maybe if I have a reason to take the loco apart I will pop back the LOKSOUND decoder and give it a try on the higher voltage setting. To be safe, I'll remove all of my other locomotives from the track or turn off the power to the loco tracks.
Anyone else run into this or try this with a decoder response problem?
www.oakhurstrailroad.com
"Oakhurst Railroad" on Facebook
Good suggestion to contact ESU. I will do that. However, it looks like they have a very long Christmas break so it might be a while ...
It seems to me that we have exhausted all the possibilities, so it is time to throw in the towel and suggest that you try a different decoder. My suggestion would be to try a straight motor and light control only decoder such as a TCS T-1 and see if the locomotive runs better with it. If so, then the LokSound is definitely at fault and should be sent to ESU USA for replacement.
If you send an email to ESU USA, they will probably ask you to send the flaky decoder to them and they will send a free replacement.
If you tell them the type of locomotive into which it is installed and the desired cab number, they will probably also program the new decoder for you.
No decoder manufacturer is 100% fail-proof 100% of the time, and ESU USA, as well as other brands, have been very good about replacing defective products.
Here's a link to ESU's web site. Good luck!
http://www.esu.eu/en/start/
If only it was as simple as resetting the decoder. I tried it again, just in case I had forgotten to try that, and it doesn't help. Also turning off Marklin compatability and RailCom doesn't help either ...
ORE,
After 8 months of aggravation with one Loco, I would be inclined to go with #1, but that decision,should be yours. Good Luck, in Your choice.
Frank
Have to agree with resetting, I have multiple Loksound equipped locos (not as many as Cacole, YET), and none of them give me any problems liek that either on my home Digitrax layout or the club Digitrax layout. The worst I ever get is a fraction of a second delay in activating sounds at the club layout, but that happens on everyone's, regardless of decoder brand, because of so many people all being active knob tweakers, the delay is in Loconet and the radio throttles, not the decoder. Mostly the radio, actually, because when I sit and workt he coal yard with my Loksound equipped switcher, I use my plug in throttle, and never have any issues flipping the lights or sounding the horn when starting, stopping or reversing. This one came from Bowser, so likely not programmed in any exotic way, but I did do a reset on it (luckily Bowser programmed the sounds correctly and they weren't erased, but I do have a Loksound Programmer and could have restored them if necessary). My others have never had a problem, although they too have been reset when I aquired more accurate sounds and reloaded them with my Lokprogrammer. Operation of those is identical to any other loco, ie, no lag at all on my home layout which only has 1 throttle plugged ina nd maybe 2 locos moving, sometimes a slight lag on the club layout, which is 165x28 and can have 10 people all running multiple locos on their trains and everyone trying to be prototypical and blowing for crossings and so forth.
Have you tried resetting the LokSound decoder to factory default settings? This supposedly does not affect the sound files.
If you do lose the sound files and don't have a LokProgrammer, you might be able to find a hobby shop with one that can perform this service. There may be something flaky with the programming that was performed by Hornby that a reset can correct.
I don't know where Hornby programs LokSound decoders, but they may be leaving all the various foreign system compatability settings active, because LokSound decoders support several different systems world-wide.
I have a LokProgrammer and have sometimes found some very weird factory-installed settings in decoders that can cause all manner of probems, such as having Marklin compatability or RailCom turned on.
With the help of a local hobby store, we have removed the shell and unplugged the loksound decorder and replaced it with a simple Digitrax (non-sound) decoder. As expected it runs perfectly on multiple layouts and all layout sections.
So, as I see it, I have three choices:
1) Keep the non-sound decoder and toss the loksound decoder ($30)
2) I can send it back to Hornby again for replacement or repair ($ shipping plus probably have to reweather, repaint the roof, add some extra weight again as they will probably replace the loco)
3) Install a Tsuanami sound decoder ($150-$200 for decoder & install)
I'm leaning toward 1 as the easiest option ... ???
I suspect a slightly low track voltage in the problem areas combined with a decoder that is marginal in its ability to tolerate voltage drops. MRC decoders used to be known for this issue. You could trade out the decoder temporarily for another decoder, or increase the track voltage from the booster to test my theory. Measuring the no load voltage will NOT tell you whether you have a voltage drop under load.
It would be interesting to know the current draw of the locomotive/train just before it stalls. The higher the current, the more likely you are to have a too-high voltage drop under load.
Was the decoder moved to the replacement loco at Hornby/Rivarossi? Or did you get a new decoder, too?
The long term fix (if I am correct) is to add feeders of decent gauge wire in the problem areas and/or boost your track voltage. You never know when you might add another locomotive that has the same issue of low tolerance to voltage drops.
just my thoughts and experiences
Fred W
Answering more questions:
1) The headlight does not flicker
2) It was a replacement loco, not a repaired one. I had done a little minor weathering and pulled out the coal load. It had the same problem before and after the intial weathering.
3) It is a 2T Heisler not a 3T Shay
4) I have added some extra weight. However the truck arrangement on the Heisler is probably not as sensitive like some steamers might be to contact problems. I may try a little extra weight while it is running but don't expect any difference.
Oakhurst Railroad Engineerhere is a delay of from 1 to 20 seconds before the loco responds to a throttle change OR a sound function. The delay is worst in some of the sections farthest from the feeders. In every case, once the locomotive is stopped, the sound functions and the throttle commands respond instantly.
OK. Starting to sound like a corrupt DCC signal in combination to a contact issue. Even on club layouts that are wired properly there can and will be sections where digital signals will be corrupt. http://www.wiringfordcc.com/dcc_waveforms.htm Obviously this particular locomotive is sensitive to corrupted signals. There seems to be a contact issue with the locomotive still. Time to break out the ohm meter and make sure that each wheel has contact with each other on the same side. I am also wondering if additional weight on the three trucks will improve the pick up issue. (You did say it was a three truck Shay right?) My OMI brass 0-6-0 switcher ran like crud until I added a couple of ounces of additional weight to the loco and tender. It also has a Loksound Micro Select decoder. But it would have been the same with any decoder. The more weight the better the contact.
Good luck.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
zstripe He did say it was replaced,,,not repaired,,,,,,Who know's? Maybe I am totally weird,,but if I were to send something in for a repair,,I would most definitely,put some kind of mark on it somewhere,to see If I got the same one back...But I don't know nuttin'.. Cheers, Frank
He did say it was replaced,,,not repaired,,,,,,Who know's? Maybe I am totally weird,,but if I were to send something in for a repair,,I would most definitely,put some kind of mark on it somewhere,to see If I got the same one back...But I don't know nuttin'..
Cheers,
Frank, you know sumtin.
I mark locos sent in for repair or replacement.
Maybe the OP said replaced, not repaired, but you gotta wonder what he got back.
From everything the OP tells us, it seems more like the loco than the track.
Rich
Alton Junction
It is sounding more and more like a loco issue rather than a track issue.
I am beginning to wonder if the manufacturer repaired the faulty loco and returned it to the OP but didn't get it right.
When in these sections where it responds poorly, does the headlight flicker? If it does, you definitely have power problems. You should be able to run at the slowest speeds anywhere on your layout without a flickering headlight.
Update:
1) My layout is poorly wired for DCC, as it was converted from DC wiring with only a few additional feeders added. However, this is entirely enough for reliable operation of my dozen non-sound and 5 other sound locomotives (None of the others are Loksound).
2) My club layout is wired with much more care and the loco seems to be as bad or worse than on my own layout.
3) My club layout has a programming track that can be switched to a straight wires to run track from a DCC unit. When on there, the locomotive seems fine.
Back on my layout:
4) I tried playing with CV54 as suggested with no improvement
5) I turned off RailCom in CV 28 and CV29 with no improvement
6) I set CV57 and CV58 as suggested in the Model Railroader review and changed the sound chuff (not relevant to this problem)
7) Back on my layout, I moved the loco by hand to every section of track. The sounds respond instantly to function keys IF the locomotive is not moving. If the locomotive is moving, there is a delay of from 1 to 20 seconds before the loco responds to a throttle change OR a sound function. The delay is worst in some of the sections farthest from the feeders. In every case, once the locomotive is stopped, the sound functions and the throttle commands respond instantly. CV3 and CV4 acceleration and deceleration are only set to 5 and are not what is causing this.
8) an earlier question asked about the replacement locomotive. It was indeed replaced and not repaired, but no other information was provided.
So, any other ideas? Adding a lot more feeders and soldering all the track might fix the problem. However, I am reluctant to do that as this is the only locomotive that is giving me trouble.
Of course, if it happens only at certain points of either layout, it's also not lilely to be a config issue.
What are the similarities between the two layouts where this happens? Different power district with its own booster? Detected blocks vs non-detected blocks? Simply the furthest section from the power source?
If this is a factory version 4 decoder I am wondering if the enabling of railcom in CV29 and CV28 is affecting the performance? I have had issues with older decoders on Railcom enabled systems. Does your Digitrax system have bidirectional communications? Just might be something to consider.
Since it happens on two different layouts, it might not be a pickup issue. But I have several Loksound equipped locos, though not that specific one, that run just fine on my home Digitrax layout and on the club's Digitrax layout. If there is some sort of comaptibility issue, it would be because of some custom programming done by Rivarossi/Hornby that isn't done by PCM or Bowser. Exactly what that could be, is the question.
My voice won't add much to this, but I do agree that the rails are the problem if the problem happens at the same spot repeatedly. The engine's performance is noticeably better upon its return, and they admit to having detected a fault. Fine. Now it seems to work well on other layouts. Well....great. It's only the OP's, and he says he now has it down to one location...? Well....I'm pretty darned sure he needs to get in there and do some metering, including during passage of the loco. Or, just pick up the soldering stuff and get at it.
Crandell
No matter what the quarter test tells you, if the problem only happens in one location and it runs fine everywhere else, the problem is in the track.
Reconsider the gauge of your bus. check all of your feeders, both length and size. Make sure the track is clean and all of your wire connections are good. If they are soldered, consider resoldering them. If they are suitcase connectors, consider soldering them. If they are crimp connectors, consider replacing them.
SOMETHING is compromising the signal, but not necessarily the voltage to your track.
Run the offending locomotive very slowly through the problem area and note exactly where the problem begins and ends. Examine that area very carefully. Consider adding a feeder in that area. Consider soldering the rail joints in that area.
I missed this thread when it was first posted back in April, so it is interesting to read through it all now.
Did the manufacturer repair the loco or send you a new one? If it is a replacement, and not a repair, you have to wonder what was wrong with it that it couldn't be repaired. if it was repaired, what was the nature of the repair?
Is this your only sound loco, or are there other sound locos running on your layout?
Interesting that it runs flawlessly on another layout. I doubt that it is a compatibility issue with Loksound and Digitrax even though it ran flawlessly on the MRC layout. Probably coincidence. What type of Digitrax DCC system are you running on your layout?
Hard to tell whether it is a loco issue or a track issue.
Let's wait to hear your response to the other questions posed in this reply.
Marty,
You said that they fixed the pick-up problem,,which I recall,that was my suggestion,in the beginning,,,now I will give another suggestion,add feeders to wherever you are have problem's,,sounds like in some spots on your layout,you are relying on rail joiners for power flow,,like in the Helix..Some, if not all DCC systems,with sound,don't play well with power dead spots.. But what do I know?
UPDATE
It is the same locomotive reviewed in the November issue of Model Railroader with a Dual-mode ESU LokSound DCC decoder.
I have tried the locomotive on a layout with a MRC DCC system with no problems at all! I tried it on my club's layout with Digitrax and I get the same problem I get on my Digitrax DCC layout. So it is a LokSound Digitrax compatability problem? Anyone heard of this?
Thanks,
Marty
OK, just got a new replacement loco back from Hornby. Seems to be fine with front truck pick-up, which was a problem with the old one.
Also, it seems to stay under control and take commands ALMOST everywhere on my layout. It only loses command response in parts of the middle of my helix, but is good everywhere else. This is a great improvement compared to the loco I returned.
I'm going to go redo the "quarter" shorting test in the helix just to be sure everything is OK. As mentioned in the original post, none of my other locos are having any problems.
After an e-mail to Hornby customer serevice, new Heisler #3 goes back home to Rivarossi / Hornby (in Washington state) for a check-out and repair or replace.
When I get it back, I'll remember to post if all problems are solved ...