I've been operating my layout on DCC for a few years now and have never had any significant problems with the Digitrax DCC. I did convert the layout over from block DC and added enough feeders so that all of the track passed the "penny" short test. I've been running many different locomotives without problems over the entire layout for a few years.
This week I received a new DCC locomotive (with sound) and it runs nicely. However, on a couple of portions of the layout, it often does not respond to throttle or function commands right away. Sometimes it runs out of control until leaves that area of the layout. The problem does seem to be in areas that may be farther than typical from a feeder. Everywhere else it responds fine.
I'm going to try running the locomotive on a friends layout over the weekend, so that will be another test.
So, have you guys experienced this kind of problem before?
Thanks,
Marty
www.oakhurstrailroad.com
"Oakhurst Railroad" on Facebook
What kind of decoder is in the locomotive?
This sort of thing occasionally happens with "dual-mode" decoders that can operate on either DC or DCC. There is a CV to put the decoder in DCC-only mode. This often fixes the problem.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
make sure the track in that area is very clean ,make it shine if your track is dirty it can intterupt the dcc signal, secondly maybe add another set of feeders to that part of the track ,
You can never have too many feeders
Also, sound locos can be more sensitive to the lack of adequate power. So, double/triple clean the track/wheels. We add keep alive caps to ours many times.
Richard
MisterBeasleyWhat kind of decoder is in the locomotive?
I found it is a Loksound decoder.
MisterBeasleyThis sort of thing occasionally happens with "dual-mode" decoders that can operate on either DC or DCC. There is a CV to put the decoder in DCC-only mode. This often fixes the problem.
Tried it but it did not help.
I ran into a guy today that says he had the same problem with a Loksound decoder equipped loco and was never able to stop it. His was a small layout with more feeders and soldered joints.
I also recleaned the track and loco wheels but it didn't improve ...
Any other ideas anyone?
OK, here is the latest. Still having problems with intermittant running out of control on some portions of my layout. However, I have also noticed it is having more trouble going over some of my "dead frog" turnouts than would be expected. As I was cleaning wheels (again) and using contact cleaner on the truck/wheel contacts I noticed that the front truck would sometimes lose conductivity. The back truck would always work and the sound would be normal. However, the front truck conductivity would go in and out and when it was working, the sound from the speaker would produce a lot of static.
Could my problem be a bad front truck that is adding a lot of electrical "noise" to the signal and disrupting some of the signals to the decoder? If this is what is going on, I think I need to send the Heisler back to the manufacturer (Rivarossi/Hornby).
??
I don't believe it is a bad truck,, I believe, it is a poor, solder,joint to the pick-up,wipers,or to the decoder,,causing intermittent power to the decoder....
Cheers,
Frank
Oakhurst: How come you didn't mention this on Saturday when we operated? You had a brain trust there! Owen W
If it's under warranty and you're satisfied everything is clean--I would call first then send back. You should not be having pick up issues with a truck, IMHO.
After an e-mail to Hornby customer serevice, new Heisler #3 goes back home to Rivarossi / Hornby (in Washington state) for a check-out and repair or replace.
When I get it back, I'll remember to post if all problems are solved ...
OK, just got a new replacement loco back from Hornby. Seems to be fine with front truck pick-up, which was a problem with the old one.
Also, it seems to stay under control and take commands ALMOST everywhere on my layout. It only loses command response in parts of the middle of my helix, but is good everywhere else. This is a great improvement compared to the loco I returned.
I'm going to go redo the "quarter" shorting test in the helix just to be sure everything is OK. As mentioned in the original post, none of my other locos are having any problems.
UPDATE
It is the same locomotive reviewed in the November issue of Model Railroader with a Dual-mode ESU LokSound DCC decoder.
I have tried the locomotive on a layout with a MRC DCC system with no problems at all! I tried it on my club's layout with Digitrax and I get the same problem I get on my Digitrax DCC layout. So it is a LokSound Digitrax compatability problem? Anyone heard of this?
Marty,
You said that they fixed the pick-up problem,,which I recall,that was my suggestion,in the beginning,,,now I will give another suggestion,add feeders to wherever you are have problem's,,sounds like in some spots on your layout,you are relying on rail joiners for power flow,,like in the Helix..Some, if not all DCC systems,with sound,don't play well with power dead spots.. But what do I know?
I missed this thread when it was first posted back in April, so it is interesting to read through it all now.
Did the manufacturer repair the loco or send you a new one? If it is a replacement, and not a repair, you have to wonder what was wrong with it that it couldn't be repaired. if it was repaired, what was the nature of the repair?
Is this your only sound loco, or are there other sound locos running on your layout?
Interesting that it runs flawlessly on another layout. I doubt that it is a compatibility issue with Loksound and Digitrax even though it ran flawlessly on the MRC layout. Probably coincidence. What type of Digitrax DCC system are you running on your layout?
Hard to tell whether it is a loco issue or a track issue.
Let's wait to hear your response to the other questions posed in this reply.
Rich
Alton Junction
No matter what the quarter test tells you, if the problem only happens in one location and it runs fine everywhere else, the problem is in the track.
Reconsider the gauge of your bus. check all of your feeders, both length and size. Make sure the track is clean and all of your wire connections are good. If they are soldered, consider resoldering them. If they are suitcase connectors, consider soldering them. If they are crimp connectors, consider replacing them.
SOMETHING is compromising the signal, but not necessarily the voltage to your track.
Run the offending locomotive very slowly through the problem area and note exactly where the problem begins and ends. Examine that area very carefully. Consider adding a feeder in that area. Consider soldering the rail joints in that area.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
My voice won't add much to this, but I do agree that the rails are the problem if the problem happens at the same spot repeatedly. The engine's performance is noticeably better upon its return, and they admit to having detected a fault. Fine. Now it seems to work well on other layouts. Well....great. It's only the OP's, and he says he now has it down to one location...? Well....I'm pretty darned sure he needs to get in there and do some metering, including during passage of the loco. Or, just pick up the soldering stuff and get at it.
Crandell
Since it happens on two different layouts, it might not be a pickup issue. But I have several Loksound equipped locos, though not that specific one, that run just fine on my home Digitrax layout and on the club's Digitrax layout. If there is some sort of comaptibility issue, it would be because of some custom programming done by Rivarossi/Hornby that isn't done by PCM or Bowser. Exactly what that could be, is the question.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
If this is a factory version 4 decoder I am wondering if the enabling of railcom in CV29 and CV28 is affecting the performance? I have had issues with older decoders on Railcom enabled systems. Does your Digitrax system have bidirectional communications? Just might be something to consider.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
Of course, if it happens only at certain points of either layout, it's also not lilely to be a config issue.
What are the similarities between the two layouts where this happens? Different power district with its own booster? Detected blocks vs non-detected blocks? Simply the furthest section from the power source?
Update:
1) My layout is poorly wired for DCC, as it was converted from DC wiring with only a few additional feeders added. However, this is entirely enough for reliable operation of my dozen non-sound and 5 other sound locomotives (None of the others are Loksound).
2) My club layout is wired with much more care and the loco seems to be as bad or worse than on my own layout.
3) My club layout has a programming track that can be switched to a straight wires to run track from a DCC unit. When on there, the locomotive seems fine.
Back on my layout:
4) I tried playing with CV54 as suggested with no improvement
5) I turned off RailCom in CV 28 and CV29 with no improvement
6) I set CV57 and CV58 as suggested in the Model Railroader review and changed the sound chuff (not relevant to this problem)
7) Back on my layout, I moved the loco by hand to every section of track. The sounds respond instantly to function keys IF the locomotive is not moving. If the locomotive is moving, there is a delay of from 1 to 20 seconds before the loco responds to a throttle change OR a sound function. The delay is worst in some of the sections farthest from the feeders. In every case, once the locomotive is stopped, the sound functions and the throttle commands respond instantly. CV3 and CV4 acceleration and deceleration are only set to 5 and are not what is causing this.
8) an earlier question asked about the replacement locomotive. It was indeed replaced and not repaired, but no other information was provided.
So, any other ideas? Adding a lot more feeders and soldering all the track might fix the problem. However, I am reluctant to do that as this is the only locomotive that is giving me trouble.
When in these sections where it responds poorly, does the headlight flicker? If it does, you definitely have power problems. You should be able to run at the slowest speeds anywhere on your layout without a flickering headlight.
It is sounding more and more like a loco issue rather than a track issue.
I am beginning to wonder if the manufacturer repaired the faulty loco and returned it to the OP but didn't get it right.
He did say it was replaced,,,not repaired,,,,,,Who know's? Maybe I am totally weird,,but if I were to send something in for a repair,,I would most definitely,put some kind of mark on it somewhere,to see If I got the same one back...But I don't know nuttin'..
zstripe He did say it was replaced,,,not repaired,,,,,,Who know's? Maybe I am totally weird,,but if I were to send something in for a repair,,I would most definitely,put some kind of mark on it somewhere,to see If I got the same one back...But I don't know nuttin'.. Cheers, Frank
Frank, you know sumtin.
I mark locos sent in for repair or replacement.
Maybe the OP said replaced, not repaired, but you gotta wonder what he got back.
From everything the OP tells us, it seems more like the loco than the track.
Oakhurst Railroad Engineerhere is a delay of from 1 to 20 seconds before the loco responds to a throttle change OR a sound function. The delay is worst in some of the sections farthest from the feeders. In every case, once the locomotive is stopped, the sound functions and the throttle commands respond instantly.
OK. Starting to sound like a corrupt DCC signal in combination to a contact issue. Even on club layouts that are wired properly there can and will be sections where digital signals will be corrupt. http://www.wiringfordcc.com/dcc_waveforms.htm Obviously this particular locomotive is sensitive to corrupted signals. There seems to be a contact issue with the locomotive still. Time to break out the ohm meter and make sure that each wheel has contact with each other on the same side. I am also wondering if additional weight on the three trucks will improve the pick up issue. (You did say it was a three truck Shay right?) My OMI brass 0-6-0 switcher ran like crud until I added a couple of ounces of additional weight to the loco and tender. It also has a Loksound Micro Select decoder. But it would have been the same with any decoder. The more weight the better the contact.
Good luck.
Answering more questions:
1) The headlight does not flicker
2) It was a replacement loco, not a repaired one. I had done a little minor weathering and pulled out the coal load. It had the same problem before and after the intial weathering.
3) It is a 2T Heisler not a 3T Shay
4) I have added some extra weight. However the truck arrangement on the Heisler is probably not as sensitive like some steamers might be to contact problems. I may try a little extra weight while it is running but don't expect any difference.
I suspect a slightly low track voltage in the problem areas combined with a decoder that is marginal in its ability to tolerate voltage drops. MRC decoders used to be known for this issue. You could trade out the decoder temporarily for another decoder, or increase the track voltage from the booster to test my theory. Measuring the no load voltage will NOT tell you whether you have a voltage drop under load.
It would be interesting to know the current draw of the locomotive/train just before it stalls. The higher the current, the more likely you are to have a too-high voltage drop under load.
Was the decoder moved to the replacement loco at Hornby/Rivarossi? Or did you get a new decoder, too?
The long term fix (if I am correct) is to add feeders of decent gauge wire in the problem areas and/or boost your track voltage. You never know when you might add another locomotive that has the same issue of low tolerance to voltage drops.
just my thoughts and experiences
Fred W
With the help of a local hobby store, we have removed the shell and unplugged the loksound decorder and replaced it with a simple Digitrax (non-sound) decoder. As expected it runs perfectly on multiple layouts and all layout sections.
So, as I see it, I have three choices:
1) Keep the non-sound decoder and toss the loksound decoder ($30)
2) I can send it back to Hornby again for replacement or repair ($ shipping plus probably have to reweather, repaint the roof, add some extra weight again as they will probably replace the loco)
3) Install a Tsuanami sound decoder ($150-$200 for decoder & install)
I'm leaning toward 1 as the easiest option ... ???
Have you tried resetting the LokSound decoder to factory default settings? This supposedly does not affect the sound files.
If you do lose the sound files and don't have a LokProgrammer, you might be able to find a hobby shop with one that can perform this service. There may be something flaky with the programming that was performed by Hornby that a reset can correct.
I don't know where Hornby programs LokSound decoders, but they may be leaving all the various foreign system compatability settings active, because LokSound decoders support several different systems world-wide.
I have a LokProgrammer and have sometimes found some very weird factory-installed settings in decoders that can cause all manner of probems, such as having Marklin compatability or RailCom turned on.
Have to agree with resetting, I have multiple Loksound equipped locos (not as many as Cacole, YET), and none of them give me any problems liek that either on my home Digitrax layout or the club Digitrax layout. The worst I ever get is a fraction of a second delay in activating sounds at the club layout, but that happens on everyone's, regardless of decoder brand, because of so many people all being active knob tweakers, the delay is in Loconet and the radio throttles, not the decoder. Mostly the radio, actually, because when I sit and workt he coal yard with my Loksound equipped switcher, I use my plug in throttle, and never have any issues flipping the lights or sounding the horn when starting, stopping or reversing. This one came from Bowser, so likely not programmed in any exotic way, but I did do a reset on it (luckily Bowser programmed the sounds correctly and they weren't erased, but I do have a Loksound Programmer and could have restored them if necessary). My others have never had a problem, although they too have been reset when I aquired more accurate sounds and reloaded them with my Lokprogrammer. Operation of those is identical to any other loco, ie, no lag at all on my home layout which only has 1 throttle plugged ina nd maybe 2 locos moving, sometimes a slight lag on the club layout, which is 165x28 and can have 10 people all running multiple locos on their trains and everyone trying to be prototypical and blowing for crossings and so forth.