My question is simple, HOW do you block a DC layout so 2 locomotives or more can be operated at the same time and at different speeds and in forward and reverse with 2 power packs?
Here are some details on why I need to do this:
1. I will soon have 2 locomotives, one is on order and will be here this week.
2. I need one loco. it is an SD unit, to run the train around the mainline oval on my island layout.
3. I need the other loco. it is a GP unit, to be the switcher to transfer rolling stock form one yard siding to another using the turnouts/switches that make up my yard ladder and stage the cars on the main line for the SD unit to connect to haul around the main line.
4. I would like to use both power packs. One will operate the main line loco., the other the yard loco., switches.turnouts.
As you can see both locomotives will need to be able to operate at different speeds and in forward and reverse at different times.
When I have asked the question of how to run two locomotives on a DC powered layout I get the same answer: "block it", but no one elaborates on how to do so and I have gotten no where on how to do so. Well now I am asking: HOW to block it? I need some type of easy to understand/read diagram or other reliable resource to look at that will show me how to do this.
Thank you.
Sounds like at it's simplest form you need two "blocks" one to run your main line and one for the yard. that is easy to do. You have to separate the power so that each block has it's own power ( and power pack). to do this use plastic rail joiners at the point that the yard starts,if there are more than one entrance to the yard then plastic joiners will have to be used at every point where the yard contacts the main line, this keeps the power from each block from going into the other block. Then hook one of your power packs to the main line block, and hook the other power pack to the yard. You will still have the option of running an engine between blocks, just make sure you have both power packs running in the same direction as the engine passes from one block to the other. If you have both engines in the same block they will both react to the power pack in that block This is describes in it's simplest terms and more complex solutions exist but it will do what you want
The answer is to block it. It couldn't be easier. All you need is some switches by Atlas.
https://secure.atlasrr.com/mod1/items.asp?Cc=HN862&iTpStatus=0&Tp=&Bc=
click on the link and then click on electrical components and then HO switch controls.
If scroll down to the bottom of the page you'll need 1 Controller switch. You'll see a "a" and a "b" spot to connect both power packs. Then you will need at least 1 of the selector switches. Each piece of track that is a "block" or power district or zone is connected to the selector. The selector determines which power pack is controlling what track or "block". You can connect a series of the selector switches to create more blocks. Any good hobby shop should have these.
Very important: make sure each block is electrically isolated. In other words you must separate the blocks by putting a plastic rail joiner in between each block or cut a gap in rail.
I'm sure other will recommend different ways but this is the way I accomplished block control in DC.
Good Luck, Derek
Edit and update, I found an old pic to show you.
One detail I did not mention, but do not think it makes a whole lot of difference, is I am using Bachmann nickel silver EX track. I understand it may require some drilling through the plastic rail bed if I have to connect wires directly to the rails.
Will plastic rail joiners work wiht the EZ track? Or does this complicate things?
With the description could I get away with using only one power pack with a different modification, but still run both locos. at the same time, in different directions and at different speeds?
A previous answer i received from someone, no one from here, is use a twin. But again I was frustrated by the lack of that person elaborating as to how to do this. If i have to use both power packs I have no problem with that, especially with the application I am wanting to operate.
Unless I receive additional info. it looks like option one is the best way to go, for now.
Thank you, but keep the advice coming.
So...How big of a layout are we talking?
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
SUX V R40 Rider One detail I did not mention, but do not think it makes a whole lot of difference, is I am using Bachmann nickel silver EX track. I understand it may require some drilling through the plastic rail bed if I have to connect wires directly to the rails. That will work but you don't have to. You can use a new ez track terminal section for each block. Will plastic rail joiners work wiht the EZ track? Or does this complicate things? No it doesnt complicate things. Plastic rail joiner is just used in place of a metal one. With the description could I get away with using only one power pack with a different modification, but still run both locos. at the same time, in different directions and at different speeds? This won't work. You need two power packs A previous answer i received from someone, no one from here, is use a twin. But again I was frustrated by the lack of that person elaborating as to how to do this. If i have to use both power packs I have no problem with that, especially with the application I am wanting to operate. There are other ways to do this, I just outlined what I did and showed you a pic, Unless I receive additional info. it looks like option one is the best way to go, for now. Thank you, but keep the advice coming.
That will work but you don't have to. You can use a new ez track terminal section for each block.
No it doesnt complicate things. Plastic rail joiner is just used in place of a metal one.
This won't work. You need two power packs
There are other ways to do this, I just outlined what I did and showed you a pic,
Hope this helps more, Derek
Right now it is 4' x 8'. No plans to expand it, yet.
I am starting small with enough locos. and rolling stock to fill the space in between the oval track as a rail yard. The rolling stock is all advertising that started as a Hy-Vee train set. Hy-vee is a grocery store chain based in Iowa and located mainly throughout the mid west. The train set is from 1996. In fact 1996 is the number on the SD locomotive. Most of the original rail cars are have various Kraft products advertised on them, one car is a Log Cabin Syrup. I have since purchased a pink Gerber baby food reefer, a reefer with Heinz products advertised on it another reefer with Eggo advertised on it and a news print car. I also have 2 grain cars, one has Maxwell House Coffee advertised on it and the other has Hy-Vee brand butter on it.
The original set is an IHC with a Mehano locomotive. The cars purchased in addition are a mixture of IHC others. I think a couple of them may be Tyco. All of the cars and the loco. have been kit bashed and modified to use knuckle couplers, better quality trucks and wheels.
The new loco. I purchased is an Athearn Dakota and Iowa Railroad, or D&I, GP50. D&I is operated out of Sioux Falls, South Dakota and they have a yard in my city, Sioux City, Iowa.
The original train set was willed to me from my father in law.
I am done kit bashing and modifieing rolling stock and locomotives. Going froward the car and loco will already have knuckle couplers or i won't use it. The most I'll do is if it has plastic wheels i'll swap it out with metal.
To begin with all of my rail cars that are advertising related are not prototypical and have no real use in such a layout. That is why it will strictly be a rail yard with nothing but advertising rolling stock hauled by either the D&I or the Hy-Vee loco. Both loco's are local to my region and this advertising yard layout will strictly be for fantasy and fun.
The next rolling stock purchases will be from my local hobby shop and will be of cars that are local business in my regional area. For example. Cargill Foods, Terra Industries and IBP.
I have also done research on full size rolling stock I often see run through my area to see who owns or operates the cars. For a lot of them I see they are leased for individual companies to use.
As such once I obtain enough rolling stock my focus is going to be individual industries that I will swap out on my 4' x 8' island layout. For example grain cars leaving where it is loaded, pulling into a ethanol plant, then tankers leaving the ethanol plant to the fuel distribution facility where it is stored until needed by gas stations. This will symbolize 3 industries, farming or farm Co-Op, ethanol production and fuel distribution.
Another will be from a farm Co-Op that stores grains needed for beer production to a brewery and then to a distribution facility.
With the Cornerstone series plus other buildings in the2013 Walthers Reference Book I should be able to build as many layout options as I need that can be swapped out.
I don't know if I will build a permanent one or stick with the island style. My island is modular made up of 4 individual 2' x 4' sections, each supported by its own set of folding banquet table legs and connected with dowel pins in the middle, held together with strong draw catch hardware.
Sorry I went a bit over board on my answer but this is how I am going to build my layouts for right now.
Joe Staten Island West
I gotta ask then: Is DCC not an option at this point? The reason for asking is that with two-cab operation: The smaller the layout, the smaller your blocks will be and the more toggle switch throwing that will be required. You'll pretty much be glued to your control panel on your layout if you'll be moving rolling stock across those blocks frequently.
Now I have no problem with you sticking with DC. I'm just wondering if DCC would make it easier and more enjoyable for you in your circumstance. Since you only have/will have 2 locomotives, conversion would be less costly than down the road - i.e. should you want to go that route.
My ...
Or, you could convert to DCC and forget the blocks.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain Or, you could convert to DCC and forget the blocks. Rich
I have to agree with this quote from Rich,, after being in the hobby for about 55yrs and strictly a DC user,although I have a 3cab layout roughly 25x55 with a double track main line it entailed a large amount of wiring to accomplish that, it would have been so much easier had it been DCC..
Cheers, to you on whatever you decide to do.
Frank
I, too, would suggest that you consider DCC. When I returned to the hobby after a long absence, I thought DCC was something better suited to large, complex layouts. After building my own small layout, I realized that once one gets beyond a simple loop of track, DCC has great advantages. As Tom said above, block wiring and DC cab operations get very tedious if the blocks are too small, as they are on many small layouts.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
SUX V R40 Rider Yes, DCC is out of the question right now. Mainly because of the expense...I don't need to add to the frustration of trying to work with DCC right now until i get more experience with what i have.
Yes, DCC is out of the question right now. Mainly because of the expense...I don't need to add to the frustration of trying to work with DCC right now until i get more experience with what i have.
I don't know what sort of info you've gotten from friends or sources but DCC REALLY isn't all that complicated - or it doesn't have to be. In fact, I started out with hooking up a rudimentary Bachmann E-Z Command DCC system (that I bought for $53 in 2005) to my 4 x 8 with only two wires and was running two locomotives independently within minutes. It can be THAT simple.
I've migrate to a more sophisticated DCC system since then but I still only have one block for my 4 x 8 layout. Even with the E-Z Command and its limitations, I had a BLAST using it for the year that I had it. DCC made operating trains - for me - that much more fun.
SUX V R40 Rider With DCC doesn't every thing that runs on electricity HAVE TO BE decoded? Whether it is a turnout with a remote to every locomotive operated on the layout?
With DCC doesn't every thing that runs on electricity HAVE TO BE decoded? Whether it is a turnout with a remote to every locomotive operated on the layout?
No, it doesn't. You can operate your turnouts just like you do with DC. Or, you can operate them with ground throws. If you want to you can operate your turnouts via your DCC throttle but it isn't necessary. Personally, I would find that too cumbersome and would prefer either manual ground throws or switch machines run on a separate electrical bus.
With adding decoders to the locomotives doesn't the interior of the loco. have to be able to house the decoder and have it correctly connect to the motor?
Yes, but with many of the newer locomotives, this can be as simple as a plug 'n play install using a NMRA 8-pin plug or socket that comes with the locomotive. Lights, motor, and track picks are all conveniently hooked up through the NMRA connection. If room is tight (like with my Walthers SW1 switcher), you can often use smaller decoders (e.g an N- or Z-scale) inside a HO locomotive.
For steamers, there's usually plenty of room in the tender. With diesels, it really depends on the size of the locomotive. With your SD and Geep, I'm sure there would be plenty of room for a decoder. Depending on the model, there may even be a drop-in decoder.
SUX V R40 Rider With DCC doesn't every thing that runs on electricity HAVE TO BE decoded? Whether it is a turnout with a remote to every locomotive operated on the layout? With adding decoders to the locomotives doesn't the interior of the loco. have to be able to house the decoder and have it correctly connect to the motor?
With DCC doesn't every thing that runs on electricity HAVE TO BE decoded? Whether it is a turnout with a remote to every locomotive operated on the layout? With adding decoders to the locomotives doesn't the interior of the loco. have to be able to house the decoder and have it correctly connect to the motor?
No, you only need to use DCC for your locomotives. You *can* do more, but everything else is just an elaboration on a theme. You can do it but you do not need that. Keep your switches simple!
No, these DCC chips are quite small, most newer locomotives already have a PC board with a place to plug in the DCC chip. On my subway cars, there is a dummy pluck to remove, and to plug in the DCC thingie.
That said, I only have one LION and want to run eight trains at once. Thus I have built something different.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
SUX V R40 RiderYes, DCC is out of the question right now. Mainly because of the expense. I have had enough frustrations with not receiving complete information or receiving inaccurate information from sources i thought i could trust along with other challenges with building this small layout. It almost got to the point where i was ready to peak it in, cut my loses and give up on this me hobby altogether. I don't need to add to the frustration of trying to work with DCC right now until i get more experience with what i have.
You have already received misleading information in this very thread about DC block control.
First, I'll address the question of DC vs DCC. For the specific scenario you describe - one train circling an oval on autopilot on a 4x8 while another switches the yard or spurs while mostly staying clear the autopilot train - control of both trains by one person is problemmatic no matter what control system you use. How long does it take for the train to make a lap on the oval? How many minutes or seconds between needs for the main by the switcher? What I am trying to point out is that your operational scenario may be impractical - but that depends on the actual track plan.
The big advantage of DCC is being able to operate mulitple trains on shared trackage without worrying about blocks and getting blocks selected. How important this flexibility is depends on how often the switcher needs to share or use the main. The other advantage of DCC is the ability to really use and enjoy sound-equipped locomotives down the road.
Cost - since you already have the 2 power packs for DC - is going to hinge on whether or not you want a second DCC throttle for a second operator. For one person operations, the $160 Power Cab or a Zephyr is sufficient. The second throttle is going to push you close to $250 total. DC might cost you another $20 - $40 in block controls and a book on wiring. If you want walk-around DC throttles with smoother control of your engines than a train set power pack, you will probably spend $40 per throttle (or MRC Tech power pack).
The rest of this post assumes you have decided to remain with DC. Run, don't walk, to your hobby shop or train show and get a book that discusses DC block wiring. A used, older book like Westcott's will do just fine. If you want to use the Atlas electrical products, Atlas has a wiring book on how to use their products. Note that the Atlas Selector (you will probably need 2-3, no Controller needed unless you have a turntable) can be replaced with 4 SPDT center off toggle switches.
The underlying philosophy of DC block control is that you use the same power pack or throttle to control the train wherever it goes on the layout. The blocks - electrically isolated sections of track - use a toggle (or slide on the Selector) to choose which power pack or throttle is connected to that block of track. By sequentially choosing throttle A as train 1 goes from one block to the next, throttle A controls train 1 at all times. To keep the train in continuous motion, both the block the train is in and the block the train is about to enter must have throttle A selected. All other blocks can be off or given to throttle B for train 2.
From the above description, you need at least 4 blocks on the oval for two trains to chase each other under separate control. At the same time, operations are much easier if a block is longer than your normal longest train (they won't always be). Passing tracks become their own block. Spurs capable of holding a short train should probably be a separate train as well. A small yard (with its yard lead) is often wired as a single block because of the difficulty in having more than one locomotive in the yard at a time.
The wiring book will explain this in much greater detail with some helpful diagrams to allow you to understand what you are doing.
The blocks are created by installing insulated rail joiners or cutting gaps in the rail at the block boundaries.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W (still using DC at home)
The Athearn GP50 should have an 8-pin plug or socket (2 rows of four) but you'll have to remove the shell to double-check. Worse case is that you'll have to hard-wire the decoder, which isn't all that difficult if you're handy with a soldering iron.
More than likely the SD40-2 will not have the NMRA plug. However, as long as the motor is isolated from the frame and you have room under the hood, you can hard-wire a decoder into it.
Don't get flustered get educated. What works for me might not work for you. I agree with Fred, you need to do more reading.
This is by Andy Sperandeo and discusses basic DC wiring with an introduction to DCC
http://www.amazon.com/Railroad-Wiring-Second-Edition-Railroader/dp/0890243492/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1354067210&sr=8-1&keywords=HO+Dc+Wiring
This book explaining DC wiring with the use of Atlas products has been around for over 50 years
http://www.amazon.com/Atlas-Model-Railroad-Complete-Wiring/dp/B0006KSLE6/ref=pd_vtp_b_6
Check out Tony's for the FAQs on DCC
http://tonystrains.com/tonystips/dccprimer/index.htm
And Finally from our hosts you can download some PDF's on model railroad wiring
http://www.kalmbachstore.com/modeltrains-railroading-model-railroading-digital-downloads-downloadable-articles-dc-wiring-and-digi.html
EDIT: BTW I upgraded to DCC a few years ago and haven't looked back
SUX V R40 RiderWhen I have asked the question of how to run two locomotives on a DC powered layout I get the same answer: "block it", but no one elaborates on how to do so and I have gotten no where on how to do so. Well now I am asking: HOW to block it? I need some type of easy to understand/read diagram or other reliable resource to look at that will show me how to do this.
Here is a drawing I created to give you an idea. The layout is a simple circle of track with one siding.
The inner rail is left without any gaps and is called a common rail. As you can see, both packs are connected to it directly via the black wire.
The outside rail is cut into sections called "blocks" using either an insulated rail joiner or a thin cut to form a "gap". Power is supplied from either pack by routing the red wire to the Atlas Selector and then on to the outside rail.
Refer to block 1:
If the Atlas selector switch is in the top position, power is provided by the power pack on the LH side, "Cab A".
If in the center position the train is shut off because no power is routed to this area.
If in the lower position, power is provided by the "Cab B" power pack.
Block 2 controls the siding. A train can be parked, or powered with either pack while on it.
If all the blocks are in the A or top position, the LH pack controls the entire layout.
fwright was dead on about the DC lowdown. All you need is a spool of wire, an Atlas selector or two, a good Atlas book and a second power pack. Very inexpensive and easy.
Many people get into this hobby and unfortunately, some do not stay for whatever reason. I always recommend that new uses start out slowly.
BTW, my layout is a 4x8 which uses 2 DC cabs and 4 Atlas selectors and I am very happy with it.
Jim
[Contents deleted. Posted in the wrong thread. ]
Here is some more detail on my layout, I need to describe this before I advise what I am going to try. Remember I am using Bachmann EZ Track. So far I only have one turnout connected to the mainline that the only current siding is connected to. At the end of the switch section of the track is a 18" radius curve to reverse the direction, then the long straight section with a Hayes bumper at the end, this makes up this siding. The reverse curve is so the straight section is parallel to the straight section of the of the main line which is right next to the siding. Eventually there will be more and more sidings as I build the yard ladder.
After reading the great sources of information provided I am thinking of trying this:
I do have some more questions about this application. First from what I have read, this will work, correct?
I know when a locomotive is traveling over the rail join with the plastic joiners and small gap both power packs have to be set in the same direction. But when the locomotives travels over the gap where the plastic rail joiners are being used and with both trucks having power to them when the loco. is straddling this section is one truck being powered by power A and the other by power pack B until it completes traversing this section and both sets of wheels are either completely on the siding powered by power pack B or on the switch which is powered by power pack A along with the rest of the mainline? If this is how it operates is this hard on the motors even if the speed of the power packs is turned down, but still won't match each other exactly?
For what you say you want to do, switch on the indie loop with one loco and run the other on the outside loop, there is a simpler way. Just gap the rails connecting the inner and outer loops, connect 1 power pack to the outside loop, and one power pack to the inside loop.
You can still move from one loop to the other - just make sure both power packs are set for the same direction and close to the same speed so there isn;t a sudden jolt crossing from one to the other.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
There is no inside loop. The inside of the oval will be the yard ladder connected to the oval, or outside loop. It is at the first turnout that connects to the first siding, and right now my only siding, that will have the plastic rail joiners and gap.
I am asking what happens to the locomotive when it is straddling this gap or rail joint until both sets of wheels are either completely on the siding power by power pack B or on the part of the switch that is connected to the mainline/oval/outside loop which is operated by power pack A.
My biggest concern is if this is hard on the motors, even with the power packs set in the same direction and close to the same speed.
This almost sounds like a hand off type application, where for maybe a second or 2 half the loco is powered by one power pack and the other half powered by the other until the hand off is complete where the entire thing is operated by only one power source.
Am I on the right track here, or am I still missing something?
SUX V R40 Rider After reading the great sources of information provided I am thinking of trying this I will likely have to use a barrier strip because only so many spade connecters can be attached to the power pack.
After reading the great sources of information provided I am thinking of trying this
I will likely have to use a barrier strip because only so many spade connecters can be attached to the power pack.
No need for a barrier strip at this this time. The Atlas Selector is your barrier strip. The spades attach to the terminals across the top. Note only one wire is attached to each terminal of the power packs in the drawing.
The selector or a toggle switch is required, not optional.
SUX V R40 Rider I am asking what happens to the locomotive when it is straddling this gap or rail joint until both sets of wheels are either completely on the siding power by power pack B or on the part of the switch that is connected to the mainline/oval/outside loop which is operated by power pack A. My biggest concern is if this is hard on the motors, even with the power packs set in the same direction and close to the same speed.
Not a concern, you may notice a momentary surge or slow down as it crosses the gap.
If the packs are in opposite directions, the engine will sit over the gap. Depending on the settings and design of the packs, a breaker may open until the direction mismatch is corrected. Or the engine may sit over the gap and "hunt" back and forth. If this happens shut down one of the packs ASAP.
SUX V R40 Rider This almost sounds like a hand off type application, where for maybe a second or 2 half the loco is powered by one power pack and the other half powered by the other until the hand off is complete where the entire thing is operated by only one power source. Am I on the right track here, or am I still missing something?
Some what.
When operating, you set both your circle and spur to cab A using the selector.
Using cab A, you proceed into the insulated spur. Cab B is not being used.
Once clear of the gap, you can swich the selector to cab B. Now the circle is still powered by A and the spur by B.
The hand off as you call it is done, or should be done after you pass a gap, not before. When done using the above method, the engine does not momentarily become powered by A and B.
SUX V R40 RiderWhat if for right now i want to avoid the atlas selector? Remember i am using Bachmann ez track with terminal rerailers where needed. As i described i am going to connect either 9inch terminal retailer to the turnout and this is where the plastic rail joiners will be used. Or right after the curve use a 9 inch straight terminal retailer.The turnout which is connected to the mainline will be operated by power pack A. The terminal rerailer used as the entrance, after the remote turnout, to the siding will be operated by power pack B. Ever turnout and siding connected to the first will likewise be operated by power pack B.
You really don't want to do what you are proposing. What you are suggesting - one power pack controls one area of the layout, and the other controls another area - is called section control, not block control. Section control has several flaws in comparison to block control:
Please do not use section control on a small layout.
Block control insists that the same power pack control its train wherever it goes on the layout. Block control normally has one power pack connected to both sides of a block boundary, so there is no lurching or feedback current. To use block control, you do need a toggle switch or Atlas Selector slide switch for each block, as Jim showed in his beautiful diagrams.
Yes, you will have to cut the wires from the Bachmann terminal strips before they reach the power pack, and tie them to the block toggle or Selector. Yes, you will need a Bachmann terminal track in each block of the layout. Or you can use Atlas rail joiners with wires attached instead of the Bachmann track terminals. As you gain more experience, you can solder your own wires to rail joiners or rails.
hope this helps
Fred W
Randy, that was my initial suggestion in the first response to the OP. Using the Atlas selector is an upgrade but in the initial post he wanted to run one loco on the loop and the other one in the yard. Our suggestion is the simplest, yet gets the job done.