Does anyone know whether Soundtraxx plans to sell their Sound Value decoder (as found in the 2-6-0 Alco loco) separately? If they could price this thing in the $40 range to compete with the Digitrax and MRC offerings, I'd certainly buy them!
Hornblower
SoundTraxx has not sold any Bachmann decoders separately and will not according to the Bachmann rep at the Bachmann site.
Bachmann sells the “sound module” used in the 2-8-8-4 and Heisler but no decoders that SoundTraxx supplies for the on board Bachmann locos.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
I was just wondering exactly what they do for the Sound Value decoders. I would think the production volumes are just too low to have to deal with 'binning' like they do with CPUs and GPUs - parts that don;t test for the higher speeds are sold as a lower version, or parts with some defective sections are sold as a lesser version with fewer of those sections. As in, I can;t imagine SOundtraxx is actually getting many chips with the equalizer and reverb sections blown out, so they just disable access and sell it as the value chip to Bachmann. And I cant imagine they fabbed up a completely diffeent chip for this. Again, volume is just too low. I'm thinking they are all the same chip, the value line just has certain features disabled by virtue of different firmware. Which means they really aren't any cheaper to produce, since it is otherwise the exact same chip.
I could be wrong, they could be binned chips, but the volume relative to an Intel, AMD< or nVidia is just WAY too low for this to make much sense.
Now, this doesn't mean you can make a value chip into a full one, there's no end-user way to reprogram Soundtraxx chips.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker I was just wondering exactly what they do for the Sound Value decoders. I would think the production volumes are just too low to have to deal with 'binning' like they do with CPUs and GPUs - parts that don;t test for the higher speeds are sold as a lower version, or parts with some defective sections are sold as a lesser version with fewer of those sections. As in, I can;t imagine SOundtraxx is actually getting many chips with the equalizer and reverb sections blown out, so they just disable access and sell it as the value chip to Bachmann. And I cant imagine they fabbed up a completely diffeent chip for this. Again, volume is just too low. I'm thinking they are all the same chip, the value line just has certain features disabled by virtue of different firmware. Which means they really aren't any cheaper to produce, since it is otherwise the exact same chip. I could be wrong, they could be binned chips, but the volume relative to an Intel, AMD< or nVidia is just WAY too low for this to make much sense. Now, this doesn't mean you can make a value chip into a full one, there's no end-user way to reprogram Soundtraxx chips. --Randy
Lots of assumption here.
You could email Bruce who use to own Litchfield Station for some years and is closely associated with SoundTraxx but I figure he may not say much as a lot of this is proprietary information.
Bachmann and SoundTraxx do not want other decoder sound companies knowing what is being done to keep the cost down.
A few years ago Bruce sent out a couple photos and a little info to customers about the machine SoundTraxx uses to produce and program the decoders. Quite a machine.
http://www.mrdccu.com/
I suspect some here might run off to other forums and spout of about the sound value decoders about what they “assume” is happening.
Well, Intel, AMD, and nVidia really didn't want people knowing they did the whole binning thing, either. Eventually it got figured out. Possibly some of the same techniques used to figure this out on CPU and GPU chips could be applied to sound chips - but the equipment isn't cheap and, frankly, the demand is too low. No one expect possibly me is even the least it curious about what makes SOuntraxx, Loksound, and QSI decoders 'go'. Plus there's no set standard for operation, which is partof how differencesin computer SPU chips was determined. We already know Digitrax uses a PIC chip, with proprietary firmware to control the sounds. To alter the sound patterns (the 'script') you have to delve into this low level code.
If someone quotes me out of context, well, that's their problem. I put up all possibilities, not just an assumption of binning 'defective' parts. Because I don't know, and I doubt anyone from Soundtraxx will tell us.
Notice I also said htat even if they simply disable features in an otherwise identical chip, there's no way to 'restore' the missing functionality, since thereis no way to reprogram the chips. If someone reads that rather clear statement the wrong way and gets a loco with a SOund Value decoder and expects to be able to upgrade it, well, again - can't be responsible for failure at reading comprehension.
Has anyone physically looked at the decoders in the Bachmann engines? Are they as large as Tsunamis?
I think part of the answer here might by economic. Yes, Soundtraxx would take the entire low-end market away from Digitrax and MRC if they sold these decoders in the same price range, but they would also destroy the market for their own high-end decoders.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I think the major difference is the reverb and sound mixxer not being on the value decoder. As far as offering a low end/cost decoder affecting their high end ones I look at it this way: people are buying Digitrax and MRC because of the cost factor. Soundtrax sells theirs because of the features and quality. If they sell the value line, they are selling a quality product with less features for a lower cost. Think Cadilack or Chevy,Ford or Lincoln. Joe
rrinker Notice I also said htat even if they simply disable features in an otherwise identical chip, there's no way to 'restore' the missing functionality, since thereis no way to reprogram the chips. If someone reads that rather clear statement the wrong way and gets a loco with a SOund Value decoder and expects to be able to upgrade it, well, again - can't be responsible for failure at reading comprehension. --Randy
I think that the two decoders are physically identical. I had a problem with a Tsunami in a ValueLine loco and ended up speaking with a Soundtraxx rep. What was happening was that I was inputting a value into a particular CV and the engine was reacting (motor bumping) as though the value had been accepted, but there was no change to the actual CV output. What he told me was that the motor would react as if the CV had been accepted, but that particular CV had not been included with that decoder. My non-technical impression was that this had to do with how the decoder was programmed, and the ValueLine decoder didn't get programmed with everything.
However, I suppose that one could ask how much it actually costs to program a decoder initially, how labor intense that process is, and does the elimination of programming the extra CVs really account for the price differential between the "normal" and the ValueLine decoders.
Sort of what I was getting at. If it IS the exact same chip, with some of the CVs left out of the oeprating firmware, then chip manufactureing costs will be exactly the same because it is the same chip. ANd loading a different firmware - if the cost differential can even be measured, it would eb pennies, if that much.
So, agreements with Bachmann notwithstanding, they probably couldn;t offer the stripped version for sale at a Digitrax price point and still make money off it, so even if there weren't any agreements with Bachmann (and indeed maybe there is nothing in the contract that says Soundtraxx can;t sell that version of the decoder), it wouldn;t pay. Selling to Bachmann as an OEM works because htey can leaqve out the instructions, the packaging, and theoretically the support, plus there's some fixed quantity sales, it's not a fluctuating amount like direct retail sales. If Bachmann contracted for 1000 decoders and end up selling 800 locos, that's their problem, not Soundtraxx's. If Sountraxx makes 1000 decoders and sells only 800, they are stuck with the other 200 in inventory, eating into their profit margins.So it make ssnese to do OEM versions for sale direct tot he manufacturer with customized features where it may not make sense to sell the reduced feature unit directly to end users and retailers.
I find it hard to believe that Soundtraxx would make a sound decoder that they could sell for $100+ and then intentionally disable parts of it so they can sell it for less money to Bachmann. It's much more likely that the new "Sound Value" decoders are - like the Tsunami decoders Bachmann used in the past - a different , simplified Tsunami with fewer options. Soundtraxx used to offer more than one level of decoder before the Tsunami, an "LC" low-cost one and an assortment of higher priced ones, some with sound and motion and control and some that were sound only. Seems to me they're doing the same formula here, creating a good but stripped-down version of their Tsunami so that Bachmann can put it in their engines without adding $100+ to the cost of the engine.
All speculation.
Go join the Bachmann forums and ask the reps there. There are at least two reps. Sigh.
It is ok to join other forums.
Ok. some might be bored.
wjstix I find it hard to believe that Soundtraxx would make a sound decoder that they could sell for $100+ and then intentionally disable parts of it so they can sell it for less money to Bachmann. It's much more likely that the new "Sound Value" decoders are - like the Tsunami decoders Bachmann used in the past - a different , simplified Tsunami with fewer options. Soundtraxx used to offer more than one level of decoder before the Tsunami, an "LC" low-cost one and an assortment of higher priced ones, some with sound and motion and control and some that were sound only. Seems to me they're doing the same formula here, creating a good but stripped-down version of their Tsunami so that Bachmann can put it in their engines without adding $100+ to the cost of the engine.
Of course you could be right. But I would think that if the SoundValue decoder were very different from the regular Tsunami, it would have its own reference manual like the LC decoder has. Looking at the Soundtraxx website, the same Tsunami Diesel Technical Reference manual applies for all of the Tsunami sound decoders. And the only way you can tell which CVs do or do not apply to an OEM decoder is to look at the Factory Installed Decoder quick link on the Manual page and pick one's OEM from the list.
As someone mentioned, best way to get an answer to this question is to contact Bachmann or Soundtraxx and ask.
I just found these quotes from the soundtraxx website:
'Tsunami Technology' generally means that these manufacturers have elected to use a product based on our top-of-the-line 16-bit Digital Sound Decoder. It operates in both DC and DCC modes and provides many advanced motor control features. The specific sounds, number of functions, sounds and lighting effects will likely differ between manufacturers. These decoders, while manufactured and designed by SoundTraxx are made to order according to a set of specifications provided by each model maker. ( http://www.soundtraxx.com/factory/index.php )
and
Is the decoder in my model a “Full Tsunami”?All factory-installed locomotives contain custom decoders designed to meet the specifications set forth by their manufacturer. They contain the same software found in the Tsunami, including multiple whistles/ horns, industry-leading 16 bit digital sound, and many other great features. Some features may be limited by the manufacturer’s specification. ( http://www.soundtraxx.com/factory/OEM%20pages/faq_factory.php )
Which further enhances my theory (yes, we ARE just speculating - because since business agreements tend to be proprietary information, no one involved is likely to share with us - also, it's really not of any real importance other than curiousity's sake) that is it the same chip with different software.
To make actually different chips, you would have to change the masks and run a bunch of wafers, then switch to a different mask, run another batch, each time you switched to a different OEM version with different features. Not to mention have to compeltely develop new fimrware for each version. Versus make all the same chip, and the same firmware with certain features bypassed, ut the others identical to the 'full' version. It has been mentioned that Soundtraxx can reprogram the sounds, so an OEM version with only 1 whistle instead of 12 is simply a matter of loading only 1 whistle vs all 12 into whatever sort of 'sound slots' are used internally.
We're also talking about a single wholesale contract. Soundtraxx can run say 25,000 decoders, ship them, bill them, and get paid at one time. That contract makes it very easy for Sountraxx to finance the whole works and use the bank's money for the project. Drives costs way down that way.
Martin Myers
mfm37 We're also talking about a single wholesale contract. Soundtraxx can run say 25,000 decoders, ship them, bill them, and get paid at one time. That contract makes it very easy for Sountraxx to finance the whole works and use the bank's money for the project. Drives costs way down that way. Martin Myers
Since you would need spares for warranty repairs anyway, wouldn't it be just as easy to produce 35,000 decoders, deliver the contracted 25,000 decoders (which would likely pay for the whole run), then offer the surplus decoders individually once the original warranty period for the complete loco expires?
hornblower Since you would need spares for warranty repairs anyway, wouldn't it be just as easy to produce 35,000 decoders, deliver the contracted 25,000 decoders (which would likely pay for the whole run), then offer the surplus decoders individually once the original warranty period for the complete loco expires?
My educated guess would be that Bachmann is prohibited by contract from selling the decoders separately, which is confirmed by some of the other posts.
Remember the Soundtraxx - Bachmann linkup is not just one way. Kader, the Chinese holding company that owns the 2 largest Chinese model train manufacturers, also owns Bachmann. Soundtraxx owns Blackstone, the HOn3 importer. Blackstone contracts with Kader for their production. Kader gets partially disabled Tsunami decoders at a bargain price.
Also interesting to note is that the Tsunami decoders in the Blackstone locomotives have custom software and sound sets compared to a retail Tsunami. So Soundtraxx is used to doing different software loads into their Tsunami hardware.
The August 2012 MR review of the Bachmann 2-6-0 leaves little doubt that the decoder in question is a Tsunami with specific features disabled. Bachmann gets the prestige of the Tsunami brand without the support issues for the full and extensive CV set of the retail Tsunami (as do other OEMs who use lower-cost Tsunami decoders). Soundtraxx keeps the retail pricing of the Tsunami intact by not allowing resale of the dumbed-down Tsunami.
just my thoughts
Fred W
Now add the cost of storing those extras in a warehouse, inventory tax, insurance, sales staff when they finally go on the market. In other words, overhead costs Continue that overhead cost until the "extras" are sold. Add the cost of warranty to these decoders. Add profit to each of those costs and the final wholesale value can be determined. Then ship to dealers, add the dealer's mark up which will include all of the above costs and more and you get the retail price. Is the product still worth doing? Apparently not at this time or maybe they are already on dealer's shelves at the correct price.
Well, I guess then that the only way I will be purchasing more sound decoders is already installed inside one of Bachmann's Sound Value locomotives at a good internet price. I simply refuse to buy any decoder alone at $100+ plus the cost of a speaker when I have yet to pay $100 for any of the locomotives I own!
This discussion leaves open the question. If the chips are Physically identical could one "flash" program a chip in the same was BIOS on a computer is flashed to upgrade older chips?
My guess is that even if that is possible neither Soundtraxx or Bachmann would release the source code.
Joe Staten Island West
Already covered that one, I think. Since it seems possible to send your decoders back to SOundtraxx to swap them out, it seems like they internally have the capability to change the programming. Since unliek all other sound decoder manufacturers (except MRC - I don;t count them), they have decided not to make this capability available to the end-user, there would be no way to accomplish an upgrade, short of them possibly offering a for a fee upgrade to convert the Sound Value to full Tsunami - should they ever offer such an upgrade path, I guess that would answer most of the speculation about just what exactly is different other than some software. Really all you'd gain though would be the reverb stuff, having multiple sound choices isn't really important once the decoder is installed in a specific loco.
I do not know is the Sound Value decoder will ever be sold seperatly but if they do ever based on both MR and my own review of the Alco 2-6-0 (posted on the Bachmann site) I would certainly try them.
hornblower mfm37 We're also talking about a single wholesale contract. Soundtraxx can run say 25,000 decoders, ship them, bill them, and get paid at one time. That contract makes it very easy for Sountraxx to finance the whole works and use the bank's money for the project. Drives costs way down that way. Martin Myers Since you would need spares for warranty repairs anyway, wouldn't it be just as easy to produce 35,000 decoders, deliver the contracted 25,000 decoders (which would likely pay for the whole run), then offer the surplus decoders individually once the original warranty period for the complete loco expires?
Because this isn't a Soundtraxx issue. They are only the supplier of the decoders, they build as many as the contract calls for, and at the price they are selling them for, once delivered they have no further obligations. The buyer assumes the risk.
If it fails under warranty, you talk to Bachmann, who supplies a replacement. Same goes for support issues. They would have to buy some for warranty replacements in addition to those used in production.
If you bought the decoder in a Soundtraxx package, then Soundtraxx is responsible for support and service under warranty. Your warranty is with them.
Those low cost decoders are manufactured to meet a specified price point, and in order to do that, you can't throw in a warranty and support without increasing the price.