Brendan BuschiI could get a DCC unit like the Bachmann 44902 EZ Command DCC Control System and use it with my locomotive as well, but I have no need to do that
I dont recommend that system. It is similar in functionality to your DCS commander, maybe even less so.
Brendan,
Glad the DC solution will work.
Hope you, and the grandchildren, get much enjoyment from the layout and trains.
That is, after all, why we are all here, we enjoy the hobby.
Now, go enjoy your trains!
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
Brendan Buschi The bulk of my resentment/frustration is with MTH. I believe they should have technical solutions. I believe the dealer who sold me my equipment was acting in good faith. He was not as knowledgeable as I would have hoped for. Most of the dealers I spoke with were also not as knowledgeable as I would have hoped for. I like the equipment I have. I have the latest version of an DCS locomotive. It can work on DC or DCC layouts. I tested it on DC and it worked just fine. I could get a DCC unit like the Bachmann 44902 EZ Command DCC Control System and use it with my locomotive as well, but I have no need to do that. The only thing that stymied me was the reverse loop. I am going to try to repost the oped I wrote. I believe it clearly articulates my concern about technical support. I'd be interested to hear what you have to say about it. Here goes: Dear Editor, There is a scene in the movie Chef with Jon Favreau in which Jon explains to his son why they cannot serve burnt bread to their customers. His explanation is sublime. Personal responsibility seems to be going the way of the dodo. Many people resent being held accountable for their actions. In this they are often reinforced by others. It is not uncommon for businesses to hire people to function as customer service representatives based primarily on a willingness to work for low wages as opposed to any particular competence in their supposed areas of expertise. My personal experiences with high tech customer support have led me to brace myself before making a call because I fear I will waste a lot of time and not get the help I need. I am always ecstatic and grateful when I experience the contrary. I could be talking about any organization or human endeavor here, not just customer support. This is all very sad, but there is another deeply personal aspect to all this. Lack of taking personal responsibility goes hand in hand with not experiencing what it is to take pride in one’s work. People who take pride in their work find meaning and rewards independent of their employer or their financial compensation. People who take pride in their work understand quality and feel a sense of accomplishment that someone who does not take pride in his/her work will never experience or understand. We seem to be living in a time when lower expectations are the rule and lowering the bar is the accepted way to establish a standard. The least common denominator in terms of personal growth and achievement is more and more what we are encouraged to strive for. There are a lot of things that contribute to this. We all take part to varying degrees in the process. The dysfunction we have in our federal government is a byproduct of this along with everything else. Winston Churchill once said, “There is no doubt whatever about the influence of architecture and structure upon human character and action. We make our buildings and afterwards they make us. They regulate the course of our lives.” He was addressing the English Architectural Society at the time but his comment is relevant to anything we shape or design – be it government, religion, business, the arts, social networks, etc. I will miss Jon Stewart on The Daily Show. He is excellent at helping us gain insight and perspective. Thank you,
The bulk of my resentment/frustration is with MTH. I believe they should have technical solutions. I believe the dealer who sold me my equipment was acting in good faith. He was not as knowledgeable as I would have hoped for. Most of the dealers I spoke with were also not as knowledgeable as I would have hoped for.
I like the equipment I have. I have the latest version of an DCS locomotive. It can work on DC or DCC layouts. I tested it on DC and it worked just fine. I could get a DCC unit like the Bachmann 44902 EZ Command DCC Control System and use it with my locomotive as well, but I have no need to do that. The only thing that stymied me was the reverse loop.
I am going to try to repost the oped I wrote. I believe it clearly articulates my concern about technical support. I'd be interested to hear what you have to say about it. Here goes:
Dear Editor,
There is a scene in the movie Chef with Jon Favreau in which Jon explains to his son why they cannot serve burnt bread to their customers. His explanation is sublime.
Personal responsibility seems to be going the way of the dodo. Many people resent being held accountable for their actions. In this they are often reinforced by others. It is not uncommon for businesses to hire people to function as customer service representatives based primarily on a willingness to work for low wages as opposed to any particular competence in their supposed areas of expertise. My personal experiences with high tech customer support have led me to brace myself before making a call because I fear I will waste a lot of time and not get the help I need. I am always ecstatic and grateful when I experience the contrary. I could be talking about any organization or human endeavor here, not just customer support.
This is all very sad, but there is another deeply personal aspect to all this. Lack of taking personal responsibility goes hand in hand with not experiencing what it is to take pride in one’s work. People who take pride in their work find meaning and rewards independent of their employer or their financial compensation. People who take pride in their work understand quality and feel a sense of accomplishment that someone who does not take pride in his/her work will never experience or understand.
We seem to be living in a time when lower expectations are the rule and lowering the bar is the accepted way to establish a standard. The least common denominator in terms of personal growth and achievement is more and more what we are encouraged to strive for. There are a lot of things that contribute to this. We all take part to varying degrees in the process. The dysfunction we have in our federal government is a byproduct of this along with everything else.
Winston Churchill once said, “There is no doubt whatever about the influence of architecture and structure upon human character and action. We make our buildings and afterwards they make us. They regulate the course of our lives.” He was addressing the English Architectural Society at the time but his comment is relevant to anything we shape or design – be it government, religion, business, the arts, social networks, etc.
I will miss Jon Stewart on The Daily Show. He is excellent at helping us gain insight and perspective.
Thank you,
I am in complete agrement with your thoughts on the current state of customer service and pride in ones work.
Interestingly enough, my day job is restoring old houses........Winston was spot on!
Unfortunately, the retail model train business has become highly price competitive and brick and mortar stores have a hard time staying in business against mail order web based discounters - let alone providing knowledgeable help. not like in my days in that business....
Go to go now, take care,
Sheldon
Thanks for taking the time to give me some background on your choice of MTH.
You spoke earlier about customer service. As someone who worked in the retail hobby business and helped a lot of people get started with model trains, I really feel that the retailer who sold you the MTH products without making it clear that you were buying a closed proprietary control system that was not compatable with other brands was very irresponsible and was just trying to "make a sale".
Bad customer service in my view........
I just got an email from Dave Hikel. In it he sent me the following link: http://www.azatrax.com/reverse-loop-system-1.html#snap-switch
This is a solution for automating a reverse loop for DCS. Dave says that, "The only difference with your setup from the diagram is that you will be switching polarity on the loop track rather than the track into the loop. Azatrax designed their diagram for conventional DC, so we modify it slightly for DCS." You need to make sure you wire it so you switch the polarity inside the loop.
So I think this is the solution for wiring an automated DCS reverse loop. I am going to do it manually, but I appreciate knowing how to do it automatically. I like this solution better than the one suggested by Dallee. Here is the link to their solution:
https://www.dallee.com/PDFs/Dallee%20WG21.pdf
If you look on page 36 of their wiring guide you will see Dallee's solution.
I've learned a bit with all this. My number one question is why isn't this information available directly from MTH? They could have provided the answers for either doing it manually or automatically.
All that being said, I wil be getting in a track order this week. I will be able to test this all out and I will post the results when I am done.
I just noticed that my last went up right away. I thought I would confirm that with another post.
Sheldon I chose MTH's DCS equipment because that is what I saw at the dealer's location and it seemed just fine. I had no idea what I was doing. I never heard of DCC or DCS before. I had no experience with HO before.
I truly like the locomotive I got. It is very detailed and I like that about it. The specific locomotive was chosen based upon its color - my grandchildren like orange so I got a locomotive that had orange as its standout color - its an Interstate Diesel.
The DCS Commander is fine also. I find it easy to use.
I do plan to get at least one more locomotive when everything is up and running fully tested. It's conceiveable that I might get a third locomotive as well, but that's not a sure thing. The next locomotive will be a steam engine. I want the grandchildren to know there are different types of engines. I have no problem getting MTH DCS equipment for the next locomotive or locomotives. If I do eventually get a third locomotive it will probably be a subway.
The only thing that has been a problem is the reversing loop. I think I can solve that and then I should be just fine. I'm not sure I can automate it, but that's not a problem.
If I were starting over from scratch I would truly look at DCC before making a decision.
I resent how MTH is dealing with the issue of reversing loops. I did a post that hasn't shown up here. I'm not sure why. I tried to explain my frustration in general with technal support and included an oped I wrote for my local newspaper about the subject. I thought it would help clarify my perspective on the issue of technical support and help people better understand my feelings on the matter.
Thank you for your post.
Brendan Buschi Hello, I just stumbled on this by Googling. I am 70 years old. I haven't had a train set since I was a small boy. I want to build a layout with my grandchildren. I am using ho gauge with the MTH Commander. I have a new DCS locomotive. I want to build a reversing loop. I am using Atlas Code 83 snap track. I am using an Atlas 560 Wye to enter the loop. I know I need to put insulator on the 4 track ends coming out of the wye. Then what? I believe I need an autoreversing module like the AR1 but I can't confirm this. I spoke with the Digitrax support staff and the guy was hostile and rude - absolutely no help and I'm looking to buy something. Others have told me with DCS I don't need anything but the insulators on the track ends, but I can't confirm this. I will eventually call MTH, but its frustrating not to have information on this readily available. Did you successfully build a reverse loop for a DCS system? If you did, can you tell me what you used?
Hello, I just stumbled on this by Googling. I am 70 years old. I haven't had a train set since I was a small boy. I want to build a layout with my grandchildren. I am using ho gauge with the MTH Commander. I have a new DCS locomotive. I want to build a reversing loop. I am using Atlas Code 83 snap track. I am using an Atlas 560 Wye to enter the loop. I know I need to put insulator on the 4 track ends coming out of the wye. Then what? I believe I need an autoreversing module like the AR1 but I can't confirm this. I spoke with the Digitrax support staff and the guy was hostile and rude - absolutely no help and I'm looking to buy something. Others have told me with DCS I don't need anything but the insulators on the track ends, but I can't confirm this. I will eventually call MTH, but its frustrating not to have information on this readily available. Did you successfully build a reverse loop for a DCS system? If you did, can you tell me what you used?
Do yourself a favor. Cut your losses and dump the MTH/DCS. It is too unconventional as you are finding out. With a more conventional DCC system, you will not run into the compatibilty issues that you are experiencing with MTH/DCS.
Rich
Alton Junction
ndbprrHow is a dcs decoder built in that it can not be removed and replaced with a dcc decoder?
But why would someone pay MTH prices and then remove the decoder to install a DCC decoder? Especially considering that most of the locos offered by MTH are offered by others with DCC and sound - in many cases with better detail for less money.....
Long before DCC or DCS there were various wiring schemes that allowed multiple trains to be controlled on a single route with DC, by isolating progressive sections of track and providing various systems to assign those sections to different throttles. I will not go into more detail because it is not relavant to this conversation. But I bring it up as part of the issue of manual DC reversing.
On a well designed DC layout with reversing loops the mainline and the reversing loops should each have seperate reversing switches, and it is generally preferred that these be seperate from any reversing switch on a hand held throttle or throttle station.
Generally they would be on some sort of control panel with a track diagram. The mainline switch would typically be defined as EAST-WEST and the reverse loop switch as NORMAL-REVERSE, indicating the direction of entry into the loop.
Normal train operation would still be reversed with the switch on the throttle. Reverse loop operation would be handled with these other switches.
Example: The train is moving east toward the reverse loop, the reversing switch for the main is set EAST. The turnout into the reverse loop is set for the most common direction of use so that reversing switch is set NORMAL. The polarity of the trackage is all correctly aligned to allow the train to proceed into the the loop.
Once the train has entered the loop, the switch for the main is changed to WEST, and the turnout is aligned to allow the train back onto the main. Polarity is now correct for the train to exit. The train is now traveling WEST and the mainline reverser is set WEST.
Now, with DCS or DCC, if you change the polarity manually under a moving train, you may have issues with loss of sound or hesitation of the loco, but they should keep traveling in the orginal direction - forward/reverse.
Hope this info helps. If you need a wiring digram several good DC books are readily available with that info, it is pretty basic and long standing DC practice.
If I may ask, what attracted you to MTH out of the wide field of products available in HO?
And, I will qualify my question in advance - if your answer relates to sound/smoke/station announcements and other features similar to your childhood train experiance, then no contest, you should be an MTH customer.
But please understand, even a large number of those who prefer/want/like HO model trains with sound, most/many modelers in HO are not really interested in those other "play value" features.
Historically, the HO hobby has been one of fine model building, pursuit of prototype accuracy, and simulating realistic scenery and operations. It has only recently expanded to be a smaller version of a LIONEL train set experiance.
This is why the idea of single brand loyalty is so foreign to those responding to you and why so many have little good to say about MTH.
Myself personally, I still use DC (a somewhat advanced and complex system with signals, multiple trains, etc), I do not have or want onboard sound (not of suitable fidelity for my ears, too expensive, too unrealiatic/toy like), and I could never be satisfied with the products from just one manufacturer.
This hobby is a very diverse one, with lots of different user goals and approaches. I am sharing all this so that you do not become dscouraged with the hobby or the members of this forum - they are all trying to help from their perspective - which, as I hope I have explained reasonably well, can be widely varried.
I hope you get from your model train experiance whatever you are looking for from it, but as you are likely learning quickly, many others see this hobby in a number of different ways.
I believe I may have this resolved. I already have most of what I need and if I get this resolved I'm home free. It would be nice to have an autorevesing unit, but it's not the end of the world if I have to just flip one switch. I actually like that better because it will add an extra step for the grandchildren and that is what this is all about.
This whole thing just threw me for a loop. It was like being broadsided. The last thing I expected was a manufacturer who was content to let its customers dangle and dealers who had no answers.
Maybe its just age. Truth be told I am learning a little something new each day and that's not bad. My hats off to everybody who has their systems up and running regardless of what they are using. I look forward to posting that news on behalf of myself.
Brendan once you have 10 posts you will be a free man.
I am getting back into the hobby after 16 years and nothing in my research put DCS ahead of DCC or even DC. That includes everything in this thread. If I were you I would cut my losses and Ebay the DCS equipment.
DCC is not a walk in the park and some people here have struggled a great deal. But at least there is support, not only here but from various manufacturers.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
According to said flyer, two rail layouts use DC power.
Auto reversing units discussed will not work with DC power.
I am unaware if any are on the market that will work on DC power.
So, Brendan verified it correctly, DC power.
Brendan Buschi. I have been hearing different things in regard to the type of current DCS puts out on the track. I started out thinking it was DC (because I was told that) and then I was told it was AC (you would be surprised who some of the people who told me that were). I decided to run some simple tests of my own with a multimeter and veified that it is indeed DC. If all of you think this is no big deal let me remind you that I never heard of DCS or DCC until a few weeks ago. I have not had model trains in 60 years and I never had HO.
Take a look at MTH's flyer page 8 or 9. The answer is either DC or AC.
http://mthtrains.com/sites/default/files/catalog_files/2015_DCS/html5/index.html#
The Atlas Twin 210 is used to manually reverse polarity in a reversing loop. It has 2 switches. One is for the main line and the other is for the track inside the reversing loop. When you throw either switch it reverses the polarity of the track it is connected to. It was intended for DC operation so you are instructed to throw the switch for the main line before the train exits the reversing loop. By doing that you reverse the main line polarity and the DC locomotive moves out onto a track that is now basically wired to run the locomotive in reverse - that way the train continues to move forward. Since we are talking DC, there is also no expectation of any other locomotive being on the main line.
Here are a few new questions:
1. What if you throw the switch for the polarity in the reversing loop when the entire train with a DCS locomotive is in the loop? I know the polarity in the loop will immediately reverse. It will not change the original polarity on the main line. Then the train will move out onto the main line without causing a short. Since the locomotive is a DCS locomotive the reversal in polarity should not change the direction the train is moving in. So my question is if I instantly manually change the polarity of the track the DCS locomotive and train is on while the train is in motion, will it cause any damage to the DCS locomotive? If it doesn't then the simplest way to do this would be to reverse the polarity in the reversing loop while the train is inside it. The rest of the trains on the main line should not be affected.
2. Is there a simple way to wire a led so that I can always tell the polarity on the track? I'm guessing I could span the track with an led in some fashion. If so, how might I do that and does it pose any problems to the trains on the track at the time?
I spoke with the folks at Dallee Electronics today. They have a solution for all this on DCS that should work, but it is fully automated and you have to abide by certain conventions. Their TRAK-DTL (366) can instantly reverse the polarity inside the loop while the train is running. They assure me it would not cause any problem to the DCS locomotive. The 366 is an electronic component that senses current flow on the track. It can be used with other components to fully automate the process. I beleive they have the solution for DCS automated reversing loops. The thing is it instantly reverses the polarity inside the reversing loop.
So, does that mean that I can accomplish the exact same thing with a manual switch without causing any damage?
If a simple switch works, then a simple led connected to the track should be a visible indicator of what the track's polarity is.
I want to nail this down before trying it. I will call the folks at MTH tomorrow to see what they have to say about instantly reversing the polarity on a track a DCS locomotive is running on.
Thanks again. I really appreciate the feedback. Thanks for the info on posting pictures too. I don't want to destroy anything and I am not confident in my understanding of any of this.
For posting pics here, they need to be hosted somewhere, such as photobucket, and "linked" into the post.
Once you have the photo hosted somewhere, like photobucket, navigat to the photo you wish to post, get the link, then, on the forum, the button that looks like a mountain with the sun above it, or the "Insert" drop down, paste the link into the box that comes up, and you will have a pic in you post.
Steve has a very good post on this on the main thread title page.
Now, with the MTH DCS system using DC output, none of the offered auto reversing units discussed will work, as they all work with the DCC closer to AC style power, they will not work on straight DC, so will not function correctly for DCS.
Your only option is the old DC reversing loop solution of the DPDT switches. My concearn now would be if throwing the main with another locomotive on it will create issues???
And, as you are aware, my last post, with a "dead loop", really was poor wording. It is "completely isolated" power wise, all rails insulated power wise from the rest of the layout. I should have worded that a little better, for all who have read, and might in the future.
It's not. In the end, you have the same wires - track pickups feeding the board somewhere, motor wires coming fromt he board, speaker wires coming from the board, and wires to the lights. They sometimes do silly things with the class lights but giving a choice of red, green, and off isn't particularly useful anyway so just don't hook them up. If you want to see how they CAN work - check out the new Bowser SD40-2 with Loksound, as reviewed in the March Cody's Office. You actually can toggle through all 3 colors and off, so you can be fully prototypical.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I have to get used to not seeing my posts for a few days. I just hope they are put up in the order I write them.
Here's what I learned this weekend:
1. Dave Hikel no longer recommends the Bachmann Auto Reverse units. (EZ Command Reverse Loop Module 44912)
2. I have been hearing different things in regard to the type of current DCS puts out on the track. I started out thinking it was DC (because I was told that) and then I was told it was AC (you would be surprised who some of the people who told me that were). I decided to run some simple tests of my own with a multimeter and veified that it is indeed DC. If all of you think this is no big deal let me remind you that I never heard of DCS or DCC until a few weeks ago. I have not had model trains in 60 years and I never had HO.
3. Since all the units that are built specifically for DCC are designed to work in an AC environment, I have almost abandoned my search to find an autoreversing module. I don't believe there are any out there, but I think Dallee Electronics may have something. I will find out more about that today. The trouble is that I am way over my head technically.
4. I actually decided to employ a manual DC reversing section and you are now the second person who has suggested that to me.
As I understand it, the manual DC reversing section will switch the polarity of the entire main line before the locomotive exits the reversing loop. In order for that to happen, you must throw a manual switch to reverse the polarity after the train is fully inside the reversing loop. You must also throw the switch so the turnout is properly oriented for the train to exit.
None of this should be a problem for a DCS locomotive since the engine should maintain the direction in which it is going even if the polarity is reversed. I'm not sure what this would do to another DCS locomotive on a different area of the main line, but I am guessing it would do just fine. I'll find out.
Once the train is back on the main line I imagine you could reverse the polarity of the main line again by throwing the switch for the empty reversing section that the train just left. That would restore the polarity to its original state on the main line, but if it doesn't matter to other trains on the main line, then why bother?
I believe if I had 2 DC locomotives on the same main line and one of them went in and out of the reversing section then the other train on the main line would start going in reverse.
I know that with DC you normally don't put more than one locomotive on the main line at a time, but I've done that without having an isolated section and a second controller for the other locomotive. I have a long main line. My son-in-law's father sent over a few very old HO engines when he heard what I was planning and I can use them to test the track in DC mode. It will give me the opportunity to see what is actually going on in terms of the rails polarity. If this sounds silly, and maybe it is, all I can say is that a picture for me is worth a thousand words. I can't see the electricity, but I can see a couple of DC locomotives moving.
I couldn't figure out how to insert a picture in this post so I just copied and pasted a jpg image of the layout I 'm building. I have no idea if that will show up on your screen.
Ideally my layout will have 2 reversing loops. I'm not trying to replicate any actual location or even create a realistic display. I just want the kids to learn how to navigate a train on a variable layout. If they can control a few trains and throw a few switches and change direction from time to time without crashing or falling off the track I will be very happy. The table is a 14' x 9.5' rectangle with a 4' x 4' cut out of the top left corner.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Brendan Buschi I also spoke to a tech at Digitrax. I was asking about their AR1 unit. The tech was hostile and angry with me for asking the question. I think he did not like the fact that I was using MTH equipment. He was unique in terms of the people I called. If I had a component that could work with a competitor's equipment I would readily and happily make it known. A sale is a sale.
I also spoke to a tech at Digitrax. I was asking about their AR1 unit. The tech was hostile and angry with me for asking the question. I think he did not like the fact that I was using MTH equipment. He was unique in terms of the people I called. If I had a component that could work with a competitor's equipment I would readily and happily make it known. A sale is a sale.
After some of the stunts MTH has pulled, in both the press and with "legal maneuvers", I am surprised that only the Digitax tech was a little testy...
Unfortunately, not many have bought the full DCS system, for a variety of reasons. I myself have not, as having one expensive brand of control system to run only a handful of one expensive brand of locomotives, and needing another control system for all of my other locomotives, regardless of brand, and price point, seemed foolish. Maybe I just didn't drink the right koolaid...
Supporting a bully was also not high on my list, and, MTH's "my way or no way" fits my definition of a bully, before we get into the stunts I referenced earlier.
My relevant information, on DCS being a proprietary system, that only MTH can use, is this: When you design something to not work with competitors products, competitors will not like you. Nor will consumers who try to make it work anyway. You will refuse to test it with any competitors products, for compatibility issues. (Or you do, but only to make sure it is not compatible.) You will also tend to refuse to divulge how said proprietary system works, for fear that some might reverse engineer your product, take the good things from it, and make those good things work with your competitors products that you specifically refused to work with, thereby putting you out of business. (Several examples of proprietary systems going under, some due to said issue of someone figuring out how to make it work with competitors equipment, cheaper than you sell yours.)
While I hope you can find a way to make it work, and for MTH to make more things work so they can gain more customers, like a non-proprietary control system for instance, I am not going to hold my breath.
I just do not see it working, as it is a MTH only proprietary product, and they do not offer a auto-reversing unit.
Best chance, a totally dead, manual reversing section like DC wiring used to use, before the auto-reversing equipment came about.
It's hard to believe they offer no native solution to a reverse loop. Do they think all 2 rail modelers only build only simple ovals? A reverse loop is a common element in even basic 3 rail layouts, of course there is no polarity issues with 3 rail, which could explain their mentality, but controlling reverse loops has been around since the beginning for 2 rail DC and DCC. Wiring it like DC should work fine, using a toggle switch. Electro-mehcnical solutions that work with DC (and DCC) should work - using switch machine contacts and so forth. They key to using an automatic device is how the DCS signal works. If it is a bipolar signal like DCC, then you most likely can reverse the polarity (phase in this case) under a running loco and nothing will happen - that's how it works with DCC. Next up is how fast their short circuit protection operates - the PSX-AR is very fast, but if the DCS short protection is equally as fast, the PSX-AR might not be able to reverse. But who will buy these things and conduct all the tests? The DCC companies have zero interest - the 2 rail DCS market is so miniscule they would never sell enough of their products to those people to justify any effort to look into it. And MTH has no interest in selling some other manufacturer's product to their users, so they aren;t about to do it.
MTH pretty much doesn't care if their locos operate well on standard DC or DCC - as Sheldon states, they are more into the collector mentality. They don't care if you buy one of their locos and then run it a few minutes before giving up in frustration and displaying it on a shelf. You still bought it, that's good enough.
It's not that their products are bad - the set of FA's I have is very nice, definitely not "toy train" in details. It's the little things - the only slight compatibility with DCC, the absolutely useless remote control couplers (as in the latest MR review - you have to slam into a standing car at high speed to close the knuckles) - at least they do include a set of Kadees as replacements so you can change those out, etc. Each release seems to support more and more DCC Cvs, but you STILL can't adjust sound volumes (other than the master) without DCS. The sound going mute after a power interruption and then requiring a whole restart sequence is exceptionally annoying. Best bet if the model appeals to you is to get the DC versions, when offered, and then use them as-is on a DC layout or install a standard DCC decoder for DCC. I can't complain, for the price I got my FA set for, I can rip out the MTH DCS electronics and put in good sound decoders and still have spent less than the list price of the sound units - but then one has to wonder why they were selling the sound equipped ones so cheap in the first place? But you can ask that of many items you find on eBay.
Thank you to all who have responded. Thank you to Big Daddy for pointing me to a particular thread. I had actually read it, but I was unable to look at the layout in question because the links didn't work.
I am not a lifelong model railroad guy. My whole desire is to do something fun and constructive with the grandkids. I have no axe to grind and I can appreciate the fact that others are coming from different places than I am and have a history that goes back decades. I can easily understand the conclusions that others have arrived at based upon their experiences with vendors - MTH in particular. All that being said, I still have a unresolved problem.
Rereading the Dave Hikel thread was helpful. I also found one review on Amazon by someone who was successful using the Bachmann E-Z Command Reverse Loop Module with his MTH DCS HO layout. I actually thought I might have gotten this resolved until I looked at a picture of the Bachmann unit. It has 2 sets of identical wires - one for input from the main line and one for output to the inside of the loop. The new problem is that at the end of those wires are molded connectors that plug into Bachmann track. For my Atlas HO Code 83 Snap Track I would have to cut one connector off of the end of each wire. I do not know if it matters. I don't know if the wires have to be conncected to their respective tracks in any particular way (what is the + and what is the -). To make matters worse the molded connectors that would plug into the Bachmann unit can be flipped - there is no one way to plug a connector into the Bachmann unit.
If anybody has an answer to this I would greatly appreciate hearing it.
I want to be very clear - I think MTH is very irresponsible not to have a answer to this question, but that doesn't help me. I think the MTH dealers should also have an answer to this question, but that doesn't help me. I think other hobbiests have legitimate frustrations and angers, but that doesn't help me,
I was never good with a VCR and I don't have a smartphone because it would drive me crazy and I am not willing to put in the time to learn how to really control a smartphone. On the other hand, I am quite adept at dealing with computers and computer hardware and software. I am very informed when it comes to networking and IT issues. I have been building custom computers for some 20 years. I have tackled computer related problems and have dealt with vendors, retailers and consumers who all had various axes to gring. That being said, I have always been able to find a solution when confronted with a problem. It wasn't always easy or doable in a short period of time, but I always got it done. In my field there was someone somewhere who knew something and was willing to shrae the information. There were books to read. There are no books I knowof that address DCS HO.
The true culprit here is MTH. I need the Lone Ranger or I need the villagers to rise up as they did in the Magnificant Seven and work together to deal with the problem. In the meantime I will plug away and pass on whatever I find. If someone has the answer to the Bachmann molded plug question this issue might finally be put to rest.
Happy Easter. Thanks again for your responses.
BigDaddy Brendan I feel your pain about customer service. Like presidential campaigns, it's not the way it used to be. The guy in the Verizon store, unapologetically yawns in my face when I walk in to buy a $600 Iphone. The roofer who replaced roofs on my mother and my house, will nor return calls about an unrelated gutter problem. I'm 64 and getting back into model railroading after a long hiatus. I am strongly leaning to DCC, at this point nothing is certain. In forums, it's common for people to ignore what you want, and tell you what they would do. I am not going to do that. Dave Hikel has posted in the past about DCS, he has not posted in a year, but you might give him a shout. This thread discusses DCS problems including reversing loops. I confess I did not read the whole thing, but maybe something in there would be helpful to you. ">http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/232272.aspx[/url] PS you will be on moderation so you don't sell us any ruskie brides until you get 10 posts. Then you can respond in real time.
Brendan I feel your pain about customer service. Like presidential campaigns, it's not the way it used to be. The guy in the Verizon store, unapologetically yawns in my face when I walk in to buy a $600 Iphone. The roofer who replaced roofs on my mother and my house, will nor return calls about an unrelated gutter problem.
I'm 64 and getting back into model railroading after a long hiatus. I am strongly leaning to DCC, at this point nothing is certain.
In forums, it's common for people to ignore what you want, and tell you what they would do. I am not going to do that.
Dave Hikel has posted in the past about DCS, he has not posted in a year, but you might give him a shout. This thread discusses DCS problems including reversing loops. I confess I did not read the whole thing, but maybe something in there would be helpful to you.
">http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/232272.aspx[/url]
PS you will be on moderation so you don't sell us any ruskie brides until you get 10 posts. Then you can respond in real time.
So here we are 4 years after this thread was started. MTH still does not have a reverser and still does not offer the retrofit decoders Dave Hikel talked about for years, and him, and the other MTH "experts" have generally not been heard from in a while?
Seems to reinforce one of two positions:
One, MTH is not doing as well in HO as they expected/hoped and has put such development on the back burner, especially since the model train market seems slow right now.
OR, MTH has resigned themselves to the idea that they will never break into the serious HO modeler market with their control system and they figure their typical "casual user type customer" simply will not need reversers or decoders for other brands of locos.
It is not a matter of people ignoring what you want, they just know from experiance that it does not exist, or cannot be done that way - so they offer alternate solutions.
I love building model trains, been doing it since age 12. But if I was just getting into this hobby today, I would have second thoughts based on the availability of products, the way it is distributed/marketed, and the emphasis on buying expensive ready made products rather than building things.
MTH does not understand the "total" of the HO hobby, or they are so arrogant as to think they can reshape it to their liking. In any case they have missed great numbers of sales by their lack of full compatibility with existing HO control protocols.
I understand your situation and your frustration with not being able to find the information you need.
It might be helpful for you to understand more about this hobby and thereby understand better why your situation is unusual. While I am sure there are lots of others building train layouts for their grandchildren, that itself does not represent the majority of those building model train layouts.
Even more so, regardless of motive, it is unsual for most in the HO scale hobby to be single brand loyal. This is true mainly because no one brand offers every product desired or necessary, and even speaking of just locomotives, most peoples interests are not satisfied by the selection offered by just one brand.
In fact, the HO hobby was built on the idea of interchangeablity between brands.
A great many modelers see this hobby as an adult persuit that involves recreating a specific place in time on a specific railroad - no one manufacturer has ever offered all the necessary/desired products to fulfill that goal.
MTH makes very high quality products loaded with high tech features - BUT, they are new to HO trains, and come from the world of three rail O gauge trains where single brand loyalty is more common and modeling motives and interests are often more casual, or more in the vain of collecting. There are only three or four brands is O gauge, there are dozens in HO.
They have brought that approach to HO, but only with limited success. Their control system, no matter how good, is of no value or interest to those of us who already have large fleets of other brands of locos on our layouts. I am only 11 years younger than you, but I had 100 locos and had been in this hobby 40 years before MTH ever made an HO train or offered their control system to be used with that HO train.
Myself, and countless others like me are not throwing away years of work and expense to switch to MTH, so their unwillingness to be fully compatable leaves them out in the cold for most in this hobby.
DCC has been the one command control system that has dominated model trains, it is a little more than 20 years old and still only enjoys about a 50% market share. Many modelers still use DC or other systems.
So to most of us, it is not brand X vs brand Y - we buy both, and like both - we don't buy MTH because it does not play well with others - kind of like APPLE years ago............
Your problem is with MTH, as you found out, they are not much help.
You may not realize this, but this is a very small industry. You called Digitrax, their total staff is likely less than two dozen people, maybe less. You are not talking to companies with the resources of Microsoft or Apple, and you are likely the only person who has asked how to make their product work with MTH.
We know MTH is not sharing information with anyone, so Digitrax has no reason to go out and buy a bunch of MTH product at retail and try to make it work with their products - it is a zero market for them.
Years ago I worked in this industry, I managed a train department in a hobby shop, helped a lot of new people get started. I also met a great number of people in this industry. It is still today just a "cottage industry" for the most part. World wide you can count the train brands on one hand that are part of a publicly held company, most are amazingly small operations. Even MTH is just an office and warehouse in an industrial park about 40 miles from me - that and a lot of contracts with factories overseas........
Until recenty - like in the last 15-20 years - the HO hobby was one that required a pretty high level of building and craftsman skills on the part of the user. Now it still offers that, but also offers more of the "ready to go" type of high quality products - like MTH and others.
But compatablity is key - and MTH still does not get that.
Good luck to you,
I have called MTH several times and they cannot give me any information. They have not tested any equipment with their trains. I have just found a source. It is Dallee Electronics - https://www.dallee.com/ - they were very helpful and have extensive information on their website. If you look at page 36 of their online wiring guide (pdf) you will see a detailed schematic with a description, Their ppart is TRAK-DTL #366. Their are other components mentioned as well.
I also spoke with DCC Specialties - http://www.dccspecialties.com/ - They were also very helpful. They recommended their PSX and PSX-R components.
I really like the MTH HO Trains. It is a shame that MTH has not doped this out on their own. I'm 70, I ran a tech company, not having this information readily available for a customer is alien to me.
I called somewhere between 10 and 20 people trying to figure this out. With the exception of Digitrax, everyone was friendly, but not always knowledgeable. I last had an American Flyer train set when I was 10. 60 years later I am exploring an all new technology for the first time. I have been at it a few weeks. What amazes me is how uninformed a lot of people in this industry are.
Information is valuable if it is relevant. When someone asks you about DCS for example either tell them what you know or tell them you don't know. Don't start getting into things that are irrelevant. If I want to know about DCS, I really don't want or need to hear about your opinion on the advisability of DC or DCC or one manufacturer vs. another manufacturer.
Apparently there are a lot of people my age into trains. It would be nice if we could just be friendly and help each other out. It would also be nice if manufacturers and dealers knew about their product lines and had good solid information on how things work.
I got into this to start a multi-year project with my grandchildren. I think this is a nice endeavor. The layout can grow as they grow and they can learn about a lot of things along the way. I would think anybody would want to be helpful along the way.
MTH is the place to call, they are th eonly ones that can tell you for sure what is needed for DCS. DCS is their proprietary system, there are no third party DCS vendors. Products for DCC MIGHT work with DCS, but it's doubtful the vendors of DCC equipment have tested it with DCS. MTH woud know what works with their system and what doesn't.