I've been using DCC since the mid-90's, but have decided to switch to MTH DCS. I have the system, but would like to learn a couple of things from the experience of others.
On my Digitrax controlled layout I use DCC Specialties PSX for circuit breakers, and OG-AR for reverse loop control. I want to have the same capability with DCS, and would like to find out what others are using.
I tried inserting the PSX between the TIU and the track but got no response from the loco (the two LED's on the PSX did light, so there was power to the breaker.
I found a short article saying that the Bachmann DCC Reverse loop controller will work with DCS, so that is an option for the reverse loop.
Is anyone on this forum using DCS HO? If so, what have you found as a solution for a circuit breaker and reverse loop controller?
Thank you in advance for your help.
What are you doing with all your DCC locos from the previous layout?
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
I only have 6 loco's. I'm giving two SP switchers to my son, donating two to an inner-city church youth group, and the last two are going to one of my brothers.
I thought about keeping one of the switchers I hopes that MTH would come out with a kit to convert DCC to DCS, but I don't see how a conversion would have all the functionality of a DCS loco from the factory.
As I recall, DCS puts a higher voltage on the track than DCC. Hopefully, you haven't damaged your DCC electronics by connecting them to a DCS source. Put a meter set to AC volts across the rails and see what you get. DCC will put out 12-16 volts. I think DCS can go up to 24 volts. It may night fry your circuits immediately, but after prolonged usage, well, even the smell will be unpleasant.
I don't think you'll get a lot of responses about "others' experience" on this. DCS has minimal penetration in the HO scale market. MTH has only been making HO engines for a few years, and they're putting dual-mode DCC/DCS decoders in them. You can't buy DCS decoders separately, so you are pretty much stuck with the engines MTH makes. They're not bad engines, but the selection is very limited.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I'm using 16VDC into the system, so I'll be in a compatible voltage range. The DCC electronics are disconnected before attaching the DCS, so no danger of damage.
You are right - I haven't gotten much response, and most of what I've received has been "why would you want to move away from DCC - it's the standard." Makes me think of the Apple 1984 commercial contrasting "standard" versus "innovation."
Since the TIU has to have two way communication with the locomotive, I don't believe any electronic circuit breaker is going to work - I'm going to need either a relay or bi-metal device.
According to one link I received, the Bachmann auto-reverse controll will work with DCS. Now I just need an effective breaker.
Why not use an auto tail light bulb, the 1156 variety? Wired in series, it is an effective limiter to the amps that can get past it, and it doubles as an indicator of the trouble spot.
Crandell
rk_dave You are right - I haven't gotten much response, and most of what I've received has been "why would you want to move away from DCC - it's the standard." Makes me think of the Apple 1984 commercial contrasting "standard" versus "innovation."
Dave, the reason most people cannot understand your choice is that they cannot imagine restricting their locomotive choices to that one brand - innovative or not.
I don't know what your modeling interests are, but for most, even the most casual modelers, the offerings of MTH are extreemly limited.
I suppose that if you have no particular passion for a particular prototype, or era, or region, than the offerings of MTH may be just fine. That is simply not the case for most of us.
And, in every informal survey that has been done about onboard sound, only about 60-70% of modelers want it. And of those that do, many have expressed that it is not their highest priority.
I don't have a dog in this fight, I still use DC and don't like onboard sound in small scales do the poor sound quality - and don't tell me how much better MTH sound is - I have heard them. Two 1" speakers are still two 1" speakers.
What I do is innovative, I have cab control with no block toggles, single button turnout routing, fully intergrated signaling and CTC, wireless radio throttles, automatic collision avoidance similar to prototype ATC, full votage pulse width modulation motor control, and true working signal interlocking - all with DC.
But I don't have any talking locomotives or working class lights that don't really fit actual prototype practices.
Inovative without compatibility almost killed APPLE, now they play much nicer with PC's.
I wish you all the best, but it seems your goals are outside the interests and understanding most of the rest of us.
DCC may or maynot be the "standard", DC is actually still pretty strong, wireless direct radio is advancing, who knows what might be next, but MTH has limited themselves by not making possible to put their system in other brands of locos, and that one day will doom it to failure or VERY limited use.
Sheldon
Thank you, Sheldon - I hadn't really thought about standardizing on one manufacturer's locomotives as being unusual. All my DCC loco's (all 6 of them) are Atlas. My layout isn't one of those "super" ones you see featured in MR, so I don't need a large fleet of power. If the GP-35's work as well as the FA-1, I'll be set with a couple of those (and a switcher).
What you've done with DC sounds impressive. Have fun.
rk_dave Thank you, Sheldon - I hadn't really thought about standardizing on one manufacturer's locomotives as being unusual. All my DCC loco's (all 6 of them) are Atlas. My layout isn't one of those "super" ones you see featured in MR, so I don't need a large fleet of power. If the GP-35's work as well as the FA-1, I'll be set with a couple of those (and a switcher). What you've done with DC sounds impressive. Have fun.
Your first statement is very interesting - many years ago - the WHOLE point of the NMRA and a set of standards was just that, to allow and promote interchangablity between brands, unlike three rail O gauge where there was only one brand for many years.
Not to belabor the point, but the whole idea is that, small layout or large, I can buy the locos that I want, that fit a specific era, railroad, etc, or just what I happen to like, regardless of brand.
Atlas makes great locos, but thier selection would not be suitable for my needs either. Most everything Atlas makes is too "new" prototypically for my layout. On my layout you can find ATHEARN, INTERMOUNTAIN, BACHMANN, PROTO 2000, IHC, MANTUA, BROADWAY LIMITED, RIVAROSSI, PFM, ORIENTAL LIMITED and others.
You will even find various different brands and types double/tripple headed together without the wonders of DCC or DCS.
But all of them, some steam, some diesel, fit the 1954 Class I railroad setting of my layout for my freelanced ATLANTIC CENTRAL and for the B&O, C&O and WM who interchange with it.
All of them run well and are well detailed - but none of them came with prices like MTH locos - that why I can have 130 of them for my layout that fills a 900 sq ft room.
But this hobby is very diverse, and is actually become even more diverse with the activities of some bearing no resemblence to the activities of many others.
Again, best of luck with you new path.
I may be missing something here, but all the info I've seen on MTH's DCS system says it can be used to operate any DCC-equipped locomotive...so I'm not clear why you believe switching to a DCS system means you have to give away all your current DCC-equipped engines??
To use the example given by the OP in an earlier post, I guess my question would be: In what ways is DCS more "innovative" than DCC?
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
wjstix I may be missing something here, but all the info I've seen on MTH's DCS system says it can be used to operate any DCC-equipped locomotive...so I'm not clear why you believe switching to a DCS system means you have to give away all your current DCC-equipped engines??
I just read the MTH front page on DCS, and they do not make that claim. DCS-equipped engines can operate on DCC layouts, with some loss of DCS functionality, but DCC engines can not operate on a DCS controlled system. If you have different news, it would be a significant game-changer.
The impression may come that we are trying to drive someone away, but really I think the protest are very well based in facts. Such as the fact that DCC is a standard and compatible across many manufacturers. DCS is proprietary and there is exactly ZERO chance it will ever go beyond a single vendor solution unless it is made avilable for other manufacturers to make compatible equipment. They are even WORSE is many ways than the earlier proprietary comamdn control systems - at least with those you could install a receiver in ANY brnad of loco you wanted. MTH has no provisions for this, if I have a loco I like, there is no way I could add a DCS receiver even if I wanted to.
In addition, this isn;t a case of goifn from DC to some command control sysytem, teh OP had an investment in DCC already. Per the message on th emain board, it seems the drive here wa the aquisition of an MTH loco. My MTH FA set runs fine on my Digitrax DCC system, as well as on the club's Digitrax system. Many club members have the SD70ACes from MTH, and they all work fine.
I'm a gadget freak, but I have no need for the featue that automatically IDs my loco and shows a picture of it to select, which DCS does but DCC does not. And for every innovation there is always somethign goofy - DCS seems to use batteries and now super caps to maintain the decoder settings, instead of flash memory like DCC decoders. I suppose this is a legacy design, from the original O scale hi-rail DCS stuff and the choice of microcontrollers available at the time. In fact this seemed to be the root of the OP's problem, the loco would nt save the settings after programming. Switching to DCS won't fix that, it will forget the DCS settings just like it forgets the DCC settings if there's a hardware problem like that.
The future may indeed be on-board batteries and true wireless. Problem is, that market is currently int he same state as early command control - there are about 3 manufacturers making systems that cna do this, even in HO scale, today - but none are compatible with each other so you are stuck with a single vendor solution and REALLY stuck ocne the dust settles and a winner is declared, if it's not the one you went with. Until such a time as a standard, either officially via the NMRA, or de facto among the various manufacturers, there is exactly ZERO chance I would switch, and I would strongly discourage others from doing so as well. Just ask the people who used Dynatrol or OnBoard prior to the adoption of the DCC standards. Lot of expensive equipment, now reduced to spare parts. Sure, the die-hards hung on and kept using it - it DID still work fine - but the manufacturers went out of business and there were no more parts available to upgrade, repair, or install new locos.
I don;t compeltely agree witht he NMRA DCC standards - some things were deliberately left vague instead of being made an exact standard simply to cater to various manufacturers and their little quirks - the confusion over what is a short address and what is a long address is foremost of those - but idea that there IS a standard and I can buy decoders from dozens of companies and know they will be controllable from my Digitrax system menas I can get what I want and what I need without waiting on Digitrax to make it. Don't liek Digitrax sound decoders? Ine, just use the ones you like, they'll all work!
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Hi all,
I'm a volunteer beta tester for MTH's DCS software. I've been running HO DCS since 2006 when the PRR K4 was released and O scale DCS since 2002. I build layouts full time, so I get to stay pretty up to date in multiple scales.
I experimented quite a bit with the PSX several years ago. Some will let the DCS signal through with little interference, but most will at least partially degrade the signal. The simple solution is to use the PSX between your power supply and the TIU input. The DCS signal is only present on the output side of the TIU, so the PSX won't cause any interference on the input side.
I've tested PSX-AR'a with DCS but never an OG-AR. The PSX-AR caused similar degradation as the PSX. The OG-AR isn't supposed to be used with DC, only DCC, so it's not suitable for DCS. The Bachmann reverser is not as fast as a PSX-AR, but it is the best DCS friendly reverser.
Posted by: rk_dave
"I thought about keeping one of the switchers I hopes that MTH would come out with a kit to convert DCC to DCS, but I don't see how a conversion would have all the functionality of a DCS loco from the factory."
MTH has said they will have an HO PS3 decoder on the market by mid 2013. However, it looks like it will use BEMF for speed control rather than MTH's optical tach reader. Even if you add all the LED lighting and remote operating couplers the speed control will not be as consistent as a factory engine.
Posted by: MisterBeasley
"As I recall, DCS puts a higher voltage on the track than DCC."
Not correct. Like a DCC system, DCS can be used in different scales. Each scale has different recommended voltage ranges. In HO MTH recommends 12-16 volts DC. In O and G you can use either AC or DC at up to 18 and 24 volts respectively. MTH is close to shipping their first Protosound 3e+ equipped locomotives in HO, which are compatible with 12-16 volts AC for Marklin users. They also just announced their expansion into S scale with the acquisition of the S-Helper product line, but they haven't released any technical specs for S.
Posted by: ATLANTIC CENTRAL
"But I don't have any talking locomotives or working class lights that don't really fit actual prototype practices."
We got a neat piece of info about class lights last month at the DCS User Group meeting at the TCA York, PA, train meet. A Korean LED manufacturer has just released a bi-color white/green sub-miniature LED specifically for the model railroad market. MTH (and presumably other manufactures) will soon be able to offer prototypical class lights. They're also making a white/red LED for prototypical directional lighting where appropriate.
Posted by: tstage
"To use the example given by the OP in an earlier post, I guess my question would be: In what ways is DCS more "innovative" than DCC?"
Here are a few technological differences. DCS has had true two-way communications from day one. Lenz's Rail-Com has added the ability to send and receive communications, but only the command station or the locomotive can "talk" at any one time. MTH best exploits this innovation when loading a locomotive into the DCS cab. The engine's memory stores all the current settings for ID number, engine name, and a list of available functions. This information is automatically displayed in the cab's screen. Another advantage is bandwidth. In practical operation DCS has more than twenty times the bandwidth of DCC. Most of the bandwidth advantage is due to the higher communications frequency. The two-way coms also makes the bandwidth usage more efficient. Each command sent to a locomotive induces a reply. Once the command station (Track Interface Unit in DCS parlance) receives a valid reply it doesn't have to repeat the command. I have had opportunities to participate and organize large operating sessions on both DCC and DCS equipped layouts. The DCS system has noticeably better command response when a large number of engines (10 or more) are being run simultaneously. One other benefit of separating the command signal from track power is that communications are not easily corrupted by a momentary short. It's often easier to convert an existing DC blocked layout with electrofrogs to DCS than DCC.
Posted by: wjstix
"I may be missing something here, but all the info I've seen on MTH's DCS system says it can be used to operate any DCC-equipped locomotive...so I'm not clear why you believe switching to a DCS system means you have to give away all your current DCC-equipped engines??"
"I just read the MTH front page on DCS, and they do not make that claim. DCS-equipped engines can operate on DCC layouts, with some loss of DCS functionality, but DCC engines can not operate on a DCS controlled system. If you have different news, it would be a significant game-changer."
MisterBeasly is correct. Locomotives with Protosound 3 decoders can run on either DCS or DCC systems. However, other DCC engines cannot run on DCS. Likewise, engines with Protosound 2 decoders (O and G scales only) cannot be run by DCC systems. The PS3 decoder is the "go between."
Posted by: rrinker
"if I have a loco I like, there is no way I could add a DCS receiver even if I wanted to."
Currently that is correct. As mentioned earlier, this will likely change within the next 12 months.
"DCS seems to use batteries and now super caps to maintain the decoder settings, instead of flash memory like DCC decoders."
Only Protosound 2 decoders used batteries. All PS3 decoders in all scales use capacitors. Only the earliest PS2 decoders built between 2000 and 2003 (yes, they shipped PS2 equipped engines before DCS was released) had volatile memory. All PS2 and PS3 decoders since 2003 have used flash memory. The only time they actually need the battery or cap is to save setting changes. The issue with PS3 engines that "forget" their settings is that any changes made were not written to memory until track power was next removed. This was changed over a year ago. Setting changes are now written to memory whenever they are made.
"In fact this seemed to be the root of the OP's problem, the loco would nt save the settings after programming. Switching to DCS won't fix that, it will forget the DCS settings just like it forgets the DCC settings if there's a hardware problem like that."
I just read the other thread on the main forum. I missed rk_dave's replies over there until now. If he still having issues with the decoder forgetting it's ID, then yes it is a decoder hardware problem and will need to be corrected for either DCS or DCC to operate the engine properly. However, in DCS, once the engine gets programmed successfully one time you'll never notice a bad capacitor. If the problem is intermittent he may never have a problem in DCS.
"My MTH FA set runs fine on my Digitrax DCC system, as well as on the club's Digitrax system. Many club members have the SD70ACes from MTH, and they all work fine."
" I'm a gadget freak, but I have no need for the featue that automatically IDs my loco and shows a picture of it to select, which DCS does but DCC does not."
Actually, the system shows the ID number and a name, not a picture. But there's a lot more than just the loading system that's different. Many of the differences come down to the same kind of things people debate about DCC cabs. The physical shape of the cab, the button layout, and menus are different from any DCC system. The main controls (speed, direction, horn, and bell) are all laid out so that they can all be operated by your thumb while holding the cab with one hand. The buttons are different enough in size, shape, and position that you can run your engines without looking at the remote. When you want to activate less common functions, like changing the master volume, these are located on 10 dedicated function keys at the bottom of the cab. There are also functions that vary from one locomotive to another. These functions are displayed on the screen above five "softkeys" with alphanumeric codes. Lighting features start with an "L", sound features with an "S", etc. For instance, an engine equipped with a mars light will have a softkey labeled "LMA." A steam engine with a playable whistle will have a softkey labeled "SPW". Not every engine will have a mars light softkey, but every engine with a mars light key will have it labeled LMA. Consistency in the interface is a big part of what makes DCS easy to learn and operate. You never have to remember what function number does what on which engine. Features that most DCC decoders isolate as CV's are also easy to program while operating. Rather than digging out the manual to find the list of CV numbers you simply go through a menu tree that is again consistent to all PS2 and PS3 engines.
I own an NCE system myself. I chose NCE partially because it has the most "polish" of any of the DCC systems I've used. DCS takes that "polish" to a level DCC can never reach precisely because MTH can control the interface. The Mac vs. PC analogy holds up pretty well. It's unlikely that DCS will every come close to DCC's market share. However, it's also unlikely DCS will go away. There are enough people using it in different scales to support continued development.
Thanks for the info, Dave.
So what is the real reverse loop answer for DCS?
Posted by: dave hikel
"The Bachmann reverser is not as fast as a PSX-AR, but it is the best DCS friendly reverser."
Sorry if I wasn't being clear. I prefer the PSX-AR for DCC because it gives the fastest response time. Unfortunately, since it causes interference for DCS it's not an option. For DCS the Bachmann reverser (item #44912) is your best option.
dave hikel Posted by: dave hikel "The Bachmann reverser is not as fast as a PSX-AR, but it is the best DCS friendly reverser." Sorry if I wasn't being clear. I prefer the PSX-AR for DCC because it gives the fastest response time. Unfortunately, since it causes interference for DCS it's not an option. For DCS the Bachmann reverser (item #44912) is your best option.
OK, I got that, why does MTH not have their own reverser? What do their instructions suggest?
I can only guess why they don't offer their own reverser. They probably don't feel much of a need to offer one since there are others already on the market. MTH doesn't make many DC power supplies. They have a small 20 watt supply with a throttle and a 1.5 amp wall wart type that they have used in their starter sets. They've cataloged a 30 watt power supply but it has yet to ship. Perhaps if they do more with DC power supplies they will add a reverser as well. MTH has never made an official recommendation of one particular brand or model of reverser.
I really think they need to either produce one, or recommend one, if they are serious about DCS in 2-rail. They don't have any need for one in 3-rail, you can loop the track back on itself all you want.
Hello, I just stumbled on this by Googling. I am 70 years old. I haven't had a train set since I was a small boy. I want to build a layout with my grandchildren. I am using ho gauge with the MTH Commander. I have a new DCS locomotive. I want to build a reversing loop. I am using Atlas Code 83 snap track. I am using an Atlas 560 Wye to enter the loop. I know I need to put insulator on the 4 track ends coming out of the wye. Then what? I believe I need an autoreversing module like the AR1 but I can't confirm this. I spoke with the Digitrax support staff and the guy was hostile and rude - absolutely no help and I'm looking to buy something. Others have told me with DCS I don't need anything but the insulators on the track ends, but I can't confirm this. I will eventually call MTH, but its frustrating not to have information on this readily available. Did you successfully build a reverse loop for a DCS system? If you did, can you tell me what you used?
Welcome aboard!
You've stumbled upon an old post, from 2012. The OP, rk_dave, didn't stick around much after that, so you won't likely get an answer from him.
You might try contacting someone at DCC Specialties about other options in auto-reversers. But, like their name implies, they build gadgets for DCC, and they may (or may not) work for DCS. Good luck, and let us know what you find out.
MTH is the place to call, they are th eonly ones that can tell you for sure what is needed for DCS. DCS is their proprietary system, there are no third party DCS vendors. Products for DCC MIGHT work with DCS, but it's doubtful the vendors of DCC equipment have tested it with DCS. MTH woud know what works with their system and what doesn't.
I have called MTH several times and they cannot give me any information. They have not tested any equipment with their trains. I have just found a source. It is Dallee Electronics - https://www.dallee.com/ - they were very helpful and have extensive information on their website. If you look at page 36 of their online wiring guide (pdf) you will see a detailed schematic with a description, Their ppart is TRAK-DTL #366. Their are other components mentioned as well.
I also spoke with DCC Specialties - http://www.dccspecialties.com/ - They were also very helpful. They recommended their PSX and PSX-R components.
I really like the MTH HO Trains. It is a shame that MTH has not doped this out on their own. I'm 70, I ran a tech company, not having this information readily available for a customer is alien to me.
I also spoke to a tech at Digitrax. I was asking about their AR1 unit. The tech was hostile and angry with me for asking the question. I think he did not like the fact that I was using MTH equipment. He was unique in terms of the people I called. If I had a component that could work with a competitor's equipment I would readily and happily make it known. A sale is a sale.
I called somewhere between 10 and 20 people trying to figure this out. With the exception of Digitrax, everyone was friendly, but not always knowledgeable. I last had an American Flyer train set when I was 10. 60 years later I am exploring an all new technology for the first time. I have been at it a few weeks. What amazes me is how uninformed a lot of people in this industry are.
Information is valuable if it is relevant. When someone asks you about DCS for example either tell them what you know or tell them you don't know. Don't start getting into things that are irrelevant. If I want to know about DCS, I really don't want or need to hear about your opinion on the advisability of DC or DCC or one manufacturer vs. another manufacturer.
Apparently there are a lot of people my age into trains. It would be nice if we could just be friendly and help each other out. It would also be nice if manufacturers and dealers knew about their product lines and had good solid information on how things work.
I got into this to start a multi-year project with my grandchildren. I think this is a nice endeavor. The layout can grow as they grow and they can learn about a lot of things along the way. I would think anybody would want to be helpful along the way.
Brendan,
I understand your situation and your frustration with not being able to find the information you need.
It might be helpful for you to understand more about this hobby and thereby understand better why your situation is unusual. While I am sure there are lots of others building train layouts for their grandchildren, that itself does not represent the majority of those building model train layouts.
Even more so, regardless of motive, it is unsual for most in the HO scale hobby to be single brand loyal. This is true mainly because no one brand offers every product desired or necessary, and even speaking of just locomotives, most peoples interests are not satisfied by the selection offered by just one brand.
In fact, the HO hobby was built on the idea of interchangeablity between brands.
A great many modelers see this hobby as an adult persuit that involves recreating a specific place in time on a specific railroad - no one manufacturer has ever offered all the necessary/desired products to fulfill that goal.
MTH makes very high quality products loaded with high tech features - BUT, they are new to HO trains, and come from the world of three rail O gauge trains where single brand loyalty is more common and modeling motives and interests are often more casual, or more in the vain of collecting. There are only three or four brands is O gauge, there are dozens in HO.
They have brought that approach to HO, but only with limited success. Their control system, no matter how good, is of no value or interest to those of us who already have large fleets of other brands of locos on our layouts. I am only 11 years younger than you, but I had 100 locos and had been in this hobby 40 years before MTH ever made an HO train or offered their control system to be used with that HO train.
Myself, and countless others like me are not throwing away years of work and expense to switch to MTH, so their unwillingness to be fully compatable leaves them out in the cold for most in this hobby.
DCC has been the one command control system that has dominated model trains, it is a little more than 20 years old and still only enjoys about a 50% market share. Many modelers still use DC or other systems.
So to most of us, it is not brand X vs brand Y - we buy both, and like both - we don't buy MTH because it does not play well with others - kind of like APPLE years ago............
Your problem is with MTH, as you found out, they are not much help.
You may not realize this, but this is a very small industry. You called Digitrax, their total staff is likely less than two dozen people, maybe less. You are not talking to companies with the resources of Microsoft or Apple, and you are likely the only person who has asked how to make their product work with MTH.
We know MTH is not sharing information with anyone, so Digitrax has no reason to go out and buy a bunch of MTH product at retail and try to make it work with their products - it is a zero market for them.
Years ago I worked in this industry, I managed a train department in a hobby shop, helped a lot of new people get started. I also met a great number of people in this industry. It is still today just a "cottage industry" for the most part. World wide you can count the train brands on one hand that are part of a publicly held company, most are amazingly small operations. Even MTH is just an office and warehouse in an industrial park about 40 miles from me - that and a lot of contracts with factories overseas........
Until recenty - like in the last 15-20 years - the HO hobby was one that required a pretty high level of building and craftsman skills on the part of the user. Now it still offers that, but also offers more of the "ready to go" type of high quality products - like MTH and others.
But compatablity is key - and MTH still does not get that.
Good luck to you,
Brendan I feel your pain about customer service. Like presidential campaigns, it's not the way it used to be. The guy in the Verizon store, unapologetically yawns in my face when I walk in to buy a $600 Iphone. The roofer who replaced roofs on my mother and my house, will nor return calls about an unrelated gutter problem.
I'm 64 and getting back into model railroading after a long hiatus. I am strongly leaning to DCC, at this point nothing is certain.
In forums, it's common for people to ignore what you want, and tell you what they would do. I am not going to do that.
Dave Hikel has posted in the past about DCS, he has not posted in a year, but you might give him a shout. This thread discusses DCS problems including reversing loops. I confess I did not read the whole thing, but maybe something in there would be helpful to you.
PS you will be on moderation so you don't sell us any ruskie brides until you get 10 posts. Then you can respond in real time.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
BigDaddy Brendan I feel your pain about customer service. Like presidential campaigns, it's not the way it used to be. The guy in the Verizon store, unapologetically yawns in my face when I walk in to buy a $600 Iphone. The roofer who replaced roofs on my mother and my house, will nor return calls about an unrelated gutter problem. I'm 64 and getting back into model railroading after a long hiatus. I am strongly leaning to DCC, at this point nothing is certain. In forums, it's common for people to ignore what you want, and tell you what they would do. I am not going to do that. Dave Hikel has posted in the past about DCS, he has not posted in a year, but you might give him a shout. This thread discusses DCS problems including reversing loops. I confess I did not read the whole thing, but maybe something in there would be helpful to you. ">http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/232272.aspx[/url] PS you will be on moderation so you don't sell us any ruskie brides until you get 10 posts. Then you can respond in real time.
">http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/232272.aspx[/url]
So here we are 4 years after this thread was started. MTH still does not have a reverser and still does not offer the retrofit decoders Dave Hikel talked about for years, and him, and the other MTH "experts" have generally not been heard from in a while?
Seems to reinforce one of two positions:
One, MTH is not doing as well in HO as they expected/hoped and has put such development on the back burner, especially since the model train market seems slow right now.
OR, MTH has resigned themselves to the idea that they will never break into the serious HO modeler market with their control system and they figure their typical "casual user type customer" simply will not need reversers or decoders for other brands of locos.
It is not a matter of people ignoring what you want, they just know from experiance that it does not exist, or cannot be done that way - so they offer alternate solutions.
I love building model trains, been doing it since age 12. But if I was just getting into this hobby today, I would have second thoughts based on the availability of products, the way it is distributed/marketed, and the emphasis on buying expensive ready made products rather than building things.
MTH does not understand the "total" of the HO hobby, or they are so arrogant as to think they can reshape it to their liking. In any case they have missed great numbers of sales by their lack of full compatibility with existing HO control protocols.
Thank you to all who have responded. Thank you to Big Daddy for pointing me to a particular thread. I had actually read it, but I was unable to look at the layout in question because the links didn't work.
I am not a lifelong model railroad guy. My whole desire is to do something fun and constructive with the grandkids. I have no axe to grind and I can appreciate the fact that others are coming from different places than I am and have a history that goes back decades. I can easily understand the conclusions that others have arrived at based upon their experiences with vendors - MTH in particular. All that being said, I still have a unresolved problem.
Rereading the Dave Hikel thread was helpful. I also found one review on Amazon by someone who was successful using the Bachmann E-Z Command Reverse Loop Module with his MTH DCS HO layout. I actually thought I might have gotten this resolved until I looked at a picture of the Bachmann unit. It has 2 sets of identical wires - one for input from the main line and one for output to the inside of the loop. The new problem is that at the end of those wires are molded connectors that plug into Bachmann track. For my Atlas HO Code 83 Snap Track I would have to cut one connector off of the end of each wire. I do not know if it matters. I don't know if the wires have to be conncected to their respective tracks in any particular way (what is the + and what is the -). To make matters worse the molded connectors that would plug into the Bachmann unit can be flipped - there is no one way to plug a connector into the Bachmann unit.
If anybody has an answer to this I would greatly appreciate hearing it.
I want to be very clear - I think MTH is very irresponsible not to have a answer to this question, but that doesn't help me. I think the MTH dealers should also have an answer to this question, but that doesn't help me. I think other hobbiests have legitimate frustrations and angers, but that doesn't help me,
I was never good with a VCR and I don't have a smartphone because it would drive me crazy and I am not willing to put in the time to learn how to really control a smartphone. On the other hand, I am quite adept at dealing with computers and computer hardware and software. I am very informed when it comes to networking and IT issues. I have been building custom computers for some 20 years. I have tackled computer related problems and have dealt with vendors, retailers and consumers who all had various axes to gring. That being said, I have always been able to find a solution when confronted with a problem. It wasn't always easy or doable in a short period of time, but I always got it done. In my field there was someone somewhere who knew something and was willing to shrae the information. There were books to read. There are no books I knowof that address DCS HO.
The true culprit here is MTH. I need the Lone Ranger or I need the villagers to rise up as they did in the Magnificant Seven and work together to deal with the problem. In the meantime I will plug away and pass on whatever I find. If someone has the answer to the Bachmann molded plug question this issue might finally be put to rest.
Happy Easter. Thanks again for your responses.
It's hard to believe they offer no native solution to a reverse loop. Do they think all 2 rail modelers only build only simple ovals? A reverse loop is a common element in even basic 3 rail layouts, of course there is no polarity issues with 3 rail, which could explain their mentality, but controlling reverse loops has been around since the beginning for 2 rail DC and DCC. Wiring it like DC should work fine, using a toggle switch. Electro-mehcnical solutions that work with DC (and DCC) should work - using switch machine contacts and so forth. They key to using an automatic device is how the DCS signal works. If it is a bipolar signal like DCC, then you most likely can reverse the polarity (phase in this case) under a running loco and nothing will happen - that's how it works with DCC. Next up is how fast their short circuit protection operates - the PSX-AR is very fast, but if the DCS short protection is equally as fast, the PSX-AR might not be able to reverse. But who will buy these things and conduct all the tests? The DCC companies have zero interest - the 2 rail DCS market is so miniscule they would never sell enough of their products to those people to justify any effort to look into it. And MTH has no interest in selling some other manufacturer's product to their users, so they aren;t about to do it.
MTH pretty much doesn't care if their locos operate well on standard DC or DCC - as Sheldon states, they are more into the collector mentality. They don't care if you buy one of their locos and then run it a few minutes before giving up in frustration and displaying it on a shelf. You still bought it, that's good enough.
It's not that their products are bad - the set of FA's I have is very nice, definitely not "toy train" in details. It's the little things - the only slight compatibility with DCC, the absolutely useless remote control couplers (as in the latest MR review - you have to slam into a standing car at high speed to close the knuckles) - at least they do include a set of Kadees as replacements so you can change those out, etc. Each release seems to support more and more DCC Cvs, but you STILL can't adjust sound volumes (other than the master) without DCS. The sound going mute after a power interruption and then requiring a whole restart sequence is exceptionally annoying. Best bet if the model appeals to you is to get the DC versions, when offered, and then use them as-is on a DC layout or install a standard DCC decoder for DCC. I can't complain, for the price I got my FA set for, I can rip out the MTH DCS electronics and put in good sound decoders and still have spent less than the list price of the sound units - but then one has to wonder why they were selling the sound equipped ones so cheap in the first place? But you can ask that of many items you find on eBay.
Brendan Buschi I also spoke to a tech at Digitrax. I was asking about their AR1 unit. The tech was hostile and angry with me for asking the question. I think he did not like the fact that I was using MTH equipment. He was unique in terms of the people I called. If I had a component that could work with a competitor's equipment I would readily and happily make it known. A sale is a sale.
After some of the stunts MTH has pulled, in both the press and with "legal maneuvers", I am surprised that only the Digitax tech was a little testy...
Unfortunately, not many have bought the full DCS system, for a variety of reasons. I myself have not, as having one expensive brand of control system to run only a handful of one expensive brand of locomotives, and needing another control system for all of my other locomotives, regardless of brand, and price point, seemed foolish. Maybe I just didn't drink the right koolaid...
Supporting a bully was also not high on my list, and, MTH's "my way or no way" fits my definition of a bully, before we get into the stunts I referenced earlier.
My relevant information, on DCS being a proprietary system, that only MTH can use, is this: When you design something to not work with competitors products, competitors will not like you. Nor will consumers who try to make it work anyway. You will refuse to test it with any competitors products, for compatibility issues. (Or you do, but only to make sure it is not compatible.) You will also tend to refuse to divulge how said proprietary system works, for fear that some might reverse engineer your product, take the good things from it, and make those good things work with your competitors products that you specifically refused to work with, thereby putting you out of business. (Several examples of proprietary systems going under, some due to said issue of someone figuring out how to make it work with competitors equipment, cheaper than you sell yours.)
While I hope you can find a way to make it work, and for MTH to make more things work so they can gain more customers, like a non-proprietary control system for instance, I am not going to hold my breath.
I just do not see it working, as it is a MTH only proprietary product, and they do not offer a auto-reversing unit.
Best chance, a totally dead, manual reversing section like DC wiring used to use, before the auto-reversing equipment came about.
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.